Am I Blue

From MSNBC May 06th 2008 During the Democratic Presidential Primary, the following exchange between Chris Mathews and Tim Russert occurred

Matthews: …”You think the Democrat warhorses know that as long as there’s a fire going on in one of those rings, the Barack Obama ring, we’re not going to focus much on John McCain’s weaknesses?”

Russert: “Yes, they believed initially that ignoring the McCain campaign was beneficial and helpful to the Democrats, but as this has gone on, they see in their minds, and we get flooded with e-mails, Senator McCain making a mistake on Shi’a vs. Sunni, making a mistake about the first Persian Gulf War and the second, vis-à-vis oil, his own relationship with Pastor Hagee and why isn’t that talked about and reported on the way Reverend Wright’s relationship with Senator Obama is talked about. But, all that in time. It is only May. This has been going on for some time, but it’s going to be a long, long campaign and when Senator McCain is back in the media’s light, he’ll receive the same kind of scrutiny.”

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/05/07/matthews-russert-admit-theyve-given-john-mccain-a-free-pass/

It's July. The democratic Primaries are over. The coverage has been 1) "This is bad for Obama" 2) "McCain did a bad thing, but all candidates do bad things" 3) McCain gets a free ride.

Is anyone in MSM going to take on Russert's promise of detailed coverage of John McCain?

"I don’t think that’s how pro-choice folks have interpreted it."

Is it just me or is there a weird sense of detachment in his characterization of "pro-choice folks?"

I think that you misunderstood what Obama is saying. He is saying that the Right protests late term abortion on the terms that women get one because they are just feeling "blue," by specifically formalizing the restrictions on late term abortion Obama is trying to do an end run around those morons.

Face it, the number of women who get a third term abortion for "feeling blue" is zilch. It is a right wing canard. They get them because of severe medical problems with the fetus. Obama is not going to effectively restrict anyone from getting one who needs it and it effectively puts an end to a stupid right wing talking point.

This is a one of the issues where we can legitimately say Obama is waffling (like FISA and UNLIKE Iraq.)

Implicit in all this is the notion that having a child is punishment. Say what you will, but that doesn't sound like a prescription for healthy happy families.

There is a good break down on this topic at: http://www.mahablog.com/2008/07/04/explaining-obama-defining-abortion-terms/

This post was also done well by Digby, Amanda Marcotte, bitchphd, and LGM.

I love how mental distress is supposed to be negligible as grounds for having an abortion, but the worst thing in the world to suffer through post-abortion. As in "post-abortion syndrome," a made up problem that nevertheless has a wikipedia entry.

I am pro choice by I think there is a problem with the extremist views on both the Right and the Left. The extremists on the Right do not support abortion of any type regardless of the danger facing the pregnant woman. The extremists on the Left think that women should be allowed to have abortions no matter how flimsy her justification may be… In the past, Obama has stated that the choice to abort a fetus is not an easy decision for women. But one can argue that individuals need to take extra precautions in avoiding unwanted pregnancies…at least both extremes can agree that the government needs to invest more funds in educating women on how to reduce incidents that lead to abortions.

"It can be defined through physical health. It can be defined by serious clinical mental health diseases. It is not just a matter of feeling blue."

I agree with Teresa. I think Obama is warning against dismissing clinical mental health conditions as merely "feeling blue."

Ana, why no coverage of this?http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL

If Obama said the word gooks it would be all over the press.

the whole point of being pro-choice is not that you think all abortions are a great idea, it's that you don't think government should restrict access to them based on the reasons why a woman wants one.
No. Ding. Thank you for playing.

Like any right, privilege, freedom, whatever, there are and should be bounds. You have to get a license to fish. You have to get a license to buy a gun. But you're saying here that you don't think there should be any checks at all on how/when/why you're talking about destroying something that is or will be (depending on your faith, politics, and point of view) a human being?

I like your posts Ana. But this is knee-jerk silly & dumb.

When making exceptions on a particular law or policy, it is a necessity to specify what exact exceptions you mean. By "mental illness" one needs to specify a serious mental illness as reflected by a clinical diagnosis. And yeah, Obama's probably emphasizing exceptions to those more moderate on the abortion issue.

But, just because one chooses to be specific on their policy doesn't mean one has to believe that certain scenarios outside of that policy are commonplace (ex: high number of late-term abortions because women feel "blue"). Rather, I think that is an assumption, Ana, and the statement as it stands doesn't prove or disprove it.

I will surprise again many here at Swampland, but the decision for having an abortion should be between a woman and her Physician. Period, end of story. Not the government, not the local church or other activists on either the left or right.

However, we need more counseling for our younger men and women under 25 for abstinence and other birth control options. I do believe abortion is used for birth control in some cases where un-educated men and women do not understand all of their options.

But...Rusty, isn't it tantamount to murder? I thought God totally said that in Jer.1:5!

I'm pro-choice and very involved in Planned Parenthood but I don't think a woman should be able to terminate an 8 month old fetus because she's stressed out! Suck it up, have the baby and put it up for adoption. It's not like being pregnant is still a secret. Geez.

I have to agree with Freerider here.

(BTW - Ana Marie says that Obama hasn't spoken with many women who've made this choice. I have to believe that Ana Marie refers to women who've made the choice to terminate a late term abortion. Ana Marie may know more about this than me, but I suspect that indeed, Obama hasn't spoken with many women in that condition for the simple reason that it's not very common for women to have abortions in their 7th or 8th month of pregnancy....).

Well I'll be, a nuanced and reasoned post from Rustydog. Will wonders never cease?
Hopefully we'll get to see more of that.

But the whole point of being pro-choice is not that you think all abortions are a great idea, it's that you don't think government should restrict access to them based on the reasons why a woman wants one.

I'm not sure I've heard the argument put like this before. I didn't realize there was a list somewhere of acceptable or unacceptable reasons - I thought it was more of a binary choice. Either you allow abortion to prevent needless suffering, or you don't (is what my view of the debate is).

Whether it makes sense to you or not, the position expressed by Obama happens to be the position held by a majority of Americans.

Okay, I never thought this would happen, but I agree completely with Rusty. I would also add that real counseling would be geared toward the individuals personal beliefs. If they want to practice abstinence then that decision should be supported.

But, I also think that a lot of women are unprepared for the effects emotionally an abortion will have on them and they need help with that also.

None of my business.

Off topic, but if you haven't seen this yet. You will enjoy it very much I think. You have to watch a short commerical first though

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2008/07/03/VI2008070302627.html

Amazingly Rustydog has nailed it. The keyword is choice. That's it. A woman's "right" to choose what happens to her body. It has nothing to do with suffering, needless or otherwise.

The center is a very messy place. Obama is bound to get in a trap he can't wriggle out of before too long. Nothing wrong with thatl happens to the best of 'em...

http://www.political-buzz.com/

I'm surprised that Rusty's idea of abstinence counseling for fully grown adults is so popular. Treat people like children and they will act like children.

I'm pro-choice and very involved in Planned Parenthood but I don't think a woman should be able to terminate an 8 month old fetus because she's stressed out!

as I read Obama, he's pointing out that this notion is pretty much a right-wing fantasy

I'm surprised that Rusty's idea of abstinence counseling for fully grown adults is so popular. Treat people like children and they will act like children.
Posted by Paul-no not that one |

Considering that (IIRC) 80% of twenty year olds are sexually active--and I think that number has been pretty steady for the last twenty years, I'm wondering where they're gonna find all these twenty-five year old virgins to sign up for abstinence support groups.

"the whole point of being pro-choice is not that you think all abortions are a great idea [ really?? ], it's that you don't think government should restrict access to them based on the reasons why a woman wants one."

I consider myself to be fundamentally pro-choice, but your statement (defining what is "pro-choice") does not appear to have any understanding of the past or present state of constitutional law or, indeed, the reasoning behind Roe v. Wade, which is based on a trimester framework. Thus, in the first trimester, yes, it should be, generally speaking, a woman's right to decide whether to abort. So, this may be done (and presumably is often done) for reasons of lifestyle, convenience, economics, societal concerns, age, and, of course, health of the mother. Basically, up to the mother, as you describe.

In the third trimester, however, as the fetus now becomes viable, then, yes, the state may and will intervene, and yes, there will be scrutiny into whether there are compelling reasons for the abortion of what is now a viable or near-viable fetus.

The partial abortion procedure is at the latter end of the third trimester. Reading a description of the procedure sounds (to me) like one step removed from infanticide. Do I think there should be a pretty $#&*#$ good reason for such a procedure to be performed? Absolutely. Life of the mother? Fine. Any reason the mother wants? Um, no.

Does that make me, like Obama, under your definition, not "pro-choice"?

While I agree that I find offensive certain "mostly pro-life" abortion positions, permitting exceptions only for rape & incest, insofar as this kind of standard is (apparently) hinged on a determination of whether or not the woman actually enjoyed the sex (or should have enjoyed the sex). The state should NOT, in my view, inquire into whether or not the woman enjoyed the sex. It's none of their #$&*(#$ business whether she enjoyed the sex.

But distinctions made on the level of fetal development are quite different, in my view.

One last point: given that we're in an election season -- do you care to offer a contrast on the "right-ness" of Mr. McCain's views on choice?

AMC, good post.

I agree with a ban on late-term abortions with exceptions for physical and mental health, but I too am uncomfortable with this "feeling blue" language. And I think Obama was referring to actual women with that reference, not just the Right's (some of the Right; thanks Rustydog for being so reasonable on this) perception of women. He seemed to be saying that "the pro-choice folks" don't think that feeling blue/mental distress is sufficient ground for late-term abortion. I basically agree with that. But it's a mistake to advance this perception of women having abortions because they are feeling blue.

I don't think this qualifies as a waffle necessarily. I myself am pro-choice but still have serious problems with late-term abortion to the point that I support the federal ban on it (exceptions for health/rape/incest aside, of course). I realize most abortions of this type (and of course in general) do not occur because the mother is simply having a "down day", but at the same time being pro-choice does not imply being in favor of all forms of abortion.

Posted by Jim, Foolish Literalist | July 7, 2008 7:55 PM
Considering that (IIRC) 80% of twenty year olds are sexually active--and I think that number has been pretty steady for the last twenty years, I'm wondering where they're gonna find all these twenty-five year old virgins to sign up for abstinence support groups.

Who represented that abstinence has anything to do with being a virgin or not. Just because I may have been stupid once, and had sex, unprotected because I did not know better and was not educated about it, does not mean that I would not be abstinent or make sure I used some form of birth control the 2nd and more times once I was given the opportunity to be educated?

...I think that may be the most reasonable statement I've ever seen from rustydog.

But who will pay for these Purity Rings, Rusty?

Oh heck, Something Blue you are making me blush. But, just go to the Jesse Helms blog post and read my comments about him. I am sure you will reassure yourself then that this may be a one-time agreement between myself and most of the liberal bloggers on here. LOL, just kidding.

My goal here in good 'ole Swampland is not to even believe for a second that I could possibly persude one commenter here to agree with most of my posts. I do however like to present what I feel is a rational alternative to most of the liberal crap that is posted. :-)

Considering that (IIRC) 80% of twenty year olds are sexually active--and I think that number has been pretty steady for the last twenty years, I'm wondering where they're gonna find all these twenty-five year old virgins to sign up for abstinence support groups.

Well, that's going by the strictest definition of abstinence--never ever having sex. It's possible that rather than this very strict definition, we encourage young people to be more selective in choosing who they sleep with.

Rusty, I think more than one poster is amazed at you earlier rational post. You the man, as the expression goes.

Lynn Anne lays out a more complicated scenario in which I am in total agreement.

I am pro-choice, yet, pro-life (not Pro-Life). At some point beyond the early stages of gestation, the state in entitled to protect the life created. That point seems to be a matter of debate. The extremists, like Bush, would have us believe that it is in the very first stage of joining of the egg and sperm cells, even to the point that such cells manufactured in a test tube are viable, worthy of the protection of the state.

I think you can back that illogical argument up to the fact that menstration, elimination of live cells, is a natural occurance, as is elimination of semen and sperm from the male body.

As far as Obama, in the general election he is obviously reaching out to the Bush base, mindless, simpleton religionists. I am disappointed, but hey, do what you gotta do, right? The only danger is crossing a line that will disenfrangise the center who may not turn out to vote, or vote for McCain. He should never forget that McCain is not as reviled as is Bush, and probably never will be.

On the abortion, I have read, and I believe, that the center majority of Americans are opposed to it, but also do not choose to allow government or religion to limit the individual woman's option.

this drives me frickin' nuts. Yes, of course states can regulate late term abortions. Roe v Wade says so. there is no compelling state interest before the point of viability, which Roe defines as the third trimester. After the point of viability, the fetus has a claim.

I think that you misunderstood what Obama is saying. He is saying that the Right protests late term abortion on the terms that women get one because they are just feeling "blue," by specifically formalizing the restrictions on late term abortion Obama is trying to do an end run around those morons.

Teresa, I agree with you, but it reads to me like something very poorly worded. It's fodder for the people who want to utilize any lingering bad feelings over the primary to split the pro-Clinton female vote from Obama's coalition, and if he'd articulated himself better that could have been avoided. That would be my objection here.

I'm sure, for example, that the Tennessee Guerrilla Women are up in arms about this statement, although I won't patronize their odious website to find out.

No, the bills the Right proposes for regulating late term abortion don't regulate late term abortion. They dishonestly label these bills, on purpose, to get them passed and then overturned. The bills are labeled 'late term abortion' in the media, but are actually restrictions on abortion methods, which reach into the the second term. Courts throw them out because they unconstitutionally regulate second term abortions, and because they don't account for the health of the woman (not the frickin' "mother"--that's another bit of wingnut framing you have resist), which the Court ruled is a reasonable condition of allowing the state to regulate a 3rd trimester abortion.

1. I had a friend who worked at planned parenthood and she used to complain about all the young catholic girls who would use abortion as birth control rather than use more conventional birth control. No joke.

2. And maybe the reason why isn't anyone's business but I think we can say that after so many weeks (20-24?) abortion is not morally acceptable and not allow it.

Heather-

1. You don't really want to get me started on Catholicism. It is ugly, and you won't like it.

2. I agree.

Outlawing abortions, passing laws so that pharmacies don't have to sell birth control to women - this would end in a heart-beat if - every man who went into a pharmacy was told that they could no longer get condoms, its against god's will, and the laws forcing men to pay child support went federal, so there was no where to run.
But no we are forcing women to have children they don't want, but not improving the child support systems in any of the states, or the ability of these newly minted unwilling mothers to collect child support - it may take two to get pregnant but these laws only punish one. (because we don't really care about the kids, just punishing those sexual women)
If men had to pay say a set amount of 600$ per child they knocked up, no exceptions, DNA test proof on every kid born in the country, no where to run, go to jail if you don't pay, doesn't matter if you are already married, but fooling a round, in a world were birthcontrol was as expensive and as hard to get as it is for a woman, if they got more than two women pregnant out of wedlock, mandatory snip snip - after all that procedure is low risk, an alot less dangerous, and less invasive than a nine month pregnancy. If it is ok to force women to have the baby, it must be ok to invade the male body to the same degree - after all the law needs to be gender blind, and everyone seems to think the government does have a say in medical decisions on your body.....this whole stupid thing would be over.
As long as its just a power trip for religious fanatics who need to get their own life, instead of power tripping, on controlling women's sex lifes, this conversation wouldn't even be happening.

Corinthia, I agree on the religion thing.

The rest really scares me. I may go buy a gun.

You hate men very much I can see.

Actually James I don't -- just pointing out what would happen to men if they were being treated equally on the whole fertility/government control of your body/and the new anti-birthcontrol laws coming out.

Lots of folks are comfortable with what is happening, until you point to make it fair to both genders, what the men should be going through.

The conservative movement is fine with taking birthcontrol away from women, but not men. It is fine with forcing women to have children, but not comfortable making the fathers pay for the kids. It is comfortable with the government stepping in and forcing women through a procedure, but would be shocked if you suggested the government could tell a man what to do with his body.

There is a very strong double standard. And saying pro-choice, pro-life whatever will change no ones mind -- but saying this for the guy would be the fair equal treatment - gets folks to back off, just like the woman who interviews the pro-life folks picking abortion clinics, asking them if they want to put the women in jail, turns out most of the folks interviewed never even thought about it.

That's very interesting, Corinthia. Those are some very fair and not at all antimale proposals. The new fathers would get off quite cheaply at just $600, which would pay for a few weeks of day care so the new mothers can get to work. The snip-snip is about as invasive as an IUD and would save a serial impregnator a lot of money.

How many abortions would be avoided if all the energy on the extremes of the issue were redirected into consensus support for voluntary alternatives?

Why isn't the murder of a fetus treated like a murder of a citizen in Spain- i.e. out of the jurisdiction of all the police and courts in the United States? Why is the interior of a human body a state or federal issue?

Let's say a fetus is life. Let's say a fetus feels pain. Let's say killing a fetus is murder and all these women will burn in Hell. Score one for the right wing.

Sorry, the US Supreme Court can't do anything about it because it's out of their legal jurisdiction. No murder outside the US of A. Sorry.

The US Courts can't have my liver either... unless I can declare my body the 51st State and apply for disaster relief.

I am sure pro choice groups will make the argument that any restrictions are a slippery slope with the end result being an end to easily available options for the poor. Defining what qualifies as a mental health exemption is a major problem for pro choice advocates. Who decides? Is it your own mental health professional or someone appointed by the state? Some shrink appointed by a fundamentalist christian wingnut in say, Alabama may have a very restrictive viewpoint.

I am sure pro choice groups will make the argument that any restrictions are a slippery slope with the end result being an end to easily available options for the poor. Defining what qualifies as a mental health exemption is a major problem for pro choice advocates. Who decides? Is it your own mental health professional or someone appointed by the state? Some shrink appointed by a fundamentalist christian wingnut in say, Alabama may have a very restrictive viewpoint.

I think james was commenting on your mandatory vasectomy idea. That seems excessive to me as well.
Of course, the kind of guys who would leave more than one pregnant woman behind are probably not going to change their ways and start contributing to society.

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AllPlayer |

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