Lostwatch: One Step Forward, One Step Back

Not to toot my own horn, but what actually tipped me off to the flashback-iness of Jin's story was how he freaked out at the guy who stole his cab. My friends just thought he was being funny -- but it seemed to me like he actually meant it. And as Jin himself would have acknowledged in the episode, he probably did.

I am, however, a little confused. The promos for last night said the last of the Oceanic 6 would be revealed. So: Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Kate & Sun... does this mean that Aaron is the 6th? Can't be Ben, but those are the only other two we've seen off the island.

At least next week's episode is aptly named.

@Matt: I was assuming Aaron was the 6th. But that raises the question: why is Michael (and Walt) NOT part of the Oceanic 6? What becomes of them?

Also interesting is the fact that Sun kept on asking for Jin even he was persumably dead or was it just to build the suspense for the ending??

And there were the 8 who survived, but only 6 who made it. So depending on what the story is about Aaron, one of the two could be Claire. Maybe Jin is the other? Unless the story is that Sun was pregnant before the crash.

I was pretty disappointed in this episode, mainly for the fact that the only reason there was a Jin flashback was to throw in the big "reveal" that he was dead at the end. For anyone who watches Robot Chicken, I was almost expecting the M. Night Shyamalan puppet to come out and exclaim "What a twist!".

Excellent point about Juliet behaving like Jack, James. I was hoping Sun would do more than just slap here in the face just for how self-righteous she was.

@ skilgannon, Sun addressed that at the end of the episode: she was drugged up for the pain of child birth. She tells Jin's tombstone that the doctor told her that she was calling for him. She seemed amused but saddened by this, a reaction I think seems reasonable to read at face value.

The Jin tombstone has got to be a cover for either a) Jin still being alive, or b) Jin getting killed before they get off the island. The date of death is 9/22/04 which if I'm not mistaken is the date of the crash? Also I'm really hoping that the person who dies next week is not Jin, otherwise it'll be two "Big Surprises" in a row that aren't actually surprises at all...

Was this a rerun?

Co-star teased after weeks of hearing his/her voice only to die after 5 minutes of screen time - seen it.

Flashforward that only works if the flashforwardee is "so high on drugs they forget someone was dead!" - seen it. (For pete's sake showrunners, out of 5 flashforwards you've now used this gambit twice. Let's see a little creativity!)

But seriously, a pretty fluff episode. How few sentences can I summarize it in:

Sun gets off the Island and has her child safely; Jin dies before he makes it to the outside world.
Michael is indeed Ben's spy on the boat, but the boaters are at least pretending they don't know who he actually is.
The freighterers are committing suicide for some reason.

So, um, 3 sentences.

Re: the suicide bug, I like Rousseau's group dying of the consciousness bug and the freighterers dying of a different malady, probably psychic visions by Walt or the Whisperers.

And the order looks to be, from earliest to latest:
Sun
Kate
Hurley
Jack

Sayid is unknowable, given the lack of context.

I really don't think Jin is "dead."

@James - you asked why Sun was talking to a tombstone if Jin was alive, but just on the island -- why couldn't she just talk to a picture?

I'm thinking Sun "knows" that she is being "watched," and to keep Jin safe on the island, she has to maintain appearances and the facade that Jin is dead. That includes visiting his grave with the newborn child (Abbadon's people were "watching"?), AND explains her "slip-up", Tom Shaw, as to why she called out Jin's name -- not that she was drugged up, but because she knows he's not really dead. (In fact, her "talk" with the grave might have been for the benefit of spies "listening" in on her conversation.)

Also, Tom Shaw, if Sun's flash forward is the "earliest" in time, it makes sense that she (and Hurley) would be very paranoid about keeping up appearances so as to not tip-off any "spies" that there were any other survivors.

Oh, and James -- that was CLEARLY Expose on television in Sun's apartment. I imagine that in lieu of Nikki's death, the show got a boost of popularity.

Are we clear on who the Oceanic 6 are now? Because I don't feel we are...Kate, Jack, Sayid, Hurley, Sun and...?

Aaron?
Ji Yeon?
Michael?
Walt?
Someone else?

@Tom Shaw, when was the first time the flashforwardee was so high they forgot someone was dead? Are you talking about Jack? I just assumed that his comments were the writers telling us that his dad isn't actually dead.

We don't necessarily know that Michael is Ben's man on the boat. I want him to be, because Michael pisses me off, and so does Ben, so they naturally go together, but it'd be an interesting (though not unexpected) twist that Michael isn't Ben's man.

If you generalize enough, you can bring any episode down to a few sentences. I won't try to say that this episode didn't start off slow, but I thought it picked it up and redeemed itself by the end.

My gut is telling me to trust the captain. Mainly I get that because (presumably) Ben's man said to not trust the captain, but he also seems to be very candid with Sayid and Desmond (though if he knows as much as we think he knows, why doesn't he know who Desmond is or anything about him?). On the other hand, the captain isn't exactly crying over his suicidal crew. With what we've been told by Daniel and the captain, it looks like it's Widmore's call on who stays and who goes.

Here's what I'm thinking at this point: at the end of Season 4, Widmore talks to the survivors and asks who wants to leave. 6 people want to go, and Jin's already dead. They need to say that Jin survived the initial crash to get Sun pregnant (it's not exactly hard math to figure out when she got pregnant), but since everyone else wants to stay and not be bothered, they say they all died. The present of season five is what we're now seeing as flashforwards, and the Six need to work to get back to the island to set things right (Season 6). I can't explain the second dead person for their story yet, but we've still got plenty of season 4 :)

I'm not going to try to take full credit for that... my good buddy Dave floated the theory by me a few weeks ago (with regard to seasons 5 and 6, not the Widmore/Jin parts), and I'm buying into it more and more now. I just don't like the future they're showing us, so I'm hoping it doesn't happen.

@Chaddogg, I think Jin's definitely dead. They couldn't tell the whole story, but after everything Sun and Jin have been through, they've both chosen to stick with each other through thick and thin so far... suddenly Jin feels like staying on the island? Those are some pretty darn good fake tears, too.

I'm pretty much with Tom Shaw on this one, weak sauce.
also @ Dave- I think the capt did know who Desmond was. "Oh yeah, you know him..." Smirk. Also he knew Sayid's last name. And I think out wonderful friends in the ABC promo dept pretty much tipped us off that Mike/Kevin is Ben's man. It was a snippet of convo between Locke and Ben that gave it away, but i was pretty well in my cups at that point so i don't remember it verbatim.

Wouldn't it be wierd if Looking Glass station had to 'sides'. One on the island side of the barrier, and one on the seaward side... maybe around there that freighter is?

@ Tom Shaw: Some context for when Sayid's flash-forward fits into the timeline — there seems to be a pretty good chance that either Sayid or Ben is in the coffin in Through the Looking Glass. Who else that got off the island could have died that Jack, but no one else, would go to their funeral?

Any other thoughts on who that could be now?

@Dave - The captain does know about Desmond, going so far as to call him Mr. Hume. He just wasn't going to discuss the intricacies of the situation regarding the fact that Penny, the daughter of his boss, is looking for the island as well.

I personally don't think that Jin is dead.

I do think that Christian Shepard is dead. I mean, people refuse to believe that it's possible that the reason Christian wasn't in the coffin was because the people at the airline didn't allow it to happen. Christian was a bit of a mess of a human being. If it all turns out to be an act, well, that's a little bit silly. Of course, in the event that DOES happen, it could surprise me. But I'm still in the "he's dead" camp.

What the heck?

No mention of the fact that LIBBY jumped off the boat wearing a bunch of chains? Or was I seeing something completely wrong?

@Ashley, that was Regina who we'd heard on the sat phones a few times.

@carlos and Seanny, I'm going to have to watch the scene again. I just go the impression that the captain's reaction was more a sarcastic, "Oh, you know one of the richest and most powerful men in the world? That's amazing!" Kind of how we would react if he had said Bill Gates instead of Charles Widmore.

I really just need to get up early Fridays and watch the episode again before work :)

I'd like to field opinions on how Michael got to be on the boat.

If I'm not mistaken, at the end of season 2 Ben told Michael to head a certain way because then he'd run into a shipping lane (or something like that) we'd he could be rescued. Because no one really knows where the island is, Widmore's frieghter could have been trolling around for a while trying to find it and could have picked up Micheal. I'm not saying it did happen, but it's feasable. But if they did scoop Michael and WAAAAAALT! from the middle of the Pacific, why would they give him a janitorial job? Even if Michael changed his name, he'd still have a heck of job explaining how he came to be in a boat in the middle of nowhere.

So if Widmore's boat didn't pick him up, how did he get to land? That leaky little tub Ben gave him didn't look seaworthy enough to make a long voyage. But if he did make it to land with some fake passports (Ben had quite a lot, so it's not out of the question that he could get some for michael and Walt), how did he get a job on the boat so quickly? One of the Boaties said their last port was Fiji (is that right?), so presumably that's the closest place Miachael could have landed.

I'm going with a comment from yesterday's Lost post: that Michael and Walt traveled back in time. That solves 2 problems: that he's not one of the 8 survivors or part of the O6 (because he was never on the plane) and Walt's growth spurt. If he traveled back in time he'd be a few years older.

Something no else appears to have commented on...

When Hurley goes to see Sun in the flashforward, he asked her if any of the "others" (presumably any of the other Oceanic 6) had come, and she says no. Then Hurley said something that was rather strange to me. He said, "Good." And from the look on his face, it seemed like he really didn't want any of the others there. Based on what we've seen of Hurley in the flashforwards, it seems to me that he disagreed with the decision re: the "cover up" from the get go. I think by the end of Season 6, Hurley's going to lead the charge to "set things right," and Sun is going to be the first to help him.

And IMO Jin's not dead, something happened to him to keep him on the island. I agree that they probably wouldn't choose to split, so I'm guessing it was involuntary on Jin's part to stay. Perhaps, like Michael, it just comes down to having to doing anything to protect his child, so he has to sacrifice himself (by staying behind) to get Sun off the island.

Oh, and Dave, the second "dead" person from the crash could easily be Claire, to explain the presence of Aaron. Wouldn't people have to know that Kate wasn't pregant (or at least not that far along) when she got on the plane?

Did anyone else catch the title of the "upside-down" book (Survivor Chancellor). In this book, written by Jules Vern (20,000 Leagues Under the Sea), the Chancellor carried eight passengers and twenty crew members. By the end, only eleven people (five passengers and six crew) remained alive. I am wondering if this is a hint at future developments to the crew of Widmore's boat? This would lead to the Oceanic 6, but who else would join them? Just some thoughts, if anyone would like to help me out, or let me know if I'm crazy.

I read that there’s going to be a bit of a break between next weeks and when the final 5 start up again. And they’d said that this next episode has a cliff hanger ending (this was part of the “Well it’ll be a mini-mini season but look a cliff hanger finale just like you’re used to…”) so I suspect one of my friends is right and we're about to get punched in the face next week. And I think we need a punch in the face just to wake up from last nights crap. Some people seems to be legitimately touched by the whole Sun/Jin story line, so maybe he and I are just cynical young men but god theirs is a boring story line. This is almost as a big a, “Aw, really?” as when we found out Kate’s useless boring ass made it off the island too. Seriously, fully half the Oceanic 6 are people with boring/pointless story lines (Aaron has inherited his pointlessness from his biological mother). Hopefully Sayid and Hurley will continue to bring the awesome and balance out the sucking entertainment black hole that is Kate and Sun.
Man, how cool would it have been to have never heard anything about the return of Michael, or seen the actors names in the credits, or heard that his return would be "fairly awesome",or had abc basically say to us “Hey Michael’s back next week and he’s Ben’s man on the boat!”? Just picture it, Sayid and Desmond looking into a roach filled room with brain paint all over the wall. The Doc calls down the hall to Johnson to come clean it. And slowly from the shadows Michael’s face emerges and he introduces himself as Kevin Johnson.
Your jaw drops open, you blink twice, you look around from side to side, your mouth moves but no sound comes out, then your brain explodes.
But no no, they had to telegraph it from a mile away. And instead of brain paint all over my living room all I’m left to think is “Yup, there’s Michael…”

I hadn't really considered that Jin may not be dead, but somehow otherwise detained. If the latter is the case, perhaps the same thing happened to Claire to separate her from Aaron?

@carlos, I agree on Michael. It would have been nice to be genuinely surprised about something that huge. Part of me wants Ben's man to be someone different, just for the didn't-see-that-coming factor, but as I said above... I view Michael and Ben as bad guys, and I'd like to view them as bad guys together.

I disagree on Sun and Kate. Kate was such a major player early on that I think there's got to be more to her story that we don't know about. There's got to be some kind of Claire-Jack connection between Kate and someone else that's relevant to the end of the show. As for Sun, I think her storyline will be very important because of her father and his Hanso connections. There's just so much going on that we forget who Sun's father is and how powerful he is.

@Dave, yeah thats a good point about Sun's dad, and that could lead to some really interesting stories down the road. But here's the thing, instead of the faux Jin flashforward (my girl friend figured it out by the 20 min mark) we could have spent time with Mr Paik, or maybe had some of his shadowy "advisors" around or something to indicate that something larger was happening around Sun. If her pops is one of the most powerful business men in Korea why is she giving birth alone?
As for Kate, well ... it would be nice if you were right and something large and significant did happen surrounding her but to this point her flashbacks and flashforwards have basically all been the same (and boring) and excepting the Aaron reveal at the end of her flashforward they haven't advanced anything new about her sicne "What Kate Did" in season 1. i have fully given up hope that kate will do anything beyond being the one who keeps doing something stupid and cocking everything up.
But here's to hoping you turn out to be right on both points

My first flashback tipoff was the phone Jin was using. It was 1990's ghetto. This was significant because I remember being dismayed by Jack's fancy phone at the end of last season and thinking the Lost props people had screwed up. This time I busted them. Those Koreans are like cell phone ninjas. Noway anyone in Korea is using a phone like that in 2006.

The confirmation came by way of the dragon because I have a child who was born in the year of the dragon, 2000. No way was it 2012.

I was pretty disappointed in this episode, mainly for the fact that the only reason there was a Jin flashback was to throw in the big "reveal" that he was dead at the end.

THANK YOU. Unlike Jack's surprise flashforward at the end of season 3, Jin's flashback didn't tell us anything we didn't already know about the character. It was a cheap trick that sullied what was otherwise a pretty good episode. I liked most all the stuff that wasn't in a flashforward or a flashback-that-looks-like-a-flashforward-hahaha-gotcha.

Would Jin's flashback become any more significant if we found out the Hansos do significant business in China?

@carlos, I find myself thinking more and more that this is the point that the show needs to be resolving things, not introducing more new things, but a buddy reminded me this morning: we're about halfway through season 4 of 6. There's still plenty of time for them to drop the bombshells (and by all means, a Paik-Hanso-Widmore merging of plots would be a bombshell, no matter how insignificant of a meeting it would appear to be).

I'm glad I caught up at the start of this season, because season 2 would have driven me crazy. I'm just thinking that my impatience now is what I would have felt in season 2.

Well its almost time to go home mountain time and it look like this weeks Lost watch is about 50-60 posts below where it normally is at this time. I think that says all you need to know about last nights Lost.

Well, I missed the timely discussion of this episode and while my comments will probably go unread, allow me to share them.

1) I didn't care for this episode. I liked all the stuff with Sayid and Desmond on the boat (those two are great together. Both stoic alpha males/hopeless romantics with ruggedly handsome beards. What I disliked was the pacing of the dialog. The long pauses kept me finishing the characters sentences:

Sun: Pack food for two days.
Jin: Why?
PAUSE
Me at home, and Sun, simultaneously: We're going to Locke's camp

Come on guys, you're better than that.

2) So Michael's a janitor named Kevin? Why do Dad's looking for a change in their and their child's life always end up as Janitors? First Ben's dad and Now Michael/Kevin?

3) What if Jin and Sayid are both alive in the real world, but working for Ben as a killer and are the two of the 8 that didn't survive in the "official" story? Ben could be blackmailing Jin into violent service so that Sun may be protected. I smell a two-man death squad in a future flash-forward

4) I want to know more about Regina too. That captain seemed a little too candid, kind of like how the Others always seemed candid when we first met them. Also, when Abbaddon was giving orders to Naomi, he only specified that Frank, Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte had to stay alive, he didn't mention the crew of the ship at all. They seem expendable, why?

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