When Extremists Attack

all I can say is...who are you and what have you done with Joe Klein??!!!

And I mean that as a compliment. really.

Said it before I'll say it again: Israel gots da bomb, why do we need to protect them from Iran?

KABOOM!

You are doing a great service to America, Joe.

It is instructive to say the least, to be on the recievng end of the Republican hate machine. Many of us have experienced it for 30 years. The Neoconservatives are just the newest infestation to use those tactics.

It sounds like you possibly ARE familiar with the documents available at www.newamericancentury.org.

I know the site is defunct, but hopefully, others will take the time to look at them. They are indeed instructive and confirm, by their own hand, the substance of Joe's message!

Thank you, Joe.

Now, if more folks of your stature would speak out against this "attack Iran" stupidity, maybe we can avoid another disaster.

Cookie Puss:

On top of it, whatever we may think of the Iranians, they are NOT stupid. If they wanted to commit national suicide, why would they wait to go after Israel, anyway?

Joe, I think you're giving yourself way to much credit wrt your (alleged) opposition to the Iraq invasion, but...

Good for you for admitting it, and for these really quite bold statements today. You should get together with Glenn Greenwald about this, and I am serious. He has posted similar thoughts about neocon Israelis.

Good job, Joe. Keep it up.

I agree with you but I think it's unfair to extremists to say that the problem with the Commentary crowd is that they're extremists. The problem with them is that they're wrong-headed, unethical, and generally deranged.

Likudnik does not equal "jews". Most jewish americans are not neo-cons.

Most Israeli Jews are not wingnuts like Bibi. It's so sad that this even needs to be mentioned.

I should also add: this is truly brave and patriotic of you. Seriously. These guys are nasty -- look what they did to Juan Cole -- and standing up to them does take guts.

I don't know trifecta, I've been on ME blogs, and believe me, the Likudniks aren't averse to hateful commentary, and even overtly racist statements.

Most I've seen though, defend the "settlement" activity solely on religious grounds, which isn't a valid argument for doing what they are doing.

Wow. Really good. You're an America hater now Joe, no looking back.

Clearly the MTP performance still stings, and that's a good thing, it'll keep you straight.

You've made powerful enemies today Joe, take care.

Joe: if you find yourself comfortable in your own skin on Iraq and Iran then you should act accordingly. The Neocons and their Israeli supporters are a largely discredited group. It does not mean they don't have access to those in power. But they have diminished their capacity to push their agenda forcefully

My advice, for its modest worth is - be true to yourself and your values. Stand up for what is right for America and do no harm.

In the long run one's personal integrity is the only thing that one will always carry to the end of one's days. Let it be said of you: Joe Klein spoke the truth and accepted the consequences.

Good luck.

Joe-

Nice use of the microphone.

Just remember that extension of Godwin's Law: When people start calling you a self-hating Jew, they have officially lost the argument.

If anyone has ever been to a ME blogsite, they serve as a warning to just how nasty they can be.

Right wing websites are bad, but I have NEVER experienced worse than the treatment one can recieve on one of those sites!

That was from the heart and also from some serious thinking--nice post, Joe. We gentiles who agree with you are often reluctant to speak out for fear of being labeled insensitive, or, well, you know what labels those flavor of bullies like to use.

Thanks, and I seriously pray and hope for peace, security, and happiness for Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians...all of the Middle Eastern people.

On a small, small thing--I think a casus belli that is hidden is called a proschema.

"But I am not willing to grant these ideologues the anonymity they seek. "

Name names, Joe.

Bravo.

Someone here, I forget who, said if someone isn't calling you an anti-semite, you're not doing it right. You're doing it right now Joe.

Joe Klein - Very, very well said. And - with all sincerity - thank you.

I would like to live in a world where hateful extremists like those who post at Commentary could be safely ignored but the lessons of the Bush administration and the status of modern conservatism indicate that along that path lies tragedy. I remember trying to explain to people about the PNAC, its goals and how their membership was nearly interchangeable with the men who made up the Bush administration. I remember being called a conspiracy nut because I was able to give an early prediction of what would happen in the Middle East.

They must be called out early, often and by name. You have been one of the few pundits who have been willing to name names and I encourage you to continue to do so. It is a matter of accountability of which you should have no fear if you are truly confident of your punditry product.

Another thing for which I must give you credit: In the past there was a 'palpable' (sorry couldn't resist) feeling that whenever you wrote a post that was critical of conservatives - no matter how extreme those conservatives might be - that you would then find a reason to write something critical of Democrats/Progressives in order to achieve some kind of 'balance'. You have not done so in quite some time and I wanted to make sure you knew that it was appreciated. Sometimes the conservatives simply deserve to be called out for their insanity.

Nice work Joe.

"Happily, these people represent a very small sliver of the Jewish population in this country."

I believe this. I also think that those outside of this sliver have not been stomping these Likudniks down vociferously enough. You're obviously starting to do your part, but the silence seems deafening sometimes from the mainstream Jewish community. What Likud and the Neocons preached is being preached in your name, whether you like it or not.

trifecta says: "Most Israeli Jews are not wingnuts like Bibi. It's so sad that this even needs to be mentioned."

Obviously one side isn't getting it's message across. Mainstream Jews hardly lack outlets in this country. Speak up, y'all.

This may be the best post you have ever written.

What I think has happened is that Joe has been brought into direct contact with what the Black community has experienced for about thirty years.

It is unbelievably poisonous, and the sooner it is extirpated from the American political scene, the better...

I might have misunderstood what trifecta said.

I second what BrendanB said.

Passionate and honest... Bravo!

bitterpill8 - You wrote: "The Neocons and their Israeli supporters are a largely discredited group. It does not mean they don't have access to those in power. But they have diminished their capacity to push their agenda forcefully"

I wish that this was true but, unfortunately, the McCain campaign staff and roster of advisors is rife with familiar names. And those Neocons that can hide their scales well enough are featured as prominent thinkers on FoxNews and make appearances on the other networks as well. Apparently, in todays media environment, the only way to not be asked back is to...well...I am sure there is something.

I do not know what it will take to rid our airwaves of the hateful insanity but I do know that the only way to keep them out of positions of power and influence in government is to elect Barack Obama. People may make noises about a lack of experience but I prefer that to the experiences absorbed by McCain's advisors.

Question for Joe about the lede of this piece:

I have now been called antisemitic and intellectually unstable and a whole bunch of other silly things by the folks over at the Commentary blog. They want Time Magazine to fire or silence me.

I have read all of the links and all of the links within the links.

Let's put aside the unintentional irony of J-Pod calling anyone intellectually unstable for a moment, and move to the part about their undue influence to hurt people's careers (e.g. Rob Malley). Have the folks over at Commentary, anyone in the small population you define as neoconservative Jews, to your knowledge, either directly or by hearsay, ever done or said anything to get Time Magazine to silence or fire you?

If yes, could you please elaborate?

If no, does that mean that you are referring to J-Pod's closing sentence when you use the phrase, "They want Time Magazine to fire or silence me."

This is not a gotcha question. I'm just trying to get at the scope of the organization of the opposition that you are facing.

They don't seem to me to be a past phenomona, either. AIPAC is just as strong as ever, and at the very least, it's agenda is parallel with the Likudniks, last I heard.

Joe, ya know, this might be a great opportunity to write something for dead tree Time about Randy Scheunemann and his role as McCain's foreign policy adviser. Go to TPM for a primer if you need one:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/mccain_advisors_horrifying_ira.php

One of the better "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore" statements I've read.

Bravo.

I decided to update myself a little bit in regard to the New American Century Project, a think tank that was started in 1997.

Many of the older documents cited were posted on their website. Since the site itself is defunct and minimally maintained, I offer this instead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

GREAT idea, Cincinnatus.

I do not get the impression that the Likudniks would respond to stomping by their fellows in the Jewish community.

What strikes me here in the blog and in the comments is how compressed the Jewish population seems to be viewed. It is vastly more diverse in both politics and religious theology than one would discern from this.

The neocons are a small fraction of that population and not limited to it. A very well educated and active part to be sure, but still a fraction. The Iraq fiasco may very be their demise, or at least reorientation.

That term neocon is tossed about as if it is understood by all. Thanks in part to the MSM, it is not. I would venture that the majority of Americans, or possibly Jews, could not begin to describe the history and evolution of the movement.

Joe, I suspect that you may be overstating your case. Whether that is the true or not, I support you fully.

There really needs to be more soul searching accross the board about Iraq, and it sure isn't limited to neocons, or Little Bush, or the Congress. It needs to be all. The trick is having "all" to even recognize that it is needed.

Go Joe!

BTW, I find it interesting that the same people who are horrified and offended by someone suggesting they have "dual loyalties" are the first to try and suggest that Obama does (either to African-Americans as somehow apart from the rest of us or somesort of odd Muslim ties). BTW, I don't think those folks (or Obama) have dual loyalties. I just think their ideas are wrong and dangerous.

Joe-

Why do you inflate the importance of the Jewish neoconservatives? There are many, many non-Jewish neoconservatives out there. Indeed, they are in positions of much higher power and authority than the Jewish neoconservatives. But you think it's necessary and important to identify certain neoconservatives by their religion. Why? Is it so their arguments will be given less weight? Is it to demonize them? In any case, you're really hung up about their religion for some reason. Shouldn't they be allowed to have opinions irrespective of their religious beliefs? (Unless they invoke their religious beliefs to support the opinions, which none of these nefarious neoconservatives have done.)

Anyway, I must say this is one of the most entertaining posts I have read in some time. What is the crime of those nefarious Jewish neoconservatives? Why, they provided "the intellectual rationale" for the Iraq war. Yes, yes, THAT was the key. That's the reason that the Iraqi war was so popular in 2002 and 2003 -- the "intellectual rationale."

How dare those Jewish neoconservatives argue in favor of what "they think are Israel's best interests [conflated] with those of the United States." They should just shut up, right? But YOU should not be silenced, Joe. You're one of the good ones after all, as you keep reminding us.

Speaking of which, enough with the pity party claiming anybody wants to fire or silence you. All the Commentary crowd has noted is that if you were saying equivalently outrageous things about African-Americans, gays, or any other group you WOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN fired. And rightly so. (Just for fun sometime, try claiming on this blog that Obama is surrounded by and funded by liberal African-Americans who are controlling his policies to the detriment of America. See how that goes.)

This discrepancy just underscores the myth of the all-powerful Israel Lobby. Here's a checklist for you:

Klein says and repeats outrageous things about Jews -- including accusations of dual-loyalty, that they're surrounding and financing a presidential candidate, and helped cause a war -- he suffers no professional repercussions and becomes a hero to some.

Klein speaks in favor of a war against a vicious dictator who repeatedly flauts the U.N. and has sought and used WMDs in the past -- he is villified by the bloggy left until he finally apologizes.

I think it's pretty clear where the power lies nowadays. And it's not with The Jews.

It also occurs to me that here we are, squarely back at the Bush Doctrine of Preemptive War.

You know why all of this seems familiar, Joe. It's because it is. Once again, we are faced with a false argument and a false basis for war. Iran does not currently pose an existential threat to either the US or Israel.

The question must be asked of each candidate for office, will you reject the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war?

The terms for what constitutes and imminent threat must be precisely laid out now, so there should be no mistaking these at some later time.

And J-Pod will have to explain to us how Iran currently poses an existential threat to Israel. I don't give a crap what Ahmedinejad said he wants to do, any more than I care what Saddam said he wants to do. My brother is a matrimonial attorney. If saying that you want to destroy or kill something and doing it were the same thing, most divorced couples would be doing life without parole.

The standard of law in America for murder to ruled as self defense is that someone needs to pose an immediate threat to your well-being or the well being of others. Not a sometime in the future threat. An immediate threat.

Absent an immediate threat, how does preemptive war differ from premeditated murder?

I am really being to think that this blog would work just fine with Joe and KT as the main bloggers and a couple of citizen bloggers selected from the commenters here. When he wants to, Rusty can present the right's position better and generate more conservation than Jay, JNS, AMC and Michael combined. At least Rusty knows what the hell the positions are.

Kudos to you! Never compromise on your principles. I agree with you that a war with Iran would be the worst thing for Israel and USA.

Terrapinion: I take note of your caveat. My view is that we should not lump members of our Jewish community into neat parcels: Likudniks, etc etc. The animation, divergence and political alignments within the Jewish peoples both here and in Israel is a scene to behold. While everyone supports the existence of the State of Israel not every agrees with the settlement excesses.

What I would like to see is that our Jewish citizens understand that US and Israeli interests do not always merge. My modest personal experience with members of the Jewish community is that they understand this.

But the Neocons a la Marty Peretz: now there you have me!

MarcR - you realize Joe Klein is Jewish, right?

Also:
But you think it's necessary and important to identify certain neoconservatives by their religion. Why?

You realize that there are a lot of Jews in Israel, right? That's kind of central to the Middle East situation.

Poor Scotty. He actually thought someone could actually apologize to Bill O'Reilly.

McClellan Backs Down To O’Reilly: ‘I Messed Up,’ ‘You’re The Big Kahuna At Fox News’

Interviewed on MSNBC last week, former White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Fox News pundits and commentators “were useful to the White House,” stating that they were given “talking points” to repeat on air:

Q: Did people say call Sean, call Bill, call whoever? Did you do that as a regular thing?

McCLELLAN: Certainly. Certainly. It wasn’t necessarily something I was doing, but it was something that we at the White House, yes, were doing.

On his radio show yesterday, Bill O’Reilly let loose on McClellan, calling him a “liar” and an “idiot” for saying O’Reilly accepted the talking points. Today, McClellan went on O’Reilly’s show and in a tense back and forth, O’Reilly got McClellan to apologize for the “talking points” statement. “Do you owe me an apology?” O’Reilly asked. McClellan responded:

McCLELLAN: The truth is I messed up. I was specifically not trying to single anyone out, including you. But the way a couple of the questions were phrased in that interview along with my response left things open to interpretation and I should not have let that happen. … I understand why you got upset. … You’re the Big Kahuna at Fox News, and some people tried to paint in a black and white term through a preconceived notion.

Big mistake. More at the link.

http://thinkprogress.org/

Than you, Joe.
Well said.
Keep up the good work!

Klein is one of those comical lunatics who remain shocked that Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan each won 49 out of 50 states ("57 states" according to Barack Obama) because Klein knows not a single person who voted for either Nixon or Reagan.

Great post, keep fighting them. A coward dies a thousand deaths, etc.

I will say though, Joe: part of the problem is the ideal of political correctness, one of the most fascist ideals ever created. And one that the media institutions, the people and culture you work for and inside, had perpetuated for years.

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, how does it feel being unfairly called a bigot? And by people obviously using false victimhood and unaccountability to maintain an equally false narrative? In other words, how do the Beltway/4th estate tactics feel to you? Sort of like a thought-police, no?

"They are also bullies and I'm not going to be intimidated by them."

I appreciate your sensitivity to bullying and intimidation. Calling people names and setting up strawman arguments only to knock them down along with questioning the honesty of the person is cheap.
Well done.
I can only imagine what that's like.
http://time-blog.com/swampland/2007/03/since_you_asked.html

Well said, Joe. And take care.

Thank you.

...hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed and wounded...

And thank you for realistically depicting the scale of Iraqi casualties. Just the subject itself rarely gets a mention.

MarkR,

If we are picking sides, I am on Joe's.

You make cogent points, but diminish them with poison such as...

"What is the crime of those nefarious Jewish neoconservatives? Why, they provided "the intellectual rationale" for the Iraq war. Yes, yes, THAT was the key."

To be brief, in my opinion, yes, the attack was criminal, and yes the biggest boosters for of it were the nefarious Jewish neoconservatives, Wolfowitz, Feith, and Pearl. I would delete "nefarious" and insert "criminal thug".

The Wayback Machine is your friend:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.newamericancentury.org

A few tidbits from October 17, 2001:

Iraq

Peacekeeping, Project Memorandum, Thomas Donnelly, December 19, 2001

Congressional Letter on Iraq, Project Memorandum, William Kristol, December 6, 2001

Why Iraq? Gary Schmitt, Weekly Standard, October 19, 2001

A Cowering Superpower Reuel Marc Gerecht, Weekly Standard, July 30, 2001

Liberate Iraq, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Weekly Standard, May 14, 2001

State of Terror Gary Schmitt, Weekly Standard, November 20, 2000

In Saddam's Future, a Harder U.S. Line, Washington Post, June 3, 2000

Saddam Wins-Again Robert Kagan, Weekly Standard, January 4-11, 1999

How to Attack Iraq Weekly Standard Editorial, November 16, 1998

A Way to Oust Saddam, Robert Kagan, Weekly Standard, September 28, 1998

Wolfowitz Statement on U.S. Policy Toward Iraq, Project Memorandum, Gary Schmitt, September 18, 1998

Statement before the House National Security Committee, Paul Wolfowitz

Project Letter to Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott, May 29, 1998

Adrift in the Gulf, John Bolton, Weekly Standard, March 23, 1998

Kofi Hour, John Bolton, Weekly Standard, March 9, 1998

A 'Great Victory' For Iraq, William Kristol and Robert Kagan, Washington Post, February 26, 1998

Saddam's Impending Victory Robert Kagan, Weekly Standard, February 2, 1998

Bombing Iraq Isn't Enough, William Kristol and Robert Kagan, New York Times, January 30, 1998

Speaking of Iraq Project Article, Washington Times, January 27, 1998

Letter to President Clinton, January 26, 1998

Congress Versus Iraq John Bolton, Weekly Standard, January 19, 1998

The UN Rewards Saddam John Bolton, Weekly Standard, December 15, 1997

As for his use of classic anti-Semitic canards, I am happy to report that the Jewish people will long survive Joe Klein.

The question is, will Time Magazine?

As far as anti-Semitic canards, go, do these people get a permanent pass on Federalist 10 describing anything that they do? It could never apply to them? Ever? Neoconservatives get an irrevocable, permanent pass?

And as for the threat leveled at Time Magazine, it seems to me that they're just reinforcing the very idea about themselves that they're trying to resist.

The rehabilitation of Joe Klein continues.

What you have written here is courageous. It is also --to the best of my ability to research and understand --absolutely true.

May God bless you. There is so much jackal speak.

The Neocons and their Israeli supporters are a largely discredited group. It does not mean they don't have access to those in power.

I know I keep harping on it but the #1 guy who insists that Obama is naive about the Middle East is has as much blood on his hands as anyone you can point to:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/mccain_advisors_horrifying_ira.php

Lobbyist Ban Deep-Sixed?

A while back the McCain put a new rule in place that no one involved in their campaign could be a federal lobbyist or foreign agent. But CBS has an interview out with McCain campaign manager Rick Davis that appears to say that rule is no longer in effect. Asked how many lobbyists work on the campaign, Davis tells Katie Couric: "We don't make it a litmus test for employment at the McCain campaign."

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Good for you, Joe. The neo-cons have been proven to be dangerous and wrong over and over again.

I'll say this about the accusation of intellectual instability: Remember that this is how the Soviets used to try to delegitimize dissidents. They would publicly declare the person insane to discredit them and institutionalize them. The neo-cons have adopted that tactic. They have become what they once claimed to oppose.

Hi: I'm Stupid
My favorite part of the 2008 presidential campaign is watching normally sentient reporters tell me how John McCain is either reticent about talking about his POW experience, or ambivalent, or reluctant, or one of about a hundred other adjectives meant to tell me he doesn't talk about it very much and doesn't like doing so.

Five years as a POW involved a kind of suffering and terror I think very few of us can even comprehend. McCain has every right to talk about it constantly. But let's get real. He does talk about it constantly.

Where to start? Probably half of John McCain's ads contain photographs of either his time as a POW or his home-coming from Vietnam POW captivity. (That says quite a lot.) Those that don't refer to it explicitly refer to it implicitly by referencing sacrifice, heroism, etc. He and his campaign frequently talk about his days as a POW. The candidate frequently makes pseudo-self-deprecating jokes in campaign appearances about his time as a POW.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

For those interested in perusing the remnants of The Project for the New American Century (formerly newamericancentury.org), The Internet Archive has a pretty complete collection of its various versions ranging from 2001 through August of 2007.

Plug http://newamericancentury.org into the Wayback Machine, and you can start browsing.

For their most quoted document (the one wishing for "a new Pearl Harbor"), here's a direct link to the 2001 version.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020205134114/http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

I just came to check if there was anything new here.

Something I missed earlier.

texte...see above.

You gotta check out this ignoramous. He/she is beginning to be so funny to me that I might become as big a follower as I am of Rusty.

On a related note, Joe, Josh Marshall thinks the media should really pay more attention to who the neo-cons who are advising McCain are, specifically Randy Scheunemann. Scheunemann, you'll recall, was a big supporter of Ahmed Chalabi (so was McCain). Chalabi has since turned out to be an Iranian spy.

I agree with Josh on this one. His staff provides a good start. Maybe Time can get in on the act.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/mccain_advisors_horrifying_ira.php

Yeah!

How those idiots got to speak for Jewish Americans, I'll never understand.

One of the great underreported stories is how America's foreign policy tradition was replaced with the Prussian imperial tradition back in the 1930s, by exiles from Germany. How's that for history having a sick sense of humor?

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/07/joe_klein_on_neoconservatives.php

I posted this on the last Klein post, to which it was not especially relevant. It is to this one. I recommend you all read it, it's an interview Joe did with the Atlantic blogger Jeffery Goldberg, and it's excellent.

Way to go, Joe.

I don't know nuthin', dontcha see, but it seems to me this blog concept has been healthy for ol' Joe.

I support Israel, hard. But if someone arbitrarily took my family house a few generations ago for a (at the time) "legitimate" reason, I might harbor a grudge or two.

Just trying to walk a mile in another man's shoes. Pay no attention to me.

GREAT blogpost Joe.

Now please follow up on Randy Scheunemann with the McCain campaign. I'd be interested in reading abut him the dead-tree Time.

Thank you, Joe. This is a critically important topic and a remarkable post.

james:

Whatever DID happen to Rustydog?

Hmmm. I've noted a complete abscense for A4M and Osamish, too.

Maybe I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth...

Ames has hit the nail on the head!

These documents he cites have been there for everyone to see for years, and gives a real insight into the Neocnoservative movement at it's worst.

John O

No problem because Israel has a right to exist. However, until they address a couple problems with their own conduct, they are not likely to ever realize peace.

I might point out that the "settler" movement isn't doing that a "couple generations ago", they are doing it today. Not only are most Palestinians not terrorsts, most Palestinians are like you and me:

They want to keep THEIR homes...

Hey, at least no one shot at you. Silver linings, you know?

Er .. just realized I should clarify that I live in Tennessee, where the shootings at a liberal church have dominated the news ...

SoBeale, is there any hand wringing over the hateful message of some conservatives? Anything along those lines? I'm guessing no.

53_3, Rusty and I only communicate here, so I have no idea where he/she is.

One of our friends has commented on here wondering if his/her absence is related to the shooting of liberals in a chruch in Tennessee (?) by a disgruntled right wingnut. Personally, I wouldn't make light of such eventsd.

Joe, it's incredibly important that you've done this, that you've brought this issue to light.

Thank you.

Good for you, Joe.

"I am not going to make the same mistake twice."

That's really all anybody can ask.

Thank you, Joe. I think all that anyone might have objected to would have been that you seemed unapologetic about what you said heading into Iraq. It's also a little possible that we lumped you in too quickly with a man who said to "Suck. On. This." Thanks for realizing that we need a forceful antiwar voice now. I'm with you, I don't think we're headed to war with Iran. But... I kind of thought we wouldn't really invade Iraq for awhile there.

Anyone who's willing to constantly self-reflect gets my admiration, mostly because it's so rare. And I admire those even more who are willing to say what no one else will, even when they get a lot of heat for it.

Nice work, Joe.

Now mean it this time!

Kudos Joe, and I haven't said that in a very, very long time. Being an enemy of the likes of John Podhoretz should be considered a badge of honor.

Mr. Klein,

A bit of paraphrase from "Schindler's List" -

"He who saves one man, saves the world eternal" - many thanks for your often courageous views (Petraeus, et al) and for this.

You're what we hope all journalists will be, someone who has more information than us and courageously reports it.

Many thanks and God Bless.

Thanks, Joe. You've done the right thing. Your Jewish heritage enables a strong and courageous statement like this. Many of us goyim have known all along about the Jewish cabal behind the assault on Iraq, but we're easily dismissed as 'anti-semitic.' The fact that you have confronted the topic directly really changes the dynamics of the conversation. Bravo!

Good job, Joe. I only wish you've have outed that other Joe, the one from CT, while you were on the subject.

Great piece Joe. I hope in the coming months you can do an article detailing McCain's neocon tendencies, and the underreported fact that his top national security adviser is Chalabi patsy and die-hard neocon Randy Scheunemann. The man does every McCain national security conference call, yet nobody in the media save Josh Marshall have pointed out the implications of this fact.

دردشة ،
دردش ،
دردشات ،
شات ،
دردشه ،
شاتات،
منتديات فن تايم ،
منتدى ،
منتديات ،
دليل مواقع ،
مسجات ،
ماسنجر ،
مسنجر ،
افلام ،
العاب فلاش ،
فلم ،
فيلم ،
انمي ،
مسلسل انمي ،
صور انمي ،
افلام انمي ،
بنات ،
بنات فن ،
منتديات بنات فن ،
فن بنات ،
شباب ،
شباب تايم ،
شباب فن ،
تايم شباب ،
عرب تايم ،
تايم عرب ،
اسلام تايم ،
تايم اسلام ،
فن ،
هانا مونتانا
موقع هانا مونتانا ،
افلام مصرية ،
افلام عربية ،
افلام اجنبية ،
افلام اكشن ،
افلام رعب ،
موقع طيور الجنة ،
طيور الجنة ،
بلايستيشن ،
سوني ،
games،
game،
اكس بوكس ،
العاب اكس بوكس ،
العاب بلايستيشن ،
ثيمات بلايستيشن ،
مكياج ،
ازياء ،
جمال ،
اناقة ،
ستايل ،
ملابس ،
موضة ،
قصيدة ،
قصائد ،
شعر ،
خاطرة ،
خواطر ،
برامج ،
برامج حماية ،
برامج صيانة ،
برامج تحميل ،
برنامج ،
برامج اختراق ،
توبيكات ،
توبيك ،
صرقعة ،
تسلية ،
تسالي ،
وناسة ،
ضحك ،
فرفشة ،
سياحة ،
سفر ،
فنادق ،
تصميم ،
تصاميم ،
فلاش ،
فوتوشوب ،
ادوات فوتوشوب ،
العاب تسالي ،
نيرو ،
نود32 ،
نود 32 ،
برنامج نود 32 ،
فن البنات ،
اشعار مكتوبة ،
كاسبر ،
مكياج 2008 ،
توبيكات صرقعة ،
توبيكات متحركة ،
توبيكات جديدة ،
صور ماسنجر ،
صور مسن ،
بنات الفن ،
خلفيات مسن ،
نوكيا ،
برامج نوكيا ،
العاب نوكيا ،
ثيمات نوكيا ،
مسجات ،
رسائل نصية ،
رسائل حب ،
رسائل غرام ،
رسائل فراق ،
ثيمات ،
جوال ،
جوالات ،
موبايل،
موبايلات ،
ماجي فرح ،
ماغي فرح ،
رزدنت ايفل ،
العاب فيديو ،
الفنانين ،
المغني
، مهند ،
نور ،
مسلسل نور ،
سنوات الضياع ،
ستار اكاديمي ،
الاكاديمية ،
اخبار الفن
، صور فنانين ،
مطربين ،
هيفاء وهبي ،
نانسي عجرم ،
جميلات الفن ،
ممثلة ،
ممثل ،
مغني ،
مطرب ،
صور حوادث ،
صور جرائم ،
صور اغتصاب ،
صور رعب ،
جرائم ،
اخبار ،
سويتش ماكس ،
فلاش ،
اشكال ،
فرش ،
ستايلات ،
سكرابز ،
دورة تعليم فوتوشوب ،
شروحات فوتوشوب ،
دروس فوتوشوب ،
ازياء شباب ،
ملابس شباب ،
سوالف شباب ،
كلام نواعم ،
كلام بنات ،
اطفال ،
عالم الاطفال ،
ملابس اطفال ،
صور ،
سيارات ،
السيارات ،
رياضة،
الرياضة ،
دوري ،
مقاطع فيديو ،
بلوتوث ،
لعبة من سيربح المليون ،
جاليري ،
جاليري فن تايم ،
تحميل ،
رفع ،
مركز رفع ،
مركز تحميل ،
تحميل صور ،
تحميل فلاش ،
صور فن ،
جاليري الصور ،
مكتبة صور ،
sms ،
mms
فديو ،
مقاطع بلوتوث ،
قصص ،
قصة قصيرة ،
حكاية ،
حكايا ،
مسلسل ،
مسلسلات ،
مسلسلات مصرية ،
مسلسلات تركية ،
ناصر الفراعنة ،
الحضارم ،
اغتصاب ،
الجنس ،
فيلم جنس ،
مطبخ ،
اكلات خليجية ،
اكلات شامية ،
اكلات تركية ،
طبخات ،
حلويات ،
فساتين ،
nero ،
ديكور ،
ديكورات ،
ديكورات منزلية ،
اثاث ،
sitemap

YMM wins the thread, first crack out of the box! I'm with you YMM. I don't know who this new guy is, but I am glad he's replaced that other Joe Klein. Good for you Joe, whoever you are. Feels good, don't it? More like this please.

Hey Joe - Looks like you have joined the reality-based community. Welcome. Don't pay attention to those neo-cons at Commentary. They are just angry because they can't bamboozle you into supporting their cause.

Congratulations, Joe. You got me to put down my black flag for five seconds.

Then I thought hey, we live in a world where it's a really big explosive deal to take sane positions. So I'm not putting my black flag in storage or anything.

Thank God. Finally, someone in the MSM comes to their senses. Thank you Joe. You are with the people now.

Good for you Joe. It takes courage to express remorse in public forum. Whatever you got, I hope its catching.

Your voice rings clearer and clearer, Mr. Klein. Can you keep it up?

Hang in there, Joe. When it gets tough just think of the line from Annie Hall: "Oh really? I had heard that 'Commentary' and 'Dissent' had merged and formed 'Dysentery.'

I don't know why people are so surprised. Joe has generally been good on Middle East issues. What most people here find objectionable about him is that he thinks that leftists and progressives -- maybe especially the bloggers in the fold -- get in the way of solving problems in various ways. Sometimes perhaps we do, but we also do more good than harm.

As for "happily, these people represent a very small sliver of the Jewish population in this country," well, yes, but they are the single-issue voters among us and they play a hugely disproportionate role in funding political campaigns. As an occasional Democratic politico, I've tried to raise money from these people at times for different campaigns at various levels. Some of them are unrepentant reactionary jerks. But most of them aren't.

Rather, like the liberal Catholics who sheepishly and regretfully voted for Reagan in the 1980s because the issue of abortion outweighed everything else, some of these American Jews would really prefer to vote Democratic, but Israel is their single issue. (I've had it said to me, with rueful smiles, just that baldly.) So -- believing that any constraint on Israel is bad for Israel, and codependant to the core -- they don't for anyone who doesn't show absolute fealty. They will forgive anything if it comes in a package with unequivocal support for even the harshest (and most self-defeating) Israeli policies because -- how does one put this nicely? -- they worship Israel: the idea, the reality, the possibilities.

Israel-worship serves the function for them that religion serves for many other people: it provides solace, it provides community, it provides identity, it provides meaning. Even for the atheists among them -- and there are many -- this is the religion in their kishkes.

And now Joe Klein is an apostate. It will not be fun for him. While most of us Jews -- progressive, Obama supporting (with whatever degree of apprehension) Jews -- Middle East policy is one of scores, hundreds, of issues of concern to us. We reward, cajole, punish on any number of them. For these people, this "sliver," there is only one issue: support for Israel as they define it (or as it is defined for them.) It's an effective political strategy. It has worked for the NRA; it works for them. But it comes at the cost of electing Bush and Cheney and now maybe McCain.

I don't like the "dual loyalty" formulation because of its ugly historical precedents. And I don't think it's apt. These single-issue Jewish voters would never think of "betraying" the United States because the identity of U.S. and Israeli interests -- now, only as pronounced by Likud -- is axiomatic. They will not admit that there is -- ever -- a conflict between the desired of Israel and the best interest of the United States, and so the question of "dual loyalty" never arises. It is, in a very real sense, a violation of the precepts of their religion, as they see it. And, like the most dedicated religious devotees, your causing problems for their religion is the most important thing in the world.

We won't protect Joe to the extent he needs it; we have too many other fish to fry. But he has done the right thing here and that should offer its own reward. It had better.

Wow. Great stuff, Joe.

Of course, you will be attacked as an enemy of the American way of life and various other insults.

But usually when people stand up to bullies the bullies lose their power to intimidate.

The world thanks you for this post Joe. You are a brave and honorable man and your voice matters.

So Joe is now an anti-Semite? I suppose because Bibi refused to attack Saddam in the 90s that means he's an anti-Semite, too. What truck do these folks fall from and why do they keep landing on their heads?

Hi Joe,

Been a long time. But I still remember how you went with the flow when the Real Paper folded in the face of intimidation by The La Rouche crowd, and helped kill the great series of stories we did blowing his cover. That was just plain chicken.

Since then, I've read the occasional piece, always admired your smarts and style, but, well, didn't think much of your guts.

So now, you're up against the neocons. Even in partial eclipse they're a far more worthy set of adversaries than La Rouche ever was.

And if you live up to your strong words here, I'll take back all those things I've been thinking, and consider you a mensch for sure.

Mazel tov, dude.

Dear Mr. Klein,

I'm glad TIME didn't cave in to the war mongers.

Dude. I just went and registered so I can pass on kudos for this clearly written and very, very relevant piece. This tail wagging the dog thing is killing us, (some literally), and it's got to stop. The vehemence with which you will be criticized by the Jewish neoconservatives is in direct correlation to the amount of leverage they feel/know they lose when an unflinching light is shown on their nefarious and self serving plotting and deeds.

Rock. f'n. on. Joe.

Thank you for this post Joe -- and for your honesty and courage. Hope that others in your craft will follow your example.

Joe, you are truly a beacon of light. As a polarizing factor in political discussion, that is. You attract extreme lefties to post as commentors on this site the same way that your extreme right counterparts do on theirs. Moths to a flame. There is no honest discussion of opposing views attempting to find a medium on either site.

However, their site is unabashedly right-wing, while yours portrays itself as a mainstream American magazine. I can't believe that Time does employ such a polarizing writer, but this august current events magazine has become unashamedly left-wing. Polarized.

Even mentioning the religion of a dissenting opinion-holder, whether or not you share that religion, is unnecessary and draws only more polarized thinkers to your light. While I find the concept of self-hating based on your religious identity to be laughable, I do believe that even raising the subject of the religion of your opposition does draw anti-semites to your fold. It also has no place in honest political discussion.

I also fail to see where any overt threat was made to your job in the referenced article, nor do I see where they would have any influence on your boss. Anyone who would employ someone of your polarization must agree with your opinions. I'm sure that your position is quite safe. So that cry rings false to me.

I disagree that anyone is seriously considering a preemptive strike against Iran at this point.

Is it an option? Sure, just as much as you positioning your bed in the middle of Central Park, and just as seriously considered. You could do it, but that wouldn't be your first option, I'm sure; unless you've completely lost your mind. But, there have been times when I've read what you have to say and been convinced that you have in fact gone 'round the bend.

Your displays of adulation for Sen Obama and your personal and political attacks on Sen McCain bring no honor to Time Magazine, and for you to refer to your detractors as "extremists" when they are merely on the opposite end of the scale on which you are on the extreme left is also laughable.

Of course they are extremists, but then so are you. There is no balance in your expressions.

When you fire at the opposite pole the way that you do, you should not be in the least bit surprised when someone fires at you, and you certainly should not whine about it.

Your adoring cheerleaders are rooting for you, though, Joe. Heed their cries of congratulations and expressions of solidarity. They are the ones who buy the magazine and pay your wages. I will not, and I will tell my friends my thoughts on the subject as well. So, my tiny voice really means nothing; I pay none of your bills; but I have said what I think, and if you have read it, then I am pleased.

Have a nice day; move out and draw fire.

Two words for you: Joel Rosenberg. The neo-cons love this guy, and he's the biggest huxster I've ever seen. He's got Bush, Netanyahu, McCain, etc..'s ear. Very dangerous but easy to pick apart. He's a pathelogical liar and I can prove it. I'll have videos up on my youtube site soon, a few up now... youtube dot com slash o0xst

important stuff!!! Thanks for the article Mr. Klein, but I don't forgive you for endorsing the brutal war on Iraq, sorry.

Excellent post. Don't let them intimidate you (not that there seems to be much risk). I am very impressed that, angry as you clearly are, you were, in my view, totally fair to the American Likudniks. I also appreciate your frankness about your unfortunate mumblings on Russert's show.

Your argument is overwhelmingly convincing. All thinking Americans agree with you. We will soon find out if that is the majority.

Hey, good for you.

And thanks for pointing out McCain's ties with these nutters.

I am not going to make the same mistake twice.

Thank you, Joe.

The pressure you felt to say what you said on MTP is what Atrios mocks as "seriousness." I know you've born the brunt of some intemperate, withering criticism. A lesser man would respond by doubling down Joe Lieberman and Michael O'Hanlon-style. Thank you, thank you, thank you, for caring about your integrity and not simply your pride.

Please keep writing about this issue.

Thanks for taking a stand on this, so much mainstream journalism shys away from substantive reporting, controversial statements, or any real effort to call out corruption or misconduct. It's refreshing.

Joe - This is a brave statement. Better late than never, I guess. America and iraq have suffered countless dead and injured. But in the waning days of the Bush tragedy you finally have the courage to speak the truth. As enough of us stand up the neocons are losing their stranglehold on our country. You are warmly welcomed into the fold of those who see aggression and call it by its rightful name.

Joe- Thanks for this. Seems like I say that a lot lately.

It's easy to be stymied by the "if you're not with us you're against us" crowd, and some of the right wing has perfected the thuggery of that approach. So I applaud you for your willingness to speak the truth as you see it.

I would be surprised if the only threats to your job because of this are the ones referenced here. So if Time is getting heat, then kudos to Time for supporting you.

(I hope my fellow commenters will remember that it's no more honorable for those on the left to decide "if you're not with us you're against us." To our credit, we're not usually as willing to cut people off at the knees, though)

If you really want to send the extremist neocons over the edge have them take a look at Israeli soldiers beating and shooting at innocents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=But9m3O4umI

Rather, like the liberal Catholics who sheepishly and regretfully voted for Reagan in the 1980s because the issue of abortion outweighed everything else, some of these American Jews would really prefer to vote Democratic, but Israel is their single issue.

Seneca--

The Jewish-American vote is reliably Democratic, and is polling strongly for Obama. Joe's views are shared by most Jewish voters. AIPAC and the neocons do not represent the rank and file.

Posted by 53_3 | July 29, 2008 6:10 PM
"Right wing websites are bad, but I have NEVER experienced worse than the treatment one can recieve on one of those sites!"

Welcome to my world here at Swampland!

Don't worry, Joe. Most of my people would vote for Heinrich Himmler over The Archangel Michael if Himmler had a (D) next to his name. My people believe in the Democratic Party and G-d, in that order.

Thanks, Joe. Maybe things will change for the better. Last year the Harvard & UChicago profs got hammered by these same neocon as-hats. This year, polls show Jews prefer Obama over Holy Joe Lieberman.

Rustydog - I hope you're able to recognize that you get what you give here. You are occasionally civil, and you mostly get civility back under those circumstances.

The issue is not that we disagree with you, it's that you often make your points in a way that makes conversation impossible.

You are anonymous to us here, and there are no threats of repercussions. That is not the case for Joe.

Dear Joe,

When you get a moment, perhaps on the Sabbath, to sit back and contemplate the week, I want you to reflect on the fact that you were attacked and vilified for telling the truth.

That simple fact has tremendous meaning about where America is right now, about the players on either side, and about basic right and wrong.
I am glad to see that you are seeing the light.

For this, Mr. Klein, you win my humble admiration and respect.

Joe,

Thanks for the humility and for taking a stand. As Paul Henreid said to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca, "Welcome back to the fight."

It isn't easy for us to admit mistakes privately, but you did so publicly, and I look at you differently now, with respect, not disdain.

I hope Time has the intestinal fortitude (aka "the grapes") to circle the wagons nd support you.

Here's what the other Klein (Ezra) says:

"THE OTHER KLEIN THROWS SOME PUNCHES. So has anyone else noticed Joe Klein being awesome lately?"

Joe, being awesome is a good thing. So is being brave by shining the light on some truly awful people. And, speaking of awful, shameless, creepy, evil people, did you see that Richard Perle is investing in Kurdish oil now:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/top_neocon_richard_perle_seek.php

Joe, please keep it up. Truth is what we need in this country, not allegiance.

Joe, You said your voice doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things,I beg to differ! Finally a mainstream media voice that is not fearful to stand up to these neo-con frauds! Keep writing Joe!

Well said, sir. Well said indeed. Thank you for your candor.

Joe, nice piece. I agree with you. I've also been impressed with the comments here. They're much better that what you usually see.

One question, however: Why identify those who are calling for your silencing and firing as Jewish, especially if, as you say, they are just a small sliver of the Jewish community? After all, there are many more non-neo-conservative Jews than neo-conservative Jews. There were and are substantial numbers of Jewish opponents to the Iraq war. There were and are Jewish liberals, Jewish conservatives, Jewish liberal mags and websites all along with Commentary (e.g. Dissent Magazine). There was an array of rationales in political circles in 2002 and 2003 that both justified and opposed invading Iraq, and those rationales, on both sides, were expounded by Jews and non-Jews alike.

Surely you can see how you come close to a traditional anti-Semitic canard when you say that Jews "successfully helped provide the intellectual rationale for George Bush to do it in 2003". Are you saying something like, "Clever Jews tricked the otherwise forthright but unwitting Bush into carrying out their desires". Yes, Perle and Wolfowitz my have had influence, but Rumsfeld and Cheney had more.

"They are also bullies and I'm not going to be intimidated by them."

Exactly right. They could have had a legitimate debate about why they thought it was in the U.S. natio