July 16, 2008 12:54
Obama and Race: Another View
Regular Swampland readers are familiar with the insights of Jackson Dykman, our datameister here at TIME. In a series of emails to me today, he took a look at my earlier post and had some problems with it--not with the poll data itself, but with the way it was framed in the New York Times story. Here's part of what Jackson had to say:
I too was really struck by the NYT’s characterization of its own poll. I read the full poll first and then the story when they posted it last night. I’ve rarely seen a story so wildly off from the actual data on which it is based.
Aside from point C in the Obama response (which is true and basically negates the story), the premise of the story is, well, utter nonsense.Are we really supposed to think that because a black man has become the Democratic nominee in recent weeks that he somehow should have cured (or markedly improved) race relations in this country? This is just a silly premise, yet the story thrust of the story seems to be shock and surprise that the mere fact of Obama’s candidacy hasn’t reversed—or obliterated—the slight increase in racial tensions in this country over the past 8 years.
In a second e-mail, Jackson adds:
I can’t decide whether it’s the headline or the story that really creates the schism. The hed in the paper is: “Poll finds Obama candidacy isn’t closing country’s divisions on race.”
Are you kidding me? The guy just wrapped up the nomination. Racial divisions in the U.S. have a wee bit of a 400-year head start on him. If Obama goes on to win the election, I really hope the Times does this poll again in four years. Whatever the result, THAT would be a story.I’m going to show my age here, but this reminds me a lot of some days I spent reporting in Chicago way back during the Harold Washington/Bernard Epton race for mayor. I did a bunch of man-on-the-street stuff in some white West Side neighborhoods. The most prevalent rumor at the time was that if Washington were elected, he would cut off electricity to white neighborhoods. People believed this.
Thinking of that and reading this poll, I gotta think we have made progress.
Two other points. In the poll data, 79% of white voters think an Obama administration would treat both whites and blacks the same. And 82% of white voters think a McCain administration would treat both races the same. Okay, fine. The real story in this question is this—90% of black voters think Obama would treat whites and blacks the same, but only 50% of black voters think McCain would treat both races the same.
Yet Obama is the one who’s failing to close “the country’s divisions on race”?
Finally, I looked it up again because I couldn’t believe it, but Point E in the Obama response is correct. Why on earth would the story say “there’s even racial dissension over Mr. Obama’s wife, Michelle: She was viewed favorably by 58% of black voters, compared with 24% of white voters.”
The numbers for Cindy McCain: 20% favorable among white voters, 9% favorable among black voters (!!!)
I've long made the argument that journalists care wildly more about candidates’ spouses than readers do, but someone needs to tell me why the racial dissension is “over Michelle Obama.”
Reader Comments (54)
Thanks for this post, Karen. Even though I'm no statistician, I was struck by the variation between what the story said and what the statistical examples in the earlier post.
Posted by ivb | July 16, 2008 1:17 PM
...and the statistical examples in the earlier post.
Proof-reading is my friend.
Posted by ivb | July 16, 2008 1:18 PM
I'll discuss by point:
KT: "The real story in this question is this—90% of black voters think Obama would treat whites and blacks the same, but only 50% of black voters think McCain would treat both races the same."
The poll really is about expectations. Aside from that, KT, this isn't hard to figure out - and you should be able to easily make the connection between this result and "Southern Strategy" as practiced by many Republicans.
What is much more interesting then the difference between the two is the fact that the difference is LESS pronounced than the traditional split between Black voters between the parties.
It might be that even Black voters percieve that McCain, at least in practice, is being separated from Hannity, Hagee, Limbaugh, et al in their minds, too. That is a BIG developement and should at least speak to what I've said more than once on these blogs:
There is an untapped conservative element within that demographic that can be harvested only after dumping the racial baggage that has so long tinged the Republican party.
KT: Finally, I looked it up again because I couldn’t believe it, but Point E in the Obama response is correct. Why on earth would the story say “there’s even racial dissension over Mr. Obama’s wife, Michelle: She was viewed favorably by 58% of black voters, compared with 24% of white voters.”
This points directly back to the inability to get some sectors of our population to understand that patriotism (the bane of Michelle's image) is displayed differently by many Black Americans. The Republicans attempt to portray her as "unpatriotic" which is NOT true, and the Democrats point to the reasons she might "now" be pround of our country. Until the spin stops, there won't be a noticeable closing of that gap.
KT: "I've long made the argument that journalists care wildly more about candidates’ spouses than readers do, but someone needs to tell me why the racial dissension is “over Michelle Obama.”
It has as much to do with not presenting with impartiality and on a consistant basis the difference in perspective between Black and White voters - and why such a difference exists.
In a nutshell, much of the difference, and the unwillingness to recognize it, is a product of the urban myths generated over the past 30 years by Republicans and the pundits who cover them in the name of "Southern Strategy".
Posted by 53_3 | July 16, 2008 1:22 PM
The story was written by Adam Nagourney. Need I say more?
KT, as a journalist, does it bother you that so many in your once esteemed profession are such complete fools? I assume you went to J-school. Did they have a course on willful blindness and mischaracterization of the facts? If they did, I suppose Ad Nags got an "A" in that one.
Posted by mjshep | July 16, 2008 1:29 PM
Poor Cindy McCain (okay, not that --$$$-- kind of poor).
Posted by BrooklynGurl | July 16, 2008 1:36 PM
A poll comes out that shows Obama 6 points ahead..but the headline and the emphasis of the story is what Obama is doing wrong.
You see this all the time in the pro-McCain corporate media...trying to turn lemons into lemonade for the GOP.
Don't let the designation of the New York Times as Liberal by the right fool you just because Frank Rich writes on the op-ed page.
The New York Times carried Bush's water on Iraq and is currently helping set the CW that the Surge has vindicated the Bush/McCain strategy.
So its no surprise to me that they are slanting their poll as best they can against Obama.
Posted by RKA
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July 16, 2008 1:44 PM
Thanks for providing this analysis.
Posted by Lynn Anne | July 16, 2008 1:46 PM
Maybe not electricity, but a black community in Columbus, Ohio, was denied water for 46 years, only getting public water access in 2003.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/11/civil.rights.water.ap/index.html?iref=24hours
Posted by canuck | July 16, 2008 1:54 PM
I spent reporting in Chicago way back during the Harold Washington/Bernard Epton race for mayor. I did a bunch of man-on-the-street stuff in some white West Side neighborhoods. The most prevalent rumor at the time was that if Washington were elected, he would cut off electricity to white neighborhoods. People believed this.
I've got to run to meetings, but this is basically true, although a little more complex than reported here.
Posted by stuart_zechman | July 16, 2008 1:56 PM
Thanks Karen. Really interesting. I think the media is kind of bored and race is always sexy to write about because you can find fools on both ends of the spectrum to say incendiary things. I'm sure that tommorrow he'll have a follow up story along those lines ...
Posted by TeresaKopec | July 16, 2008 1:56 PM
Terrific analysis, thanks for posting it.
This is why it's a waste of time to read the newspaper. You never know when they're just making something up. Read the critique of the article on blogs, and you'll actually be well-informed.
Posted by Elvis Elvisberg
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July 16, 2008 2:02 PM
There is one course missing in Journalism schools: headline writing. Since a large part of the article text is the same in all papers, thanks to AP and other news services, the major difference from one paper to another is the headline. The headline is usually written by a different person than the author of the article. Often the headline writer will glance at the text and pick out what he/she feels is the cogent point. Given some of the "styles" of contemporary journalism the cogent point may be in the fifth or 12th paragraph.
Posted by Jack Linthicum | July 16, 2008 2:08 PM
Thanks for posting this, KT.
I read the polling data online this morning, and couldn't believe how much it seemed Adam Nagourney had distorted it to fit his preconceived narrative. Bizarre, even for him.
Posted by Otto Man | July 16, 2008 2:08 PM
KT here--
Okay, Elvis, that is the SECOND time today that you have said it's a waste of time to read newspapers. You are getting seriously close to getting banned, my friend. (Just kidding, sort of--but that one cuts close to the bone for those of us who are watching what's going on at the Tribune Company with great trepidation.)
Posted by Karen Tumulty | July 16, 2008 2:09 PM
Lets put this in perspective.
A pollster calls someone up and right off the bat determines their race. They then ask a series of questions. They are then utterly shocked to discover that the responses to the questions vary between respondents and correlate with their race. Then they publish this and call it news!
Posted by Paul Dirks
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July 16, 2008 2:13 PM
53_3 writes:
"It has as much to do with not presenting with impartiality and on a consistant basis the difference in perspective between Black and White voters - and why such a difference exists.
In a nutshell, much of the difference, and the unwillingness to recognize it, is a product of the urban myths generated over the past 30 years by Republicans and the pundits who cover them in the name of "Southern Strategy".
No, there are vast differences in the way whites and blacks experience America. It's not "urban myths" that got a black man shot to death in NYC for the crime of reaching for his wallet. There is a general distrust and hostility between most black men and their government. that mistrust is easily explained when you consider the history. Blacks and whites have different views of what patriotism means because they have had different experiences over generations being American.
Posted by ny nick | July 16, 2008 2:18 PM
Yeesh, I wasn't thinking about that, KT. I hope things work out well for the Swamphousehold.
(And more generally, I hope things work out for newspapers. I think that you have to be careful reading them not because of some innate newspaperiness, but because the culture of journalism these days is just not always conducive to impartial reporting on important issues. I didn't develop that opinion until the Libby case, when you had to read emptywheel (and maybe Tom MacGuire) to determine the context and import of that day's stories in the Times and the Post.)
Posted by Elvis Elvisberg
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July 16, 2008 2:33 PM
nick:
This is very true. But these differences between the two communities are portrayed as harmful and somehow threatening to White Americans, and widely reported as such in the newspapers and magazines.
The fact that Diallo was killed for reaching for his wallet in a darkened hall, away from witnesses is a product of the urban myths I spoke of. So are some versions of the Diallo murder's portrayal.
Had these urban myths I referred to not been in the core belief system of the officers who shot him, Diallo would still be alive.
The accurate portrayal of the Diallo incident has been championed by very few in the media, as well as politicians. Most White Americans do not see the Diallo incident the same way because of this - and this is the phenomona I'm pointing at, and one which KT and many others really don't want to acknowledge because they percieve that doing so would be too 'partisan'.
It isn't partisan at all to actually come out and say that the Republicans have been churning out this nonsense for years and it has done ENORMOUS damage and has served to perpetuate the racial divide far beyond what otherwise would have been its lifespan otherwise.
Posted by 53_3 | July 16, 2008 2:34 PM
stuart_zechman's point about White fear apparently continues until today. In the snippets of commentary on TV from some White voters in Appalachia we got the following:
_Blacks will do to Whites what Whites did to Blacks if Obama is elected
_Obama wll only lookout for the Blacks
I posted the following on Karen's other post about the NYT, but I think it bears repeating. Republicans trot out "The party of Lincoln" meme as part of the rationale for Blacks supporting the GOP. Here is some true but suppressed GOP history regarding African-Americans.
LILY-WHITE MOVEMENT. The "lily-white" movement began within the Republican party after the Civil War. From the first days of Reconstruction, a fight developed not only in Texas but across the South between white and black factions for control of the newly formed party. As white GOP leaders sought "respectability" among Southern voters and a conviction grew that continued "black and tan" involvement thwarted expansion of the party, the lily-white Republicans began an organized effort to drive blacks from positions of party leadership. Though Texas blacks appealed to Northern party managers to halt the movement, lily-whiteism flourished because Republican presidents after 1865 wanted approval from the Southern white masses. The term lily-white apparently originated at the 1888 Republican state convention in Fort Worth, when a group of whites attempted to expel a number of black and tan delegates. Norris Wright Cuney, the black Texas leader who controlled the state party from 1883 until his death in 1896, promptly labeled the insurgents "lily-whites," and the term was soon applied to similar groups throughout the South.
Actually, an organized lily-white movement had begun in Texas during the 1870s, when the party was dominated by former governor Edmund J. Davis. But once Cuney gained the national committeemanship in 1884 upon the death of Davis, the lily-whites started a concerted drive for mastery. Though Cuney was reappointed to the national committee at the 1892 Republican national convention, the black-white struggle in Texas resulted in a fractured party and the first GOP state convention without a black and tan delegation in attendance. The 1892 election proved a turning point for both GOP factions as Cuney aligned the black and tans behind George Clark, a conservative Democrat, in his fight with James S. Hogg, and the lily-whites nominated Andrew Jackson Houston for the governorship. Houston, son of Sam Houston and a future United States senator, received only 1,322 votes in the November election, while Cuney suffered a dual setback: not only did Clark go down in defeat, but the Democrat Grover Cleveland won the presidency, so that Cuney lost all federal patronage.
Southern GOP leaders, black and white, relied upon the dispensation of federal jobs to maintain their state organizations; and when Cuney lost out under Cleveland, the door was opened for a lily-white takeover. Though Cuney was replaced as national committeeman as well as state chairman during the 1896 campaign, other black and tan leaders emerged to lead the state party. Edward H. R. Green (son of multimillionaire Hetty H. R. Green), who arrived in Texas to oversee his mother's railroad empire, captured the party after Cuney's downfall by forming a political alliance with William M. (Gooseneck Bill) McDonald, a black banker from Fort Worth. The Green-McDonald partnership, however, was unable to stem the lily-white insurgents, and after Green's withdrawal as state chairman in 1902, Cecil A. Lyon, a white businessman from Sherman, took control. Lyon generally spearheaded the party and the movement in Texas until his death in 1915.
By 1904 Lyon was Theodore Roosevelt's agent in the state as well as national committeeman and state chairman; though black and tan delegations appeared at the 1904 and 1908 national conventions, they were pushed aside by Lyon's forces. To avoid criticism, one or two blacks were usually seated with lily-white delegations to the national gatherings. The lily-whites gained new momentum with the adoption of the poll tax and the passage of the Terrell Election Law (see ELECTION LAWS). The lily-white Republicans appealed to racism to establish their party as a viable alternative for southern Democrats. As a result, blacks increasingly lost influence and power in the Republican party. The Southern Democratic leadership greatly discouraged black membership, and many blacks felt that they had no political party in which to participate. When the Republican factions split during 1906 and both made gubernatorial nominations to oppose Democrat Thomas Mitchell Campbell, the lily-white candidate, A. C. Gray, outpolled his black and tan challenger, Alexander W. Acheson, by a four-to-one margin. Lyon supported Roosevelt in 1912 during his famous fight with William Howard Taft, and he later organized the Progressive or Bull Moose party in Texas, which resulted in the loss of his party posts to Henry Frederick MacGregor, a Houston businessman. Roosevelt's Bull Moose campaign finished shattering Republican harmony in the state, with the lily-whites generally supporting the new movement's calls for a white opposition party to the Democrats and the black and tans allying themselves with Taft. After amalgamation of the GOP for the 1916 presidential campaign, Rentfro B. Creager, a Brownsville lawyer and 1916 gubernatorial candidate, soon became party leader.
Though McDonald attempted a comeback in 1920 and proclaimed that color should predominate because "95 percent of all Texas Republicans were Negroes," the lily-whites under Creager retained firm control after the upheavals of 1912-16. The lily-whites reigned supreme under Republican presidents Warren G. Harding, Calvin Coolidge, and Herbert Clark Hoover, despite the threats of blacks throughout the 1920s to bolt the Republican fold for the Democratic party, and despite efforts by Republican congressman Harry McLeary Wurzbachqv to court the black and tans in his fight for ascendancy with Creager. When black and tan factions appeared at the 1920, 1924, and 1928 Republican national conventions, they were shunted aside by Creager and his followers. Lily-white domination of the state GOP became academic during the 1930s, as Texas blacks joined the black exodus into Democrat Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal coalition.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: Alwyn Barr, Reconstruction to Reform: Texas Politics, 1876-1906 (Austin: University of Texas Press, 1971). Paul D. Casdorph, A History of the Republican Party in Texas, 1865-1965 (Austin: Pemberton Press, 1965). Paul D. Casdorph, Republicans, Negroes, and Progressives in the South, 1912-1916 (University, Alabama: University of Alabama Press, 1981). Bruce Alden Glasrud, Black Texans, 1900-1930: A History (Ph.D. dissertation, Texas Tech College, 1969). Donald J. Lisio, Hoover, Blacks, and Lily Whites (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1985).
Blacks were ushered out of the GOP.
A major issue that raises ire from Conservatives regarding race is Affirmative Action. If we look back at the GI Bill, which was the subject of a book entitled "When Affirmative Action was White", we do see that it aided the rise of the middle class. African-American soldiers and sailors were excluded from large scale participation in the GI bill because of racism.
In order to build a competiive work force for the future, government programs that encourage higher education like the current GI Bill (Webb) are important. Similar programs aimed at the civilian population will be needed. The truly tricky part is that since there are more impoverished Whites than Blacks in the country, what directives can be made in an attempt to target the African-American community with a higher percentage of people in neeed?
Colorblind solutions will be fraught with persistence of a lower percentage of Blacks/Latinos with access to higher education.
Finally, regarding Affirmaive Acton. Doesn't the fact that a man who was an alcoholic into his forties and has such poor communication skills is President of the United states of America speak volumes about who truly benefitted from Affirmative Action?
Posted by rmrd0000 | July 16, 2008 2:49 PM
KT said "close to the bone for those of us who are watching what's going on at the Tribune Company with great trepidation.)"
KT,
Hang in there. Somethings are out of your control and so are the bone heads making those decisions. But being a good interesting writer and providing sound analysis are not. You are both and from what I have heard about Mr. KT he is as well.
Posted by GySgt213 | July 16, 2008 2:50 PM
mrd0000:
This is interesting and gives more background. I always thought it was the Dems who worked to roll back Black constitutional rights in the late 1800's / early 1900's.
Obviously, it seems that they couldn't have done it without help from the other side of the aisle so this makes much sense!
I really think the pundits, like KT (and thanks to Joe Klein for acknowledging this during the winter!) and others should just acknowlege the fact that the Republicans have done so much damage with regards to the division of perception between White and Black Americans.
It is a REAL problem, and not in the least bit 'partisan' to say so. Nor is it extreme in any way!
Posted by 53_3 | July 16, 2008 3:02 PM
53_3,
Sir, there is little doubt in my mind that Repubicans have played to the lowest common demonminator in the south for at least a generation. That being said, I think their contribution to racial divisiveness is trivial compared to the lasting and long term effects that three hundred years of official racism has caused. We all are a product of our surroundings. There is little doubt that growing up in communities where the elderly experienced things like whites only diners and restrooms has an effect on how you view whites and America in general. Being forced to walk across the street if a white woman was walking in the other direction for fear that if you looked at her a little too long, you could be killed is unfathomable to us today, but there are people who will tell you this was a daily part of their lives growing up. This was and is the history of race in the United States. It's detrimental effects will be with us for a long time to come. We do ourselves no favors by trying to assign partisan blame for continued racial animus. America collectively bears the burden and the shame of our less honorable history. We, together, Democrats, Republicans and Independents share this scar. Trying to blame your political opponents overlooks the Democrats' less than squeaky clean history of race relations.
Posted by ny nick | July 16, 2008 3:06 PM
Thanks, KT.
Ultimately, for the national dailies, getting from 300 words to 1200 words when writing about a poll is almost always an exercise in tealeaf-reading and tendentious parsing. That might be why Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight is such a hit: it treats statistics as statistics, rather than an invitation to witter about the Rorschach blob of each discrete set of results.
Posted by pseudonymous in NC | July 16, 2008 3:20 PM
Thanks Karen. I wish more of your Swampland colleagues had as much of an interest in getting things right.
Posted by lowellfield | July 16, 2008 3:20 PM
nick,
The Dems do indeed have a less than squeaky clean racial record. See my reply to mrd0000 above as well as his commentary.
However, like the Republican party, the Democratic party is no more what it used to be, and to refuse to acknowledge that there has been an effective switch in places is disinengenous in the least.
Namely the current Democratic party is in no manner as big a contributor to the racial divide as is the current Republican party - this is documented ably and widely by sources too numerous to mention other than a few: The Southern Poverty Law Center and Sourcewatch.
Your contention that the previous 300 years of history being at the root of this problem I wouldn't even want to dispute. It is so obvious that I went without saying so.
Believe me, I have stories about my wifes' parents' adventures in a small community NE of Baton Rouge that could bring real flesh and blood to your commentary and I in no way disagree.
However, for the past 30 years, it is the Republicans, and NOT Democrats, who have been purveying widely the "urban myths" that have preserved the racial divide beyond its' natural lifetime.
No if's, and's or but's about that whatsoever!
Posted by 53_3 | July 16, 2008 3:20 PM
Does an organization like the NYTimes have any sort of QC for these types of articles? The errors and statistical misrepresentations that the writers of the article pass off on their readers are substantial, and as this thread has shown, are easily identified and described by someone with a bit of background and access to the full data set.
Posted by bdbd | July 16, 2008 3:21 PM
KT.
Thanks for the update on your earlier post. Like Mr. Dykman, I have issues with the way the story is framed.
So let's ask the next question, why were these poll numbers framed in such a way? Obviously, someone made a decision to frame the story in that manner.
What could be the motivation?
1. Is it laziness? (e.g. It's easier to frame poll numbers to fit Conventional Wisdom.)
2. Is it outright deception?
3. Is it stupidity?
I don't have an answer. But considering the track record of Mr. Nagourney, I suspect it's a little bit of all 3.
Posted by McCain Fluffer | July 16, 2008 3:22 PM
Doesn't the poll show that Cindy McCain would be a lot more popular if she were black? I think this obviously should have been the focus of the story: Is Cindy McCain's whiteness pulling down the campaign? It reminds me of that moment in McCain's campaign movie when the Dude says, looking at the little McCain urban achievers, so racially he's pretty cool?
Posted by rgathman | July 16, 2008 3:30 PM
For me, Elvis, it was Peter Daou writing about media narratives and the triangle that led me to distrust news reporting. Ad Nags, and the NYT story illustrates the effect very well--and without this medium, there is no corrective available. Nagourney started out with a chapter h was planning to add to the narrative, and sought out data to support it.
Along with the Libby trial was the USAttorneys scandal, although the press was less blameworthy in missing it. It took Josh Marshall looking at the whole country to see the pattern, which is not on anybody's beat.
It is also true that you'd have a hard time keeping the FISA story straight if you simply read the newspapers or, much worse, watched the teevee. I can't watch the teevee anymore.
Posted by jayackroyd
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July 16, 2008 3:36 PM
Just like the New Yorker cover that lacked context that turned a caricature into true satire, the Nagourney story headline is what will resonate. This is the headline on the NYT website all day: "Poll Finds Obama Isn’t Closing Divide on Race."
That's all many people will read - he can't close the deal.
As someone noted above, there is not nearly enough attention paid in journalism to the importance of headlines. Or worse, the people writing headlines are in the tank for the RW.
Posted by wvng | July 16, 2008 3:44 PM
KT: your apprehension is understandable. But the NYT has a split personality: they have people who do great reporting and another set who seem to get their political reporting in a twist. AD Nags is not the only one to read too much from too little. The problem, I think, is that when one has a narrative in mind it is easy to use "facts and poll data" to drive that narrative. The NYT has done some very poor reporting in recent times. As for their opinion pieces: MoDo, nuff said.
Posted by bitterpill8 | July 16, 2008 3:48 PM
53_3,
"However, like the Republican party, the Democratic party is no more what it used to be, and to refuse to acknowledge that there has been an effective switch in places is disinengenous in the least."
I don't dispute that. I said as much. It's my contention the Republicans exploit the racial divide, their not the cause of it. That's all.
Posted by ny nick | July 16, 2008 3:57 PM
Karen - thank you so much for this. You have no idea, I expect, what a breath of fresh air you are to many of us here.
The distorted lede is so like a McCain take on things - not for content alone, but for the taking out of context and blowing out of proportion a small thing about Obama that can be exploited. Didn't realize, I'm embarrassed to say, how in the tank for him Nagourney is, but forewarned is forearmed. McCain has succeeded in making the whole narrative of this campaign about Obama.
So what can/will you and Jackson Dykman do about this? At some point journalists need to let their fellows know what isn't acceptible - and I realize you've done that publically already, by posting this. Somebody needs to write the ombudsman.
I add my good wishes re the Trib, and second the confidence that Mr KT writes well enough that another job is right around the corner if the current one folds. (you've linked, as you'll remember)
Posted by KathyR | July 16, 2008 4:03 PM
nick,
I guess we agree on all of it, then. Maybe I could have made that clearer, because I don't think they caused it either.
Glad we didn't tag each other!
Posted by 53_3 | July 16, 2008 4:22 PM
Interesting, Jay. I haven't really read Peter Daou that much. I suppose Bob Somerby could have convinced me of the point you make about narratives, but his style is hard for me to read.
I'm in agreement 100% on FISA and the US Attorneys scandal. Heck, Jay Carney agrees with you on that. Fortunately, by the time of those two events, I knew enough to be paying more attention to Greenwald and TPM than to anything printed or broadcast anywhere else. So I had known about, say, Cheney's fourth branch theory long before it appeared in WaPo and thereby transubstantiated into a subject permissible to discuss in the MSM.
I agree that watching TV makes you less informed. I never watch CNN, and don't care too much for MSNBC, either.
(Also, in retrospect, the liberal blogosphere was right about WMDs in Iraq, the Plame scandal, etc.-- but at that time, I suffered from impaired judgment brought on by New Republic Syndrome. So I supported the invasion and dismissed 2004-era concerns over Plame as unserious. Whoops!)
Posted by Elvis Elvisberg
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July 16, 2008 4:24 PM
One of the most vapid arguments that the Obamabots use (and there are SO many) for why we should vote for (and glorify his name, can you give me a hallelujah!) The Chosen One is that by electing him we will heal all the racial divides and put The Blimp and The Pimp out of business.
The magical thinking would be funny if it wasn't coming from people with the ability (but not the common sense) to vote.
Posted by Your Hubris | July 16, 2008 4:34 PM
One of the most vapid arguments that the Obamabots use (and there are SO many) for why we should vote for (and glorify his name, can you give me a hallelujah!) The Chosen One is that by electing him we will heal all the racial divides and put The Blimp and The Pimp out of business.
Really? That's interesting to me. Please provide names of Obama supporters who have suggested that electing him will end racism and, if possible, links to the writings in which they've made that suggestion.
So far, the only person I know of who has seriously argued this point is John McWhorter, who is a right-winger who hopes that electing Obama will end racism because he's tired of hearing about it. Ana posted something about him a few days ago.
Posted by FastEddie | July 16, 2008 4:41 PM
Your Hubris you don't realize how stupid your posts make you appear.
You and Rustydog are the only ones doing magical thinking. What's McCain's position on Afghanistan today? It's What Obama said we should be doing. Cheating off another person's paper. Hmm, perhaps that explains McBush's class ranking.
If it weren't for the two of you, I would really be lamenting the fact that prime time comedy has gone into the dumper. You guys come along and provide the much neede humor I need. Rustydog even thinks he's a doctor. The comedy never ends.
Posted by rmrd0000 | July 16, 2008 4:49 PM
Hubie, as FastEddie points out, that's something that right-wingers like to say.
We get it-- you don't like Jesse Jackson, and you don't like Barack Obama. That's nice. You should stop fantasizing that more than a half-dozen or so people who support Obama claim to do so in order to take a shot at Jackson, though.
Posted by Elvis Elvisberg
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July 16, 2008 4:53 PM
Fast Eddie - although I know that as a liberal you expect everything to be done for you or given to you I suggest you do your own research into the matter and maybe you may learn something. Though I won't hold my breath.
There's more magical thinking in this blog and on this thread than there is at Disneyworld and Disneyland combined! How do you do it Elvis? Are you like the Lance Burton of thinking on this blog?
Posted by Your Hubris | July 16, 2008 5:20 PM
Fast Eddie - although I know that as a liberal you expect everything to be done for you or given to you I suggest you do your own research into the matter and maybe you may learn something. Though I won't hold my breath.
So I'll put you down for an "I can't support my own argument" there; fair enough?
Posted by FastEddie | July 16, 2008 5:24 PM
..........as a liberal you expect everything to be done for you or given to you
More comedy from Your Hubris
_The Liberty Univ law grads getting preference over Harvard, Yale grads at DOJ leading to office meltdowns. White Conservative Affirmative action at work
_Alfonso Jackson giving perferential treatment for contracts to buddies at HUD. White Affirmative Action dealt out by an African-American Republican
_Michael "Brownie" Brown. Fired Arabian Horse Association head. White Affirmative Action hire put in charge of FEMA. No qulaifications neede.
There are many more examples but I'm too busy laughing at Hubris to post any more.
Posted by rmrd0000 | July 16, 2008 5:47 PM
For all your talk, Your Hubris, you havn't walked the walk.
When we talk, we back it up with hard, searchable, readable information.
When you talk, it's just gas Hubris. If you really want to be as articulate as I or any of the others are, then lets see you stack some references on YOUR side of the table, eh?
Fish or cut bait, Hubris...
Posted by 53_3 | July 16, 2008 6:26 PM
Your Hubris:
Define "liberal".
Let's start with the easy stuff...
Posted by 53_3 | July 16, 2008 6:53 PM
53_3 - actually you "back" most of your "points" with BS from liberal websites sanctioned by your masters at the Daily Kos.
Fail.
Thanks for playing.
Posted by Your Hubris | July 16, 2008 7:36 PM
53_3
It's not worth your time. The point is he has no point. He can't formulate a rational thought. so he will just talk to himself and think that he is winning.
He will not respond to the GOP's racist history
He will not deal with Goldwater, Atwater, or the Southern Strategy.
Textbooks documenting the history of the GOP are a liberal website in Hubris' mind.
If you try to communicate with Your Hubris, you are not conversing with an intelligent lifeform.
Posted by rmrd0000 | July 16, 2008 8:05 PM
KT, you responded to Elvis's assertion that it's a waste of time to read the newspapers -- but not to the reason he said so:
"You never know when they're just making something up."
Any thoughts on that part of it? I'd be very interested to hear what a working journalist at a major journal thinks about that. We've seen a lot of "making stuff up" over the last ten years or so (see basically any random Daily Howler issue) ; it seems like a reasonable point to make.
With kind regards,
Dog, etc.
... searching for home ...
Posted by Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog | July 16, 2008 9:16 PM
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Posted by goldstonesoft | July 25, 2008 5:30 AM
I've been watching the media frame Republicans and Democrats since before reading about President Clinton's first inauguration right here in Time Magazine, and underlineing with a pen the derogetory phrases meticulously placed in every single sentence that mentioned the name Clinton. This kind of tipped-toward-the-Republican bias (propaganda manipulation) by a so called "liberal" media has been going on for a long time now. Nothing new to see here.
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August 3, 2008 1:30 AM
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