Intern Survival Guide

Karen, could you or someone else do a post about the FISA capitulation happening today? StrangeBedfellows.com has raised about $100K in two days to wage a campaign to convince the Dems not to throw away the Bill of Rights.

It's a very interesting story. Please?

Hey KT, were there any telecom lobbyists on the lobbyist A-list? Please some FISA please. Please?

FWIW, Karen, Talking Points Memo reports that it was distributed to interns by a paid staffer. They have more of a reputation for truth than Young does, of course, but that matter doesn't seem to be settled at this point.

Red Snapper is right that (1) it's a mystery as to why the Democrats feel the need to distribute a get out of jail free card right now, and (2) that's a lot of money those Bedfellows are raising!

KT here--

RS: I'm on a train between NY and DC, so my ability to work the phones and go beyond what's in the stories is limited. My emailbox on my BlackBerry is jammed with statements from Democrats like Emanuel saying the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good, but I'm not in a situation where I can get anything more insightful about what is behind this deal. I will try to call Dodd's office when I get somewhere where I'm not broadcasting my interview to everyone on the Acela.

TPM has the rundown on who the ATeam is.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/don_youngs_interns_told_to_fav.php

Hey KT:
You know what I really enjoy?

Not getting spied on by my government! As well as being able to take action action those that do!

In some bizarre coincidence, our cowardly, perfidious (and apparently bizarrely monomiacal) elected officials are pushing through legislation that allows the government to do just that.

Now, call me naive if you will, but I feel that our "Representatives" should at some point heed the will of the populace, or at least take us into consideration.

This might be a good time for our press establishment to fulfill its intended role, and expose the actions of our spineless, corrupt, mealymouthed swindling political representatives.

I don't know. What do you think?

Thanks KT.

The key players seem to be Bond, Rockefeller and Hoyer.

Vote apparently in the House tomorrow.

note that that the strange bedfellows thing is a left/right alliance in support of the constitution.

Also KET:
I posted that before I read your response to RS, I believe you when you say you'll get to it.

Thanks KT I am dying to hear Dodd's thoughts on this.
He was very clear about fillibustering any immunity deals.

Feingold:

"The proposed FISA deal is not a compromise; it is a capitulation. The House and Senate should not be taking up this bill, which effectively guarantees immunity for telecom companies alleged to have participated in the President's illegal program, and which fails to protect the privacy of law-abiding Americans at home. Allowing courts to review the question of immunity is meaningless when the same legislation essentially requires the court to grant immunity. And under this bill, the government can still sweep up and keep the international communications of innocent Americans in the U.S. with no connection to suspected terrorists, with very few safeguards to protect against abuse of this power. Instead of cutting bad deals on both FISA and funding for the war in Iraq, Democrats should be standing up to the flawed and dangerous policies of this administration."

Dodd:

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Senator Chris Dodd (D-CT) today made the following statement in response to the compromise reached on the legislation that would reform the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA):

“I cannot support the so-called ‘compromise’ legislation announced today. This bill would not hold the telecommunications companies that participated in the President’s warrantless wiretapping program accountable for their actions. Instead, it would simply offer retroactive immunity by another name.

“As I have said time and time again, the President should not be above the rule of law, nor should the telecommunications companies who supported his quest to spy on American citizens. I remain strongly opposed to this deeply flawed bill, and I urge my colleagues in Congress to join me in supporting American’s civil liberties by rejecting this measure.”

Also KET:

Damn!
I don't know where that extra "E" came from.

I will try to call Dodd's office when I get somewhere where I'm not broadcasting my interview to everyone on the Acela..

Wise.

Thanks for keeping tabs on it, Karen.

As to Rahm's line, the question is, why is any legislation necessary?

FISA, which has been amended at least twice since 9/11, already permits wiretapping without a warrant, to be blessed later by the FISA Court. Why is this an emergency? What did the earlier amendments miss? If the cost of an amendment is blanket immunity for lawbreakers, why amend?

KT here--

Cliff: It comes from your ESP. My middle name is indeed Emily.

Oh, that Acela – three times the price, save maybe half an hour. How kewl.

The real questions are why the bill was drafted in secret, away from the prying eyes of judiciary staff.

It's a lot better ride, FlownOver. More reliable, and there are more electrical outlets.

I second Cliff.

Of the people, by the people, for the people.

May the Fourth Estate throw off the shackles of corporate dictatorship and rise again.

Thank-you!

Where is the presumptive Democratic candidate on this issue?

Thanks very much Karen. Anything you can do will be better than, well, nothing. Cheers!

FlownOver, once you've tried it, you really aren't in a hurry to go back. Traveling up and down the East Coast for $120 isn't extravagant anyway. Hell, it's probably cheaper than driving.

It's also better than the shuttle on the NYC/Boston ends, because you end up downtown. The metro takes you right in from national, so isn't that much of an improvement.

Cliff: It comes from your ESP. My middle name is indeed Emily.

Hell yeah!

KT here--

FlownOver: And power outlets! You forgot power outlets! I can work on the Acela.

FISA folks: Dodd has put out a statement denouncing the deal. I asked his office what he plans to do beyond denouncing (filibuster?). They have said they will get back to me. Will post when they do.

Thanks for the update KT.

I have to say this part worries me-
"I asked his office what he plans to do beyond denouncing (filibuster?). They have said they will get back to me."

Paul-NNTO: According to Greenwald, Obama claims to be a vigorous opponent of telecomm immunity, but is supporting a Blue Dog politician in Georgia:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/19/obama/index.html

So I'm pissed about that, too.

@KT,
Thanks for working the story.
A lot of us are of course very interested in the Obama reaction to these events and those of us who've contacted the campaign have just gotten reprints of the e-mail he sent in January.

Thanks Cliff, right now I care a whole lot more about the former than the latter so that's excellent news.
I wonder if it come to a filibuster and the rubber meets the road who will stand up.
Can Reid just pull it if there is enough pressure applied i.e. a threat of a filibuster?

Cliff--

I think it's the case that Obama recorded that ad before Regina Thomas entered into the primary contest.

Thanks KT. I know it's kind of rude to tell you what to blog about but we ask you because we know you care about what we want to read.

Reid can do whatever he wants. He could introduce a senate version. Start up the committee process again.

The problem is that a majority of senators, including a dozen or so Dems want telecom immunity to pass, and Reid is one of them.

Paul-NNTO: The reason I bring up the Blue Dog thing is because that particular politician, John Barrow, supports the FISA bill.

Obama supports the guy against a Dem candidate (Regina Thomas) who opposes the FISA bill.

So Obama talks a good game, but as Greenwald points out, is not following up on it very well at all.

We assume McCain is supporting this?

Reid and Co. have some ridiculous idea that by *not* caving like bitches that they will leave themselves open to criticism in August at Convention time.

Criticism from whom, I would like to know?

Why on earth would the Dems kick their base in the teeth this way? It is incomprehensible to me.

Thanks to all and especially KT for picking this up and running with it. Not to name names (the one who says "thou fool" is in danger of hell fire, and all that), but I really wish your fellow employees would get the hint, already!

KT rocks.

"The problem is that a majority of senators, including a dozen or so Dems want telecom immunity to pass, and Reid is one of them."
Do they have 2/3 to stop a filibuster?
And will Reid actually make Dodd talk on the floor rather than letting him off like he has the Republicans?

I hear you Cliff that's why I am very curious to see Obama's actual actions on this.
In a way Reid is rat (bleeping) his party's nominee by not handling this.

I think it's the case that Obama recorded that ad before Regina Thomas entered into the primary contest.

I hope that really is the case.

"Intern Survival Guide"?

Chapter I - How to give a Lewinski

Chapter II - How to remove the stained dress

Chapter III - How to lie under oath to protect a predatory, disgraced president

Chapter IV - ....

I just figured it out - texte doesn't read any of the responses to the original post!

This explains everything.

It seems that all the Washington Bureau Chiefs got together to complain to the Obama campaign that Obama isn't kissing enough of their fat asses.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/19/press-dissatisfied-with-t_n_108094.html

They're threatening to cover him *more* harshly if they don't get the sweet, sweet access they're entitled to!

KT here--

FISA folks: I'm back in the office, but not getting much by way of enlightenment on the Senate side. On the House side, it's clear that Pelosi wants this to happen. Here are the relevant quotes from her today. Have a call in to her office as well. Am heading out for a week of vacation tomorrow, so I'm trying to get this done tonight:

Tomorrow, we will be taking up the FISA bill.  As you probably know, the bill has been filed.  It is a balanced bill.  I could argue it either way, not being a lawyer, but nonetheless, I could argue it either way.  But I have to say this about it: it's an improvement over the Senate bill and I say that as a strong statement.  The Senate bill is unacceptable.  Totally unacceptable.  This bill improves upon the Senate bill. 
 
But you probably know that.  What you may not know is that it's improvement over the original FISA bill as well.  So it makes progress in the right direction.  But these bills depend on the commitment to the Constitution of the President of the United States and of his Justice Department.  So while some may have some complaints about this, that, or the other about the bill, it is about the enforcement, it is about the implementation of the law where our constitutional rights are protected. 
 
But I'm pleased that in Title I, there is enhancement over the existing FISA law.  Reaffirmation, I guess that's the word I'd looking for.  A reaffirmation that FISA and Title III of the Criminal Code are the authorities under which Americans can be collected upon.  It makes an improvement over current law and the Senate bill in terms of how you can collect on Americans overseas. 
 
It's an improvement over the Senate bill in terms of – the Senate wanted to say, “Okay, we will agree to exclusivity,” which is, in my view, the biggest issue in the bill, that the law is the exclusive authority and not the whim of the President of the United States.  They said, “We will agree to exclusivity, but only a narrow collection of things will fall that that category.  Under the rest, the President has inherent authority under the Constitution.”   That's out.  That's out, thank heavens. 
 
And it is again in Title II, an improvement over the Senate bill in that it empowers the District Court, not the FISA Court, to look into issues that relate to immunity.  It has a strong language in terms of an Inspector General to investigate how the law has been used, is being used, will be used. 
 
So that will be legislation that we take up tomorrow.  We will have a lively debate I'm sure within our caucus on this subject and in the Congress.  It has bipartisan support. 
 
I commend Steny Hoyer for his important work on this legislation, working in a bipartisan way.  On the supplemental, Mr. Obey, as usual his virtuoso self, and Chairman Rangel was masterful in his piece of the legislation.  As much as I admire Mr. Murtha, I'm not as enthusiastic about the war part of the bill and will not be supporting it. 

I threw up in my mouth while I was reading that.

I want to just quickly thank KT for looking into this and to the commentors here for bringing it to her attention.

Quote from article Cliff linked...

"But it's critical to keep in mind that Obama is a politician and, like all people, is plagued by significant imperfections. He has largely entrenched himself in, and is dependent upon, the power structure he says he wants to undermine. Uncritical devotion to political leaders, including him, is destructive. Obama needs pressure, criticism, checks, and real scrutiny just like anyone else in power in order to keep him accountable, responsive, and faithful to the principles he claims are the ones driving him."

I couldn't agree with this more. The democrats haven't done themselves any favors since 2006. At this point the Democratic party needs Obama not the other way around.

They cave on everything! $50B for children's healthcare, nope can't afford it, but we can dole out stimulus checks, and war funding, and re-new Blackwaters contract, can't stop torture, can't enforce the constitution, and on, and on.

I believe I will be voting for Obama in November, but I am actually hoping for a third-party landslide in the congressional races. If there are any third-parties running? I think over half of the races in Washington State are uncontested...so much for democracy (just the way the dems and repubs like it).

If you only read one Coulter column this week, make it this one...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucac/20080619/cm_ucac/justicekennedyamericanidle;_ylt=AhqB4kpbF6JATLqjhfxOnjQ__8QF

Sweet Allissa Millano be praised!

Thanks for checking up on this, KT!

Everyone (at least all you train jockeys)

I'm an old-school guy. Train travel is for reading and looking out the window. No outlets necessary.

Now if we had High speed capable, dedicated passenger rail lines where something like Acela could strut its stuff, I'd be there.

and obamish, rest assured, if read one Ann Coulter column this week it'll be with a gun to my head.

KT:

I join in the thanks for the FISA update.

Looks like they edited in a fig leaf, without giving us any real protection from Boris Bush and Natasha Cheney.

KT here--

Alas, FlownOver, the High Sheriffs are stern taskmasters. No time for daydreaming. Output! Output! Or there will be another Stakhanovite worker at my desk when I return from vacation...

Here's a game I like to play:
"How many times would I have to be stabbed in the junk before I read a single word written by Anne Coulter?"

Just kidding, I don't like to play that game at all.

KT here--

Still not coming up with anything postable. Senate folks tell me they are waiting to see what the House does before deciding what to do on this. But they are telling me there's a better than 50/50 chance it passes. I'd say the guy to watch in all of this is Harry Reid.

Thanks again for this Karen.

Well if any one is counting on Harry Reid they are in for a big friggin disappointment. Mr. Reid did his best to get this passed the last time.

"Expects you to open doors for him..."

Welcome to Washington, young student. Here's your bowl of sh*t. We're out of spoons.

BrendanB - that is excellent.

While trying not to panic - life does go on, even after our elected representatives screw us over - what are our options for recourse in the event that this bill passes, and the telcos get immunity? Can we somehow file suit against this bill and challenge its Constitutionality?

The Pelosi quote says the fix is in. But it would be helpful to press her on what elements of this version resolves the concerns that killed the last bill. That press statement is "trust us."

We don't.

"but I'm not in a situation where I can get anything more insightful about what is behind this deal. I will try to call Dodd's office when I get somewhere where I'm not broadcasting my interview to everyone on the Acela."

Ironic, considering that you'll be broadcasting your interview to whomever might be listening on the phone as well. Glad to see that a nation that currently holds 2.5 million behind bars is so accommodating of those unlucky few saddled w/ the responsibility of wealth and political connection. God bless America!

Goodness gracious, what a hideous statement from Pelosi. "I'm not a lawyer, and they tell me this thing is a little better than the Senate bill, and hey, who am I to say otherwise? Good enough for government work."

The key part of the bill is a "reaffirmation," and it all depends on the good will of the Bush DOJ?!? Then DON'T PASS ANYTHING, for goodness sakes. What a disgraceful cop-out.

As for Obama, given his willingness to hit back against the GOP on national security, I don't doubt that a Democratic Party after 4-8 years of his leadership would be a better Party. But you go into the election with the Party you have, not the Party you wish you had. This explains, but does not excuse, his Kerry 04-like tip-toeing on this issue.

And as everyone else has said, Karen, thanks for your attention to this issue, and thanks for posting the updates in this thread. $20 to the Strange Befellows, and one subscription to TIME magazine for me. Thank you for caring about what your readers think.

Here's a related article on Slashdot:

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/19/1931226

In which I rebut Joe Klein on FISA

Commenters:

I hope that you will bear with me as I unwrap Joe's positions (as such), because these arguments, as foolish and disingenuous as they are, really can't be allowed to stand unchallenged --as they stand today in Washington circles. These arguments are particularly revealing, not only of the insularity and myopia that characterizes the Beltway political and media scene, but of the base social instincts and appalling lack of consistent, coherent principles imbued in the very core of political life in our nation's capital and in our national media elites.

Let's take these one by one, shall we?

1. It was necessary to update the FISA law to make legal the new technologies that enable intelligence agencies to suss out suspicious patterns of phone calls, emails etc between known terrorists and persons in the United States and U.S. citizens abroad.

What "new technologies"?
How does Joe know about these "new technologies"?
Why don't we know about their use?

What does "suss out suspicious patterns" mean?
How is this exercise substantially different from invisibly breaking into every single American citizens' homes, and attempting to "suss out suspicious patterns" of behavior in people's living rooms? How is this exercise substantially different from the police secretly opening (and resealing) Americans' letters, and reading every word in the attempt to "suss out suspicious patterns" of communications?

How is this exercise substantially different from the practices of the state during the Soviet era in Russia?

2. There was broad consensus in the Congress that if a suspicious pattern of communications is found and a U.S. person is targeted, there needs to be approval granted by the FISA court. And, as Nancy Pelosi insisted, it needed to be established that the FISA law was the only way to legally wiretap an individual--in other words, under this law the Executive can't just go ahead and do it.

"There was broad consensus in the Congress" that it should be against the law for citizens to be secretly listened in on by the state in the absence of a warrant, and so it enacted the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, making such unwarranted spying illegal.
Approval by the FISA court is what the FISA statute was for in the first place. Nancy Pelosi's insistence isn't terribly meaningful, since she's insisting on something that exists under the law already. Appeals to "consensus" don't confer legitimacy on bad law, as the "Authorization for the Use of Military Force" of 2002 clearly demonstrates.

3. The NSA data-mining program legalized by this law was and is still opposed by small factions on the right and the left:

Again, what "NSA data-mining program"? Even if Joe's somehow privy to key cabinet-level details of this "program", surely the entire Congress is not, and certainly not the American people. If there is a mysterious and yet entirely legitimate "NSA data-mining program" to legalize, then surely the law has been repeatedly broken for the past seven or eight years, hasn't it?
These entirely rhetorical attempts to marginalize opposition to law-breaking, and support of normal American judicial process are as disingenuous as they are absurd.

Poll after poll tell us something like this:

By a 76 - 19 percent margin, American voters say the government should continue monitoring phone calls or e-mail between suspected terrorists in other countries and people in the U.S., according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today. But voters say 55 - 42 percent that the government should get court orders for this surveillance.

Voters in "purple states," 12 states in which there was a popular vote margin of 5 percentage points or less in the 2004 Presidential election, plus Missouri, considered the most accurate barometer of Presidential voting, want wiretap warrants 57 - 39 percent.

Red states, where President George W. Bush's margin was more than 5 percent in 2004, disagree 51 - 46 percent with the President that the government does not need warrants. Blue state voters who backed John Kerry by more than 5 percent want warrants 57 - 40 percent, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University poll finds.

A total of 57 percent of voters are "extremely" or "quite" worried that phone and e-mail taps without warrants could be misused to violate people's privacy. But 54 percent believe these taps have prevented some acts of terror.

"Don't turn off the wiretaps, most Americans say, but the White House ought to tell a judge first. Even red state voters, who backed President Bush in 2004, want to see a court okay for wiretaps," said Maurice Carroll, Director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

There simply does not exist such an "extremist civil liberties fringe"; the American people's common sense is what truly lies at the heart of opposition to warrant-less spying --and lawbreaking.

4. In classic Washington fashion, both these groups seized on a subsidiary provision--the granting of immunity to telecommunications companies that had cooperated with the initial, illegal NSA program--as a way to block passage of the bill.

In classic Washington fashion, a bogey-man has been introduced in order to deliberately obscure the essence of the action being voted on, which is to allow the President to break whatever laws Congress passes --even this one-- by rendering him and his agencies immune from judicial oversight. Here's a perfect description of the real consequences of retro-actively legalizing such "cooperation" from radical, extremist, fringe-worthy, partisan lunatic Al Gore:

The President and I agree on one thing. The threat from terrorism is all too real. There is simply no question that we continue to face new challenges in the wake of the attack on September 11th and that we must be ever-vigilant in protecting our citizens from harm.

Where we disagree is that we have to break the law or sacrifice our system of government to protect Americans from terrorism. In fact, doing so makes us weaker and more vulnerable.

Once violated, the rule of law is in danger. Unless stopped, lawlessness grows. The greater the power of the executive grows, the more difficult it becomes for the other branches to perform their constitutional roles. As the executive acts outside its constitutionally prescribed role and is able to control access to information that would expose its actions, it becomes increasingly difficult for the other branches to police it. Once that ability is lost, democracy itself is threatened and we become a government of men and not laws.

Crazed partisan bill-poisoners like the former Vice-President haven't "seized on a subsidiary provision", they have simply joined a majority of the American people in expressing an almost comically normal disapproval of law-breaking.

5. The compromise reached requires a federal court to approve, or disapprove, the requests for immunity--with approval granted if the company in question can prove that it received a written request from the government asking for cooperation in the implementation of the NSA program. In other words, the telecoms would be exempted from prosecution if they cooperated in ways that will now be perfectly legal under the new law.

Super. So if Alberto Gonzales' successors provide a "written request" for Federal Express to photo-copy every letter from Americans that they deliver, so that the state may open and read them all in secret, that's all perfectly fine and in keeping with our system of government. The proposed law requires the judicial branch to confirm the legality of whatever the Executive says that they did --even if it wasn't at the time. It's absolutely a testament to the insanity of our time that we're back to debating the advisability (and constitutionality) of ex post facto laws:

(from the Latin for "After The Fact") or retroactive law, is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences of acts committed or the legal status of facts and relationships that existed prior to the enactment of the law. In reference to criminal law, it may criminalize actions that were legal when committed; or it may aggravate a crime by bringing it into a more severe category than it was in at the time it was committed; or it may change or increase the punishment prescribed for a crime, such as by adding new penalties or extending terms; or it may alter the rules of evidence in order to make conviction for a crime more likely than it would have been at the time of the action for which a defendant is prosecuted. Conversely, a form of ex post facto law commonly known as an amnesty law may decriminalize certain acts or alleviate possible punishments (for example by replacing the death sentence with life-long imprisonment) retroactively.

Generally speaking, ex post facto penal laws are seen as a violation of the rule of law as it applies in a free and democratic society. Most common law jurisdictions do not permit retroactive criminal legislation, though some have suggested that judge-made law is retroactive as a new precedent applies to events that occurred prior to the judicial decision. In some nations that follow the Westminster system of government, such as the United Kingdom, ex post facto laws are technically possible as the doctrine of parliamentary supremacy allows parliament to pass any law it wishes. However, in a nation with an entrenched bill of rights or a written constitution, ex post facto legislation may be prohibited.

There simply is no order or request that the state can give that absolves the order-taker from the responsibility to act lawfully and morally, and for that liability to be examined and judged according to due process in a court of law. That's what the Nuremburg trials were in part meant to convey about and to the civilized world.

My feeling, from the start, has been that the NSA data-mining operation is a necessary tool in the hunt for terrorists who mean to do us harm--but that the FISA law needed to be updated to include civil liberties protections and limitations guiding the use of the program.

I hope that Joe will forgive me for not particularly caring about his "feelings" with respect the further abridgment of my own constitutional rights and the rule of law in this, my, country. It is increasingly apparent as our fortunes and our dignity in the world declines that this precious inheritance is all we may have left of our nation's greatness, and that this treasure of ours is under threat of destruction from a tiny fringe minority interested solely in the preservation of its own privileges, protections and way of life (in true "classic Washington fashion"): Beltway Society, its sycophants and its servants.

I favor the compromise because I believe the civil liberties encoded into the law are important, and because I wanted to deprive the Bush Administration, and the McCain campaign, of the political bludgeon.

And so we come to understand that the real motivation for Joe's position isn't principle or fact --it's fear. Joe is once again merely afraid of being rhetorically "bludgeoned" by Republicans. This is not extraordinary for the class of person that inhabits Joe's world, but it is revealing of the cravenness that passes for normalcy in their society.

...their cooperation with the government, at a moment when just about everyone was freaking out about the terrorist threat (i.e.--right after 9/11) was understandable.

This is really the essence of Joe's (and the Village's) entire argument: "We aren't responsible for enabling any of the terrible policies of the past eight years, because the attacks on September 11th, 2001 scared us so badly". Since "everyone was freaking out", everything can be excused, nothing deserves condemnation, least of all "cooperation with the government". The war can now be "opposed" from a safe distance, with all involve secure in the knowledge that their roles in helping this same government lie to Americans will be forever forgiven in light of how "freaked out" everyone was. The existence of Japanese-American internment camps testifies to the moral bankruptcy of this position.

Prosecuting them now, for past actions that will become legal when this bill is passed, is analogous to prosecuting doctors who performed abortions before Roe v. Wade after the court ruled...or prosecuting speakeasy owners after prohibition was overturned.

...or prosecuting the Bush Administration for the sanctioning of torture, or censuring the President and his cabinet for lying to the American people about "mushroom clouds" so that they could invade a sovereign country that was no threat, or suing the government for holding innocents in indefinite detention with no due process. None of these are analogous in the slightest, because of one key fact that Joe manages to omit.

Liberal-friendly rhetoric aside, there is no analogy to "doctors who performed abortions before Roe v. Wade", because we don't know what the telecoms actually did. That is the key fact that Joe cleverly leaves out. We have no idea whether the conduct of the telecoms (and, by extension, the Bush Administration) was that which may be legalized going forward by the bill in question, because all we do know at this point is that there were at least two secret rooms constructed at AT&T and Verizon facilities equipped in a way as to seem to indicate that they routed all communications through secret government channels. That's all we know. What retroactive amnesty provides is not that the telecoms will be immunized from prosecution (remember, these are private complaints, not prosecutions) with respect to newly legal activity described in the bill, but amnesty against any lawbreaking whatsoever, as long as the government produces a secret letter saying "we authorized something that we can't tell you about". This isn't about putting abortion providers in jail after Roe v Wade, it's about granting effective immunity from any crimes committed by anyone, private company or government official, by eliminating the American court's traditional role in discovering whether any illegal activity had taken place, and by prohibiting any judicially sanctioned examination of what took place at all.

This is what the difference is. In a fit of television drama-esque discovery, we may find out in the course of these lawsuits that the government had people murdered to keep their activities secret, and that the President knew and approved. We may not. The fact is that we don't know what happened, and that's all we do know. Immunizing the telecoms in a secret court from all lawsuits relating to secret government orders, as this bill seeks to do, would keep the entire country from knowing what, if any, illegal activity went on, and whether it was even within the scope of illegality under FISA. There haven't been any prosecutions (yet), because we don't even know the full extent of what the Bush Administration did. That's why Joe's analogy fails so miserably to describe the reality of the situation the country faces.

Of course, if the telecoms engaged in actions that would be considered illegal even after the FISA compromise is passed, they should be prosecuted.

"Of course" we'll never know what actually happened after the court cases get thrown out, won't we? Joe's argument is particularly offensive in its seemingly deliberate obtuseness. Has Joe ever heard of the phrase "Catch-22"?

There are those, like Senator Russ Feingold and assorted civil liberties activists, who believe that the legalization of this program erodes essential constitutional rights of Americans. I respect their point of view, but believe that the greater good here will be the protection of Americans from terrorist attacks--and the prevention of extremist governments like George W. Bush's from illegally spying on U.S. residents.

Right: it's back to those scary, peacenik, sign-waving "activists" again, and the admirable, if pathetic Don Quixote-Feingold. Beyond that strawman, however, is the absurd claim that this bill somehow prevents the "illegal spying on U.S. residents". It does so only in the most Kafka-esqe sense, however, by simply making whatever the President does legal. As long as the Administration provides a court with a document of its orders, it can order anyone to do anything, and the court is instructed by this law to therefore proclaim as perfectly legal whatever that order might be.

Only in a political culture as warped as the one in which we currently live would someone like Joe be capable of selling the idea that we'll all be "protected from illegal domestic spying" by making all domestic spying legal with a straight face, and not be called either a lunatic or a scoundrel.

It is in these times especially, as in the McCarthy hearing era, that we need a leader of a popular movement to publicly stand up to the purveyors of these lies and distortions, and protect the constitution on our behalf. It is precisely because arguments like Joe's --prevailing arguments in the Beltway bubble-- are so ubiquitous within the political establishment, so disingenuous, so wrong on the facts, so filled with the self-justifications, imaginations and conceits of their authors, and so ultimately damaging to the democratic experiment in our country, that Barack Obama must speak out now, loudly in defense of liberty and the rule of law.

We've heard from the likes of Joe; where is Barack Obama?

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أشـهار زاحفه
http://www.z7fh.com/ns.html
دليل مطور زاحفه
http://www.z7fh.com/mtwer_links/index.php
http://www.z7fh.com/
http://www.z7fh.com/up/
http://www.z7fh.com/up/cv_rss_feeds.php
http://www.z7fh.com/up/info.php?
http://www.z7fh.com/up/external.php?type=RSS2
http://www.z7fh.com/sitemap.php
http://www.z7fh.com/sitemap2.php
http://www.z7fh.com/up/ror.txt
http://www.z7fh.com/ror.txt
http://www.z7fh.com/sitemap.xml
http://www.z7fh.com/up/sitemap.html
http://www.z7fh.com/up/sitemap.xml
http://www.z7fh.com/up/sitemap.php
http://www.z7fh.com/up/sitemap2.php
http://www.z7fh.com/up/sitemap.xml
http://www.z7fh.com/up/sitemap.php
http://www.z7fh.com/up/external.php?type=rss2
http://www.z7fh.com/up/external.php?type=xml
http://www.z7fh.com/up/archive/index.php
http://www.z7fh.com/up/member.php?u=2
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=9
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=8
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=46
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=7
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=10
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=54
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=12
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=13
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=14
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=38
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=16
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=17
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=18
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=44
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=20
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=21
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=22
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=23
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=25
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=26
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=42
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=28
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=41
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=27
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=49
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=37
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=58
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=30
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=31
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=43
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=32
http://www.z7fh.com/up/forumdisplay.php?f=36

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