Unfortunate Comment of the Day

Karen - oops - I was addressing this on the last thread while you were posting. I find it hard to believe superdelegates are excited that Hillary has so cravenly invoked class warfare against her own party. She is indeed sounding like Karl Rove more and more (hey, it worked for him.)

And um, Hillary, we've had a president who used "all the tools of the presidency." Some of us are looking forward to a president who is willing to reign in the imperial presidency, not expand it.

she really is sounding more like bush every day!! change the word economist for scientist and tell me who ways things like that

I also thought it was curious Hillary brought up that George S. used to work for her. It must have made some viewers who hadn't realized this reflect on the ABC news debate's skewering of Obama.

Bob Reich went upside Hillary's head on this quote over on his blog yesterday. He quotes one of her own staffers as saying that she was engaging in "politics as usual."

Those economists are so elitist for believing they understand the economy, when it's the average Joe, the hardworking single mother scraping by, that should be dictating complex trade negotiations and setting interest rates. These people may not have so called "book learning," but they have "street smarts." And really, when dealing with the mortgage crisis, what matters more - a harvard degree in economics or the ability to raise a child while working in a mill?

If Suzie Ritardato says we need a gas tax holiday, how can we say no to her and her seven children? Thank you for looking out for the little guy, Hillary!

How about a McCain-Clinton Unity Ticket? "The first thing we do, let's kill all the economists."

Unbelievable.

I have some sympathy for Hillary on this: perhaps a way can be found to give relief to the poor who have to drive to work in old cars. Robert Reich and others have been taking shots at Hillary for some time. And I get the point about economists. After all where were they when the mortgage crisis was building up?

Bailing out banks on the taxpayer's dime: no problem. Tax breaks for the rich: simple. Help th poor: Huston we have a problem.

Rebate checks to taxpayers: what was that about?

All the high minded stuff spouted by Obama: well, didn't he ask for a break on gas prices when he was State Senator?

Thanks for highlighting this. I'm finding this to be among the stupidest things I've encountered yet and there's been no shortage of stupidity in this campaign.

It's now apparent that education and expertise are now shameful attributes that should be avoided at all costs lest someone decide that you think you're better than them. For Clinton to use the word 'elitist' now as a synonym for 'smart' has officially driven debate into the gutter.

As you can tell, I'm touchy on the subject because I think that pandering to emotional reactions and discouraging critical thinking is the core problem that is infecting our debate on every important issue we face, particuraly in regard to the Middle East conflict.

But Hillary Clinton has just managed to insult the intelligence of every American. Ironicaly, that is exactly what 'elitist' means.

Pat - as he pointed out, he "learned from that mistake." One of the things that makes this suggestion craven, as opposed to a good idea, is that neither candidate is in a position to bring this to fruition in the next month.

And yes, agree with you that economists in general have a lot to answer for, especially with the mortgage crisis. But you're not suggesting, are you, that we should pay no attention to economists? (Tax cuts for the rich are politicaly driven, and sometimes by Republican economists.)

(Have to go work. will check in later)

Talk about alien abduction. Evidently Karl Rove abducted the liberal anti-war Hillary we all knew and replaced her with a pro gun, war mongering expert who possesses all the knowledge she needs to make decisions without the advice of scholars, generals or anyone else not named Hillary Clinton.

Seems like Hillary has become more George W. Bush than McCain. The problem for Democrats is that Hillary has just proven that pandering, tough talk, war mongering, positioning your opponent as elitists and yourself as the expert no matter what the field still works in elections. Expect more of this in the fall from the Republicans.

Question: What's next from Hillary? Perhaps she jumps on the anti-evolution bandwagon to secure the votes of the ultra religious conservations. Someone out there in the media please ask her an evolution question and she what she does with it. Inquiring minds want to know.

@Pat

"All the high minded stuff spouted by Obama: well, didn't he ask for a break on gas prices when he was State Senator?"

Yep, he did. And you know what happened, the tax break they gave oil companies wasn't passed on to consumers in Illinois. The oil companies just kept it as extra income.

Obama says he thought it was a good idea, but it didn't work, now he realises it's a silly idea. Yay for someone unwilling to repeat their past mistakes.

What's really dangerous about this plan is that it will take money away from infrastructure projects in the US. The tax is used to build roads and bridges. The US needs to invest more money in building and repairing infrastructure - it creates jobs and prevents bridges from collapsing. The "tax holiday" does the opposite, it takes money away from these projects and gives it to oil companies.

In what possible way could it possibly be a good idea?

After all where were they when the mortgage crisis was building up?

Ever heard of Nouriel Roubini? Barry Ritholtz? Calculated Risk? Naked Capitalism? Robert Shiller?

The warnings were out there if you wanted to listen.

KathyR, the GOP press agrees with you. ""She is acting like one of our own."

pat,
the econs were screaming about the mortgage business for the last 10 yrs...but noone listened

Yes, perhaps that can be found.

What she's proposing, though, is only going to give more money to the oil companies. It's not going to help "the poor who have to drive to work in old cars" one iota.

I can hardly stand to read the news recently, this campaign has become so idiotic. I used to be pissed at HRC for her negative, distorted attacks on Obama, but not I'm more disgusted with her policy proposals. It used to be that there was virtually no difference on the issues between the Dems, but recently it looks like there's no difference between Hillary and McCain. If she pulls this off and wins the nomination, which looks increasingly likely, I'm actually starting to think the unthinkable, about not voting, or voting for a third-party candidate. Too bad Nadar is dead to me after 2000.

KathyR: have no issues with your comments. But our economists have been wrong on some major issues, have been ideologically driven (supply side?) and have generally favoured the market.

My concern: whenever it comes to helping the poor we always find reasons for not doing something. They simply don't have electoral clout. When it comes to tax breaks for the rich the system goes into overdrive. That is rarely called pandering.

I agree that Obama learned but he still pandered when it suited him to help his political career as Clinton has done and is doing. Do I agree with pandering? No. But do I think we have to find a way to help the poor: yes, I do.

For the record I am an elitist and make no apologies: I happen to like Chablis and White wine and have a home on the south of France (Tassin-la-Demilune). I drank that way back in the sixties while my hippie friends were smoking pot.

Take care, KathyR. I start work at noon so talk to you later.

Karen-

Will anyone in your profession look up the quotes from Bush as to why we needed his tax cuts in 2001 and 2002? According to his rhetoric, we needed the tax cuts so that by about 2007 and 2008 the economy would really be percolating. Seems like there might be a story there.

To fellow posters before I leave: I take all points. Even Gerri Willis on CNN talked about the mortgage meltdown. The point is the meltdown happened. What does that tell us?

We can come up with dozens of examples to rebut an argument. Tell me what can be done to give relief to someone who needs to fill a tank, travel 35 miles to and 35 miles back from work in a diner - pay? - and feed two kids. My only solution was to give her a $50 gas gift card. Embarrassing.

Pat:

No dispute about the need to do something to help the poor; the problem is that the Clinton gas tax proposal WILL NOT HELP AT ALL. If she doesn't realize they oil companies will just raise prices to cover the windfall she's unfit to be President.

Malcolm-

It is not "increasingly likely" that HRC will pull off the nomination. Chuck Todd has been saying for two months now, in his roundabout way, that this race is over. There is no way, with the proportional representation of the Dem primaries, that Clinton can overcome Obama's lead. The only caveat is that she would need to win the remaining contests by about 60-40. It ain't gonna happen. What we have witnessed for two months is a media parlor game.

Take that, Paul Krugman.

I suppose this is to be expected. I mean, she's been ignoring that elitist math that says she can't win the delegate count and probably won't win the popular vote for a while now, so economics was bound to face her derision at some point.

What she really ought to do now is cement her political transformation by purchasing a ranch and spending the next month clearing brush off of it.

Is it still cool to say jumped the shark or has jumping the shark jumped the shark? In any case, HIllary has jumped the shark with this latest foray into stupidity.

Every thinking that Obama does not have the American peoples interest at heart, pay attention to what he is saying about the gas tax. Yes he did vote for it in his own state but from his EXPERIENCE with the subject he found out that it did not work. He realized that the tax break does not trickle down to the consumer. The big oil companies will in all probability pocket the the money and raise gas prices even higher. He is trying to get you to realize this. So those of you that think you would save $3.60 on a $72 tank of gas think again, you may be actually paying more for that tank of gas than you were before the gas rebate that Clinton is proposing. I know you people have the ability to see this tax rebate for what it is,an increase at the pump.

As for a Gas Tax Holiday, John McCain or Hillary will not be President this summer so how can John McCain or Hillary really Implement this idea into FACT.. they can't! It is a gimmick that they cannot produce on... That is so sad, and another example of Politicians trying to fool people for a vote on an idea or Gift they can't deliver on or produce. It's basically dishonest and a lie! Barack will not make a Phony Promise to the American people!

Media is also disingenuous and complicit in this gas-tax holiday lie and myth! First because they know a President would have to sign off on this and, second because they fail to enquire of Hillary or John, just how they plan to sign this into Law when they in fact will not be President this summer! So,once again the Republican-controlled media fail the people by NOT pointing out the obvious! Failed us as they did with Iraq.

As for the obliteration of Iran remark, we should recall what Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill wrote in position 8 after World War II in The Atlantic Charter, both who knew and were familiar with the horrors of war....

Position "Eighth, they believe that all of the nations of the world, for realistic as well as spiritual reasons must come to the abandonment of the use of force. Since no future peace can be maintained if land, sea or air armaments continue to be employed by nations which threaten, or may threaten, aggression outside of their frontiers, they believe, pending the establishment of a wider and permanent system of general security, that the disarmament of such nations is essential. They will likewise aid and encourage all other practicable measures which will lighten for peace-loving peoples the crushing burden of armaments."

Frankllin D. Roosevelt
Winston S. Churchill

Less we forget!

P.S. On Morning Joe, Joe said as they watched a clip today of Hillary speaking in Indianna and commented on how Inspirational she had become. What they did not say is that the speech sounded an awful lot like a Barack Obama Speech!

1) Economics is akin to psychology. It is not a hard science in a lot of ways like engineering. If it was we would have a great economy all the time.

2) Harold Ford Jr. was on Morning Joe this morning and he and Joe were saying Obama was missing the boat on this one. Ford Jr. said that while $30 doesn't sound like much to elites in Manhatten, it is a lot to working class people, truck drivers, etc... He agreed with Hillary that people did not blink when the government bailed out Bear Stearns (while agreeing we were right to do so), but when it comes to helping working class people everyone is up in arms. Of course Mika was talking about Hillary pandering etc... The point Joe and Harold Ford were making is that it was great to have long term plans, but people are hurting NOW and really need some short term relief.

Hey waitaminit--

And yes, agree with you that economists in general have a lot to answer for, especially with the mortgage crisis.

It's not economists who are to blame. They're not the ones who think financial markets should be left unregulated because the actors in those markets have incentives to lie, cheat and steal.

But I have to say that Kathy and Pat's comments blaming "economists" (echoing George Wallace's "pointy-headed liberals") does indicate that she is mining a vein with this.

"The point Joe and Harold Ford were making is that it was great to have long term plans, but people are hurting NOW and really need some short term relief."

Yes but all the experts agree that the Clinton and McCain plan will not provide short term relief.

TK--

By posting that, are you agreeing with Ford's sentiment. For me, it just make Ford sound like the tool he is, who lost us a key senate seat by running a stupid DLC campaign.

Ah Derek, but those "experts" are largely "economists."

Apparently economists are egghead elitists but graphic designers are just salt-of-the-earth folks.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Clinton_mailings_gun_gaffe.html

Of course the gun image was reversed to aid in the flow of the pamphlet it appears in, and of course interpreting it as meaningful is truly moronic, but I still couldn't help linking.

jayackroyd I'm a victim of my education which has turned me into an elitist. Maybe I should get a plumber to do my next physical or go to a sex therapist to get my teeth filled. It's amazing how out of touch one can become if one doesn't drop out of school at 16.

TeresaKopec: ..but people are hurting NOW and really need some short term relief.

Then Clinton should get back to Congress and push for price controls, a crack down on commodities market speculators, and a windfall profits tax instead of pandering to the anti-tax and anti-intellectual Republican 'Joe six-pack' voters she's pinned her hopes of winning the Democratic nomination on.

Grape--Crush: Then Clinton should get back to Congress and push for price controls, a crack down on commodities market speculators, and a windfall profits tax instead of pandering to the anti-tax and anti-intellectual Republican 'Joe six-pack' voters she's pinned her hopes of winning the Democratic nomination on.
------------------

Last time I looked Obama was a senator too. What is he doing in Congress right now to provide short term relief?

jayackroyd:By posting that, are you agreeing with Ford's sentiment. For me, it just make Ford sound like the tool he is, who lost us a key senate seat by running a stupid DLC campaign.

-----------------------
Wow. Pretty nasty. I thought Ford ran a great campaign in Tennessee and came close to winning in a red state. Remember he had a lot of family baggage that drug him down and he still barely lost despite race baiting commercials run by the RNC.

I do agree with Harold. The last Democrat who won the presidency was Bill Clinton and he did it by recognizing the economic stress ordinary people are under. When you are a millionaire like Obama -- who has already alienated some voters with his "bitter" remarks, I don't think it sounds great to say, "You'll only save $25." Believe it or not, $25 is a lot of money to some families.

Actually, the unfortunate comment of the day was "Here's your host, George Stephanopoulos."

The point Joe and Harold Ford were making is that it was great to have long term plans, but people are hurting NOW and really need some short term relief.

Then they should propose something that will actually provide it, instead of this ineffective, gimmicky pander.

As economists have pointed out, suppliers are supplying as much gas as they can in the summertime. If the government taxes it less, the suppliers can continue to charge the same price.

But hey, what do those pointy-headed academics know? Just a bunch of nattering nabobs of negativity.

Reasonable people can disagree whether Clinton's campaign is more reminiscent of Karl Rove, or of Spiro Agnew.

TK-

You must be one of those "destiny voters" who support Hillary because she is going to be the last woman to have a serious shot at the Presidency in their lifetimes. If so, would you seriously consider voting for McCain if Obama is the Dem nominee?

Has anyone told Krugman?

Derek,

I also am a elitist victim of my education. And I'll go you one further. I want dubya to do brain surgery on me, whether I need it or not.

On the same topic, here's what a science blogger in NC found Clinton saying to the hicks (via Sully):

"[The gas tax holiday] idea is, as an educated friend of mine who very much wants to support Clinton told me as we waited for Clinton to arrive, an insult to her intelligence. But then, there was Clinton, insulting the intelligence of her audience every chance she got. The only common theme to emerge from the 30-minute ramble was an attack on our enemies. China is the enemy for selling us lead-contaminated toys and poison pet food. The Saudis are the enemy for exploiting our addition to oil. The rest of OPEC, too. And worst of all are those evil, parasitic "middlemen" who pop up in every corner of the economy, ready to take a cut and give back nothing.

Only ordinary Americans, and, because this Clinton campaign stop was in a rural corner of the state, only small-town Americans, can be trusted to do what's right. It's sad, really. Not only is everyone else the enemy, but intelligence itself is suspect. What we need, she seemed to be saying between the lines, is someone at the top who's just a simple yokel. More of the last eight years, in other words."
http://scienceblogs.com/islandofdoubt/2008/05/clinton_and_the_politics_of_fe.php

Jayack: I plead some ignorance about economics. But it's not as if there is consensus among economists about what to do at any given time, and am I not right that there are usually economists to support one ideological point of view or another? In fact, I think this is unusual to have such unanimity.

Pat: I'm among the well-educated poor. Does that make me half-elitist? I'm trying to put gas in my 20yr old car. But oops, it's a 1988 Volvo, so I guess I must be an elitist. Bought it in 1992 for 8 thousand.

"Tell me what can be done to give relief to someone who needs to fill a tank, travel 35 miles to and 35 miles back from work in a diner - pay? - and feed two kids. "

For starters - stop paying $50/mo in cable bill, $50/mo for internet, $50/mo cell phone, $15/mo for netflix, take a bus or train/tram to work or even carpool.

JpJ - why - so we can have enough money to pay Dave Letterman and Paul Allen farming subsidies?

KathyR-

Your observation about economists is accurate. So, what we can go on is their respective track-records. Have we heard from any of the economists of 2001 and 2002 who said the economy would be wonderful by 2008 if only we could get those Bush tax cuts through Congress? Where are they now? And why won't Big Media find them and hold them accountable?

Pat: I'm among the well-educated poor. Does that make me half-elitist?

No. In this campaign and in this context, the simple act of being intelligent and articulate makes you an elitist. In much the same way that being on the receiving end of a US rocket makes you a terrorist.

If it were about wealth, then Hillary would be ashamed to use the word.

Elitist=Smart

Get used to it. It's going to be a loooong summer.

TeresaKopec Last time I looked Obama was a senator too. What is he doing in Congress right now to provide short term relief?

This is not a short-term problem, Teresa. Clinton's plan is less than a band-aid; it's kissing a boo-boo to make someone feel better.

I'll tell you what Obama is not doing: He's not promoting a widely-panned, economically unsound, unlikely-to-be-implemented 'gas tax vacation' that has a strong chance of not reducing the price you pay for gas one whit or bettering your personal bottom line.

When you are a millionaire like Obama..

Or a multi-millionaire like Clinton.

Believe it or not, $25 is a lot of money to some families.

"Only in Washington can you get away with calling someone out of touch when you're the one who thinks that 30 cents a day is enough to help people who are struggling in this economy.."

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day...

Jayack - so you know, my comment in the last thread :"It's hard to see how Hillary's craven and blatant class warfare is going to endear her to any superdelegates. Pah! who needs economists? As the campaign goes on it gets harder and harder for me to ever envision supporting her." was meant to be suggesting that she is the one saying "pah! who needs economists." I think this is a fairly insane position for a presidential candidate to take.

JpJ -- "For starters - stop paying $50/mo in cable bill, $50/mo for internet, $50/mo cell phone, $15/mo for netflix, take a bus or train/tram to work or even carpool."

You're making assumptions. There are actually cell phone plans that cost less than that (I can get one for less than $30) and lots of people have them so they don't have to have a land line. Do you want people to be without means to call a doctor or for their children's school to be able to reach them in an emergency, for example?

And, lots of people don't pay for the internet because they don't have a computer -- you might check out how many people count on their public library for internet access. There are jobs in the suburbs that you can't get to via public transportation. And netflix?? Again, an assumption.

Even the $50 for cable -- haven't you read all the promotions to explain to people how to deal with getting a box for their tv set when the all digital signals take over? That doesn't apply to anyone who has cable.

KathyR: I followed pat and others when you went off to work. and he followed you, I think ( to his work, that is).

I did not get the impression that he found elitism to be a problem; he is one from what he wrote.

My take is that elitism is a red herring. Obama argues that the tax break did not work; he has decided not to take that road again. Great. Joe and Ford are two former politicians. What they are telling me is that "ordinary" people buy Clinton's line ( and Joe and Ford have set out their lines in their time in politics). Mika, by insisting on being logical is reflecting the views of someone who has never had to worry about finding the cash to fill her gas tank ( father ZB was, no doubt, a good provider).

What Joe, Ford and Clinton are telling me is that the "ordinary" people will take short term cash because they have no choice. Which is why politicians are so good at pandering. By the time the voting is over none of these guys/gal can be called to account.

We try to have a serious discussion on what is doable so that it endures. These people want to what is doable to get them through the next two votes tomorrow. Obama is not playing that game, hence the charge about his elitism.

smedley: You must be one of those "destiny voters" who support Hillary because she is going to be the last woman to have a serious shot at the Presidency in their lifetimes. If so, would you seriously consider voting for McCain if Obama is the Dem nominee?

--------------------

Heck no! I still have my Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker on my car!

I initially supported Obama and gave money to his campaign. I ended up voting for Hillary in SC because my daughter (who is 5) said something to me on election day about how women could not be president. My husband was going to vote for Hillary so I got him to swap votes with me so that my daughter could see me vote for a woman while my husband voted for Obama. Call it a "destiny" vote, but it was no more than African Americans voting overwhelmingly for Obama because they want their children to see an African American be president.

Admittedly even before the SC primary I was really upset with the way in which the media has treated the Clinton campaign unfairly. Even my dad who is a Fox news lovin' republican says he can not believe the way that she gets attacked in the media. As a woman and the mother of a daughter that bothers me.

However, I have become increasingly concerned in the last few months that Obama may not be the strongest candidate. For various reasons, he has failed to connect to working class voters. Democrats do not have to win this bloc of voters, but they need to come close. I think we need to win Ohio and Pennsylvania in the fall in order to win.

I will happily vote for either Democrat who is on the ballot in the fall. The problem is not winning my vote, it is winning undecided voters.

BTW, I really hate it when Democrats attack Hillary and talk about her in the way the GOP does. If you read conservative blogs and columns, you can see that they are already trying to turn Michelle Obama into the next Hillary. Talking about how she is "angry" and "ambitious" and "elitist" and a "ball breaker." I remember how they painted Hillary that way during the 1992 campaign and their attempts to do the same thing to Kerry's wife. I think feeding into this whole attempt to punish succesful women is awful and I wish fellow Dems would not take up the cudgel.

Whatever happened to wanting the "best and brightest"? Screw anti-elitism.

I see these rednecks out in certain areas of New York and they can barely pull up their damned pants. I want those idiots - the same people who have more kids than they know what to do with, can't care for, and don't care about; the same people who can't manage to stay out of trouble on the weekends and populate the drunk tanks of local jails all across the country - to have as little to do with directing this country as possible. Let 'em vote - absolutely - but pander to them? Hell no. They'd have us all sit around and watch NASCAR and WWE all day.

Thomas Jefferson said that the best way to ensure a strong country was to educate its people. As such, the current anti-intelligence rhetoric is despicable and un-American. Shall those of us with college educations be shamed into getting lobotomies to put us on par with the rest?

You know, I always toyed with "playing the game", but what Hillary has shown me is I just don't have the stomach for it. Once you start dissing reason like Ben Stein and showing up on FOX, what's the point any more?

One of my biggest issues has always been the politicization and distortion of science, of which this administration is by far the worst offender. We don't need to play that game.

But it's not as if there is consensus among economists about what to do at any given time, and am I not right that there are usually economists to support one ideological point of view or another?

Economists generally agree on most public policy issues. You'll be hard put to find any of them who thinks this tax holiday is a good idea.

Where disagreement arises is in the areas where economics breaks down, and when economists permit themselves to be used by politicians.

The areas where economics breaks down is in questions like guns vs butter, efficiency vs equity. Economists who support republicans opt for guns and efficiency, while those who support democrats like butter and equity.

There is no, in the jargon, positive argument for a given level of income redistribution.

But on a micro economic question of whether a product with a very inelastic supply curve, will removing a tax lower the price to the consumer, you're gonna get unanimity.

TPM put together a nearly perfect selection of clips on the gas tax holiday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeYySoQEpo

Any questions?

As Jon Stewart said after Obama's speech on race, "he's talking to us like adults."

grape_crush : You gave me a whole list of things that Hillary should be doing instead of a gas tax holiday because she is in the senate. When I ask you why is Obama not doing the things you suggest, you brush it off.

Even if you don't agree with a tax break, why does he get a pass?

BTW, you can say 30cents a day, but it is very easy to come up with things for working people to do with an extra $25 a month.

My guess is that you don't actually know any poor people. I'll give you an example, my daughter goes to an elementary school with a high percentage of kids who get free lunch. This weekend was her birthday and we invited her class to the party. Several children who showed up did not bring a present, while others pressed a wrinkled $5 bill in my hand for her. I could tell that was a real sacrifice for them and it was very sweet.

I doubt that an extra $25 a month sounds like nothing to them.

Yeah, why would we want to listen to the opinions of economists when discussing the economy?

And she says a President needs to use their tools to get a tax holiday done? She won't be Prez this summer, so now she's talking about a tax holiday next year?

The bottom line fact remains, the Dem Party has gained nothing by her continued candidacy. And now as she morphs into a Republican, it will gain even less. There is no compelling reason for her candidacy.

TeresaK: I take your point about what can happen to Mrs Obama (a la Hillary and Teresa.)

Memekiller: Obama went on Fox, as did Dean and Hillary. They were drawn in; no one forced them. It is politics and both Hillary and Obama have had to play on Fox.

"Gas Tax Holiday" versus "Give another economic stimulus check". Which one is better??

Yes the people of this country are feeling a bite to their wallets. Gone are the days of joy riding around in your SUV for the heck of it. Gone are the days when you didn't give it a second thought about jumping right back in your car to go back to the store you just left because you forgot the loaf of bread.

Our wasteful days are over, and we need to get over it as well and move forward. The only way the price of gas / oil will come down is when supply exceeds demand. Simple economics.

All three candidates are pandering to voters with their "fresh ideas" to temporarily fix what everyone seems to think is a problem. It is not a problem, its now a fact of life.

If you can't afford to drive to work, get basic cable instead of all the premium channels. If you can't afford to drive to work, sell the gas guzzler and buy a hybrid. If you can't drive to work, here's an ingenious idea, how about CAR POOLING, RIDE the BUS, and plan your trips in advance to make the most out of every drop of gas.

BTW, I really hate it when Democrats attack Hillary and talk about her in the way the GOP does.

Yes, this is awful. On your electability concerns, I think the weakness of McCain's candidacy trump them. Everything is going against him, and that towering presence on the press bus is an incoherent dwarf on the campaign trail.

On Ford's campaign, we will have to disagree. Webb and Tester won using very different tactics, Tester in a state redder than Tennessee.

KathyR | May 5, 20008 wrote:
(Have to go work. will check in later)

Is that "work" as in "sweat"?
How vulgar!
How rural!
Your "work"? Do you remember the story about (your work,) your laptop and the dog? Yep, that one.

jayackroyd : On Ford's campaign, we will have to disagree. Webb and Tester won using very different tactics, Tester in a state redder than Tennessee.

------------------------

Webb and Tester are both white. Like it or not, Ford had the "problem" of running as a black man in the south for state wide office. I don't think you can compare him with Webb & Tester.

Correction: Make that "Karen Tumulty's work, the laptop and the dog."

My guess is that you don't actually know any poor people.

Funny how the "just folks" side of this discussion almost always sounds more condescending than the "elitist" side.

Teresa, some of us have been poor. Some of us are still barely above that level. And let me tell you, any politician proposing to do something that might save me $25, but probably won't, while siphoning tens of millions more dollars to the oil companies, isn't getting my vote or my support.

I ended up voting for Hillary in SC because my daughter (who is 5) said something to me on election day about how women could not be president. My husband was going to vote for Hillary so I got him to swap votes with me so that my daughter could see me vote for a woman while my husband voted for Obama.

I'd forgotten that was you, TK. Karen highlighted that comment at the time. It's a really great story.

Mr. Nice Guy,
BRAVO! i too am disgusted with the dumbing down of this country. we have been passed by many euro and asian nations in research and development in the last decade and it saddens me. what made this country great was not its ability to put the masses to work, it was the ability of this country to put the masses to work producing goods designed by the best research and development minds in the world. enough of the pandering to nascar dads and soccer moms. beer and a shot losers in the middle of the afternoon in a local pub. HRC has said this election is too important to waste, perhaps she should quit wasting it getting wasted with the locals and start offering solutions that are more than 70 bucks less at the gas pump over 3 months. i get so pissed about this i want to walk up to the nearest "my son beat up your honor student" bumper sticker sporting person and "obliterate" them...

BTW, I really hate it when Democrats attack Hillary and talk about her in the way the GOP does.

Perhaps Hillary should stop acting like a rethug then.

Just a thought.

BitterPill: My take is that elitism is a red herring. Obama argues that the tax break did not work; he has decided not to take that road again. Great. Joe and Ford are two former politicians. What they are telling me is that "ordinary" people buy Clinton's line ( and Joe and Ford have set out their lines in their time in politics). Mika, by insisting on being logical is reflecting the views of someone who has never had to worry about finding the cash to fill her gas tank ( father ZB was, no doubt, a good provider).

What Joe, Ford and Clinton are telling me is that the "ordinary" people will take short term cash because they have no choice. Which is why politicians are so good at pandering. By the time the voting is over none of these guys/gal can be called to account.

We try to have a serious discussion on what is doable so that it endures. These people want to what is doable to get them through the next two votes tomorrow. Obama is not playing that game, hence the charge about his elitism.
------------------------

Maybe I'm cynical too. But I have to point out that we have had these kind of gas tax breaks before and the world didn't come crashing to an end.

the world didn't come crashing to an end.

No, but the money did end up in undeserving hands (the distributors)

Again, I find the particualrs of the gas tax issue to be unimportant compared to the fact that by using 'elite' as an epithet we are elevating ignorance as a virtue and the resulting rise of mediocrity affects EVERY issue we debate, not just pump-prices but war, peace, diplomacy and science education.

And every time a fake controversy gets injected into the debate, be it "bitter and clinging" or "The $400 haircut", the people in the media who are smart enough to know better, do their best to make sure that the American appetite for sugar encrusted horse dung is fully satisfied.

TeresaKopec: When I ask you why is Obama not doing the things you suggest, you brush it off.

Wrong, Teresa. You asked:

What is [Obama] doing in Congress right now to provide short term relief?

And I provided an answer having to do with the fact that this is not a short-term problem with a solution that could be solved with a Band-Aid.

Even if you don't agree with a tax break, why does he get a pass?

Because Obama's not the one making the dumb, pander-riffic policy proposal, Teresa. When Obama propses something incredibly sort-sighted and mostly useless like Clinton has, I'll be happy to harp on him.

BTW, you can say 30cents a day, but it is very easy to come up with things for working people to do with an extra $25 a month.

Like buy more gas...which decreases its availability, which raises the price, which - instead of going towards job-creating work like infrastructure repair - funnels into Big Oil's pockets.

And check for yourself to see if I'm wrong, Teresa: .30 cents * 30 days = $9/month, right That's about $30 for the entire summer, or about a half a tank of gas at current prices, not each month.

My guess is that you don't actually know any poor people.

While my guess is that you don't know what the hell you are talking about, Teresa, but you choose to blather on anyway.

I'll give you an example, my daughter goes to an elementary school..

Here's mine: my daughter just had her fourth surgery, and, thankfully, I only had to come up with two grand out of pocket this time. When she had the first surgery, this middle-aged single parent had been out of a job for three months, but again, luckily, I was able to borrow enough money from my retiree parents to keep the house payments going while I started my new job and earned enough cash to pay for my share of the surgery.

So, next time you even think you know what other people's experiences are, Teresa, do the right thing and move away from the keyboard.

Teresa: Noted. I think the supply and demand especially in China and India has changed the equation here. Over 80% of production is not controlled by the American and European majors like EXXON and Shell. So, if the price is dropped here the oil will go where it can command a price.

The tax break becomes effective when there is abundant supply and a reduction in taxes does not diminish supply. In some provinces in Canada, for example, the regulator sets a price every fortnight. The companies comply. No choice. Canada is a net oil producer. In Alberta, a major exporter of gas to the US, there is such a low tax rate that gas there is the cheapest in Canada. So EXXON can't wag its finger. But the taxes vary. Canada has no serious problem except when a refinery is closed down for repairs or some such work.But Canada was never a place for cheap gas. It has always been more costly there than here.

If you look at Europe the tax in the UK was so high that a price of $4 a gallon was reached 10 years ago. This in a country that gets all its oil from its own fields in the North Sea. The UK government has used the gas tax as a major source of revenue.

With respect, I think Americans have had a pretty good deal on gas prices for a long time.

None of this detracts from the problems of the poor.

"When you are a millionaire like Obama -- who has already alienated some voters with his "bitter" remarks, I don't think it sounds great to say, "You'll only save $25." Believe it or not, $25 is a lot of money to some families."

That their nales it on the hed, Obama is a millonair not like Hillery who is down home folk just like me. Wen is the last time Osama filed up his tank? Us reguler folk needs that 30 dollers and if he wasn't some high and mightey liberul who was to good have a shot and a beer w/ the reguler folks. Those econonomist, ecomonist, ececommi....those money folk just think there so smart anyways they ain't no beter than me I tell you wat. Go Hillery!

KT here--

Grape: I'm so sorry. I hope your daughter is feeling better, and am glad your job/financial situation looks like it is on its way to better as well.

grape_crush : I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's medical problems. Mine just had her tonsils out and even with our "good" insurance it is costing us $1500 out of pocket. I can't imagine if she had to have 4 surgeries.

But, YOU were the one to give me a whole list of things Hillary should be doing rather than the tax break. All I asked was why Obama wasn't doing those things if they were such good ideas.

Obama is the one using the $25 figure so I am going to continue using that instead of 30cents a day.

@TK - "What Joe, Ford and Clinton are telling me is that the "ordinary" people will take short term cash because they have no choice. Which is why politicians are so good at pandering. By the time the voting is over none of these guys/gal can be called to account."

You are exactly right on this. I saw a telling Clinton moment on American Morning (CNN) this morning and John Roberts pointed out she wasn't going to be President this summer and would she promise to do the same thing next year if elected. She said she was sure going to try . . .

Oh, and I think she promised us a magic pony, too, but I was busy eating my slice of toast.

Cincinnatus : Obama is a millonair not like Hillery who is down home folk just like me. Wen is the last time Osama filed up his tank? Us reguler folk needs that 30 dollers and if he wasn't some high and mightey liberul who was to good have a shot and a beer w/ the reguler folks. Those econonomist, ecomonist, ececommi....those money folk just think there so smart anyways they ain't no beter than me I tell you wat. Go Hillery!
--------------------------

Gee Cinniatus, I just can't understand why working class folks might think that some Dems look down on them.

Hillary and Obama are both millionaires last time I looked. Just because you are a millionaire doesn't mean that you can't have empathy with the working class. And I hate this whole argument that Bill & Hillary are some how "more elite" than Obama.

Bill & Hillary moved into the White House making about $250K a year. Which is lot of money, but nowhere near what the Obamas are making. They have done well since leaving the White House, but Bill grew up with a single mom who worked as a nurse. Hardly a child of privlege.

Osama is useng the 25 doller figure but i reckons its more then that. He is just tryen to screw the working folk like them libruls alway does they think there so smart and beter then reguler folk. Hillery has always been a good Republican and that meins that she has good famely valus and likes to hunt and ain't gonna tell me I come frum some munkey instead of Adams rib. Hillery is aganst the libruls who wants to burn the American flag I am agenst that I don't want some holliwood eleet librul teling me something agenst God. Go Hillery!

some how "more elite" than Obama

OK now this is getting tiresome.

Elite doesn't mean anything. If you use the word it means you've bought into the frame that being stupid is cool and you've accepted a lie.

There are indeed people in the world who pay big money to not have to encounter poor people in their daily lives but if you are a politician on the campaign trail, then you are not one of those people.

Reporters and Columninsts who go on and on about what 'common people' are thinking on the other hand.......

no yur write Theresa kEOPEC, the Clintons are down home folk like me not like Osama. If Rush is on the side of Hillery than I am on there side to. The Clintons arnt eleets like Osama, thats is why is suport them.

BitterPill: With respect, I think Americans have had a pretty good deal on gas prices for a long time.
-------------------

I totally agree with you on that and think that we need tax breaks for hybrids, way higher CAFE standards, new biofeuls, etc... to wean us on our dependence on oil -- foriegn or domestic.

The problem NOW is that politicians have been caving into Big Oil and Detroit for years and the working class is gettting squeezed with high feul costs, rising food prices and crazy medical bills.

From a policy point of view Obama may be right. But I think that might be cold comfort if he loses Indiana because of this issue. Sometimes a little pandering works. And it allows you to get into office and do the bigger things that need to be done.

But I guess that is just "politics as usual" not the "brave, new politics" Obama is promising us.... Hope he actually gets into the White House to institute the new politics and isn't home writing books like Al Gore on how to save the world...

'From a policy point of view Obama may be right. "

Yer speling his name wrong its speled Osama and hees not write abowt nothing ecept that he hates America and is probly a secrit terrist. I dont no what pander is but it must be good becuse if Hillery dos it it is good.

TKopec:
While $25 isn't an amount of money to sneer at, neither is it earth-shattering. It'll get you some groceries or half a tank of gas.

In other words, it's a carrot, a tiny little reward dangled in front of anyone who can't see their own noses. To me, the idea that 25 bucks should have a significant impact on my vote is far more insulting than anything Obama has said, because it implies that the average voter is incapable of forgoing a little bit of pocket change for the common good.

Yeah, I could use $25. I think most people on this board could. But we're also all smart enough to realize that the $25 is sketchy at best, not that much, and it would come at the cost of (a) our infrastructure or (b) more debt for our kids to pay off.

Cincinnatus-

Pander are a kinda bear, I thinkd.

I never pander bare...

I always wear clothes.

see I just noed Hillery is a rel hunter. Bet Osama never hunted no panderer like Hillery if Hillery can stand up to fite panders she can fite the eleet libruls like Barbra Streesund or Gorge Cloney....oooohhhhh I hat Gorge Cloney soooo much it makes my britches bern he think hes soooooo smart he aint no beter n me I tell you wat.

Cliff: To me, the idea that 25 bucks should have a significant impact on my vote is far more insulting than anything Obama has said, because it implies that the average voter is incapable of forgoing a little bit of pocket change for the common good.
--------------------

I guess what I'm saying is that while I don't know if it is a great idea, it seems to me that Hillary is getting too much heat for it being a bad idea. Gas tax breaks have happened before (Heck, Obama voted for two of them when gas was UNDER $2 a gallon) and the world didn't come to an end.

This just seems like another excuse to beat Hillary over the head with and act as if she is causing the decline of western civilization single handly.

C'mon. The government just spent how much bailing out Bear Stearns? It is sending me how much in a tax rebate this week? It is wasting how much over in Iraq on that big embassy?

I don't see how giving people a small break on gas is the end of the world.
Sorry.

Cincinnatus -- You might want to take your meds today. Really. Those voices you are hearing aren't really there...

"This just seems like another excuse to beat Hillary over the head with and act as if she is causing the decline of western civilization single handly."

You naled it on the hed agin. Hillery wuldnt beat Osama over the hed over nothing like they dos to Hillery but the eleet libruls hat her becuase she is on the side of reguler folk and fites the eleets becuase thems the ones that hates America and the real folks.

i reckon the only meds folks needs is the Bible. those meds is made by them thats think there so smart like docktors and layers n such.

I guess what I'm saying is that while I don't know if it is a great idea, it seems to me that Hillary is getting too much heat for it being a bad idea

Let us not forget that it was originally John McCain's idea. Hillary jumped on the bandwagon after the fact leaving Obama to again have to explain slowly and carefully WHY its a bad idea.

When it turned out that a bunch of educated people agreed that it was a bad idea, she decided to throw the concept of expertise itself under the bus:

"I'm not going to put my lot in with economists," Clinton said when asked to name an economist who backed her proposal.

"We've got to get out of this mind-set where somehow elite opinion is always on the side of doing things that really disadvantage the vast majority of Americans,"

In an environment where Science education is under relentless attack and Cable outlets spend multiple hours trying to outgossip the National Enquirer, to say such a thing is to totally and instantly lose any claim to my respect.

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/05052008/325/hillary-clinton-dismisses-elite-economists-gas-tax-plan.html

I've been irritated by the guy who has been spamming the threads with a story about Clinton's hawkishness, and commitment to an indefinite of Ir aq occupation, based on something she said in 2005.

I think Obama had the same position at the time, though he's not on record saying so, and that this is a widely held view in the Democratic circles in DC, even today.

And it is perfectly reasonable that the combination of voter pressure and an assessment of the situation has led her to change her mind. So this seemed like a non-issue to me.

However, Markos points out that there is a problem, and that is McCain will say that Clinton believes exactly what I do, making it harder to hang the war around his and other republican necks.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/5/143339/5685/3/509508

Paul Dirks : Let us not forget that it was originally John McCain's idea. Hillary jumped on the bandwagon after the fact leaving Obama to again have to explain slowly and carefully WHY its a bad idea.
--------------------------------

Once again, it is not Hillary's job to make Obama's job easier. Poor, poor Obama having to actually defend his positions. C'mon.

Paul Dirks: In an environment where Science education is under relentless attack and Cable outlets spend multiple hours trying to outgossip the National Enquirer, to say such a thing is to totally and instantly lose any claim to my respect.
---------------------------

1) Economics ain't science. Sorry. There is zero predictability in economics and economic theory is untestable for the most part. Any "real" hard scientist would fall out of their seat laughing at the idea of economics being a "science."

2) Hillary said, ""We've got to get out of this mind-set where somehow elite opinion is always on the side of doing things that really disadvantage the vast majority of Americans." I kind of thought that encompassed more than economists. Things like the news media and pundits -- for instance. Something that I thought most Obama supporters agreed with last week when the pundits were flogging Rev. Wright to death.

TK: "Economics ain't science."

No it's not. It's a "soft science" and the economy is hard to predict. But this doesn't mean that economists are witch doctors by any means. It's possible to study the economy in order to make (well) educated guesses about the impacts that different policies will have.

There are lots of people who tell us not to trust "experts", and "scientists", and "elitists." They're called conservatives, and George Bush is Exhibit A.

BrendanB: There are lots of people who tell us not to trust "experts", and "scientists", and "elitists." They're called conservatives, and George Bush is Exhibit A.
----------------------------------

Please. If anyone thinks that a Clinton White House would be unfriendly to science, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

There are a lot of people in the liberal blogosphere who rail against the "elite" in the media who help form public opinion. Are they George Bush too?

There is zero predictability in economics and economic theory is untestable for the most part.

So of course meteorology and anthropology also qualify as "not real" sciences? Who's being elitist?

Read this:
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/davidcorn/2008/05/clinton-campaign-disses-millio.html

I spoke of science education because it is a specific example of where ignorance is held as a virtue. The fact that physics and geology might have better empirical grounding than the 'soft' sciences does not change the fact that there are strong forces in this country actively fighting the notion that Science itself has any grounding. Neodarwinism vs ID is only the most visible battlefront but any and all references to latte-drinking, Prius- driving and Birkenstock-wearing is an unsubtle dig at intelligence. Hillary is playing the same game that drives Pat Roberson and Jerry Falwell, just not as artfully or effectively.

No, no, no! What ya'll don't get is that I didn't have it that rough, and for all the crappy things that were happening to me at that time, I still had an education, work skills, a car, and a place to live. Even then, as close as it seemed, it could have been so much worse. I still feel like I was incredibly lucky...

...And things have greatly improved over the past couple of years; good job, healthy kid-now-kids, with their own issues, having remarried in December. But yeah, it was rough a couple of years back. Thanks for the good thoughts, 'tho; they're always appreciated.

Point is that - except for a few - most folks are only a few bad months away from catastrophe...And most folks, if they are haven't been there themselves, know someone who is or can feel how close to that edge they really are. In most cases, a charge of 'elitism' is unfounded, even when used against those people who appear to be doing well at the moment.

Anyway - back to the fray:

TeresaKopec: YOU were the one to give me a whole list of things Hillary should be doing rather than the tax break.

Yes.

All I asked was why Obama wasn't doing those things if they were such good ideas.

No you didn't, Teresa, at least until later when you wanted to change the direction of this discussion...But to answer your new question:

I don't know. Go ask him yourself.

I am going to continue using that instead of 30 cents a day.

A) Thirty cents is a direct quote; I even linked to it. B) $28 dollars over the course of three months is not the same as $25 a month. It's a small point, but illustrative of how you've let your enthusiasm for Clinton override your good sense.

Teresa-

Here is the problem, and I think you know it: What do you suppose Hillary and the Republicans would do if Obama uttered something frightful, such as, he has some faint awareness of some minute understanding of some tenet of Islam? Or quantum physics? Or Swahili? Etc. We have gotten to the point where our leaders must pretend to be, not just regular folk, but downright anti-intellectual. We are entering a sci-fi dystopia.

TeresaKopec: "Please. If anyone thinks that a Clinton White House would be unfriendly to science..."

So economists are beneath her now, but she'll rely on them once she's in the White House? Or she'll trust hard scientists but continue to be "unfriendly" to economists?

If that's the case, how will she make economic policy? Magic 8 Ball?

grape_crush, I'm glad things are better with your family.

Clinton is using solid populist logic to support a bad proposal. And the reason she seems to be getting away with it is that Obama is using bad DLC logic to support no proposal. First, of course she's right about the economists. There is nothing inherently wrong in consulting economists on all issues - it seems like a really good idea - but the only "credible" economists are the ones who basically buy into the neoliberal economic model. This whole "trust the experts" logic has been used to force Third World countries into adopting bad IMF and World Bank economic policies.

Right now the discipline of economics has major problems; This isn't like consulting biological scientists. Even at its best economics is still a soft science. But right now it's dangerously close to not being any kind of science.

"Hillary is playing the same game that drives Pat Roberson and Jerry Falwell, just not as artfully or effectively." - Paul Dirks, ignoring the problems of the current discipline of economics, and unquestioningly following the advice of so-called credible economists, is not thinking critically or scientifically. Let's not start treating economists the same way Robertson and Falwell treat the voices in their heads. And her plan isn't the same as McCain's. It's inefficient, but it is financially workable.

Second, the idea that there is no risk of further damage to the economy with these high gas prices is ridiculous. If Bear Sterns posed a threat to the wider economy, how is it possible that millions of people being forced to curtail spending and possibly go further into debt just to pay gas prices does not pose a threat to the wider economy? And the people who are really going to feel the financial benefits of a gas tax will still be struggling to pay for gas, so the increased demand argument is a little weak. And if the amount of money is so small that it's effectively meaningless, it won't effect demand.

But it is a bad idea. Most of the money from a gas tax cut would probably end up going to oil companies, so it is very inefficient. Obama is being vague - again - on what should be done, and while he is sometimes making good arguments against the gas tax cut, he is not really addressing her larger argument about taxing oil companies to directly help people. Right now, she is sounding a lot more left-wing than he is, and he's sounding very DLC. And yes, her proposal is not that left-wing either, but he still needs to address her arguments and rhetoric. Just like she had to address the dumb criticisms he made of her health care plan. That's politics.

Sorry if this was already posted this. Bloomberg reports 200 or so mostly economists with ties to both parties rejecting the gas tax holiday. Worth a read.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aTzCmqCNyLho&refer=home

grape_crush : ...illustrative of how you've let your enthusiasm for Clinton override your good sense.
-----------------

I have enthusiasm for Democrats winning in November, but your hatred of Hillary overrides your good sense in being able to see that.

-------------------------------

smedley: What do you suppose Hillary and the Republicans would do if Obama uttered something frightful, such as, he has some faint awareness of some minute understanding of some tenet of Islam? Or quantum physics? Or Swahili? Etc. We have gotten to the point where our leaders must pretend to be, not just regular folk, but downright anti-intellectual. We are entering a sci-fi dystopia.
----------------------

Of course not. But how many people on this blog have criticized Hillary for having "Crown Royal" because that isn't a "real" bourbon (or whiskey, or whatever)... Or how many have criticized her and Bill for making money in the last eight years... Or jumped all over Karen, Joe and Jay for being part of the "media elite"?

The point is that "elite" is used in many different ways -- including many that are considered rightfully bad by liberals.

Paul Dirks: So of course meteorology and anthropology also qualify as "not real" sciences? Who's being elitist?

--------------

Since I have a master's degree in anthropology, I'll be the first to say cultural anthropology isn't a "real science." (Some aspects of archeology and physical anthropology would be.) My husband is a Ph.D. and college professor in Sociology and will gladly submit that it is also not a "hard" science. Wow, does that make us elitist?

The word "science" actually means something and should not be used to cover anything under the sun -- esp. a squishy field like economics. Otherwise, people like Milton Friedman and Paul Krugman would be buddies forever instead of diametrically opposed.

Please. If anyone thinks that a Clinton White House would be unfriendly to science, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Teresa, she's running a campaign that attacks the very idea that education and expertise are valuable and worthwhile things. This is straight out of the Republican playbook, and it ultimately makes a mess of our public discourse. It doesn't matter what her White House would be like, it matters that she's telling people that smart people are bad and out to get them. This is the kind of thinking that brought us a wanna-be cowboy president because he seems like a good guy to have a beer with.

Obama is being vague - again - on what should be done, and while he is sometimes making good arguments against the gas tax cut, he is not really addressing her larger argument about taxing oil companies to directly help people.

Rose, I've heard him at least twice call for the same windfall profits tax she's calling for, and he'd do it without turning around and handing the oil companies tens of millions with a gas tax holiday that's a "holiday" only for the oil companies.

BrendanB: So economists are beneath her now, but she'll rely on them once she's in the White House? Or she'll trust hard scientists but continue to be "unfriendly" to economists?

If that's the case, how will she make economic policy? Magic 8 Ball?

----------------

You can set general economic policies, but if economists could actually predict economic behavior why would we be in a recession now? Surely Bush would want a good economy in order to save his poll ratings. Presidents have very little real controll over the economy and can only attempt to fiddle with it on the margins.

FastEddie :Teresa, she's running a campaign that attacks the very idea that education and expertise are valuable and worthwhile things.
---------------

No, she made one point saying that she thought the gas tax break was a good idea even though some economists don't. Please point to any other example of her saying expertise or higher learing isn't a good thing. Just one.

This is an example of conflating one normal, political statement as somehow an insight into the dark, evil morass of her soul. Give me a break.

And, if we are all saying being experts is a great thing, then surely that leads to saying General Petraeus should be the only one who gets to set our Iraq policy because he has the greatest expertise in this area. So if Petreaus wants us to stay in Iraq, should Obama ignore this "expert" opinion?

TK-

This thread is about the dumbing down of our public discourse by Clinton, Republicans and Big Media. But, nice dodge.

Since I have a master's degree in anthropology, I'll be the first to say cultural anthropology isn't a "real science."

Then you would be sympathetic to the plight of my sister who had the job of teaching a college level intro Antropology course in Georgia and had to patiently explain why it was inappropriate to refer to someone as an "evolutionist"

My problem has nothing to do with the Gas-Tax and everything to do with the ammunition being provided to an anti-intellectual movement.

A lot more hangs in the balance than just the price of fuel.

ignoring the problems of the current discipline of economics, and unquestioningly following the advice of so-called credible economists, is not thinking critically or scientifically

Who is advocating that? what politician has ever done that?

A very narrow point is being made here, one that has been made very clearly--that the price of gasoline in the summer is determined by the amount of gasoline that can be refined during that period or stockpiled. The supply curve is essentially vertical. Cutting the tax will not reduce the price. Rebating the tax wouldn't reduce (or raise) the price either. But it would give the people their 28 precious dollars. If she were serious about this, that's what she would propose.

But that would focus the attention on the ridiculously small sum of money that is involved. Now, rather than defend the policy position itself, she feigns ignorance of the argument and disses "economists" using republican elitist frames that will be used against her. That's what Dirks is talking about--that she is not merely promoting a Republican frame that is focused on Obama's weakest supporters, but she is actually test marketing it.

TeresaKopec: "You can set general economic policies, but if economists could actually predict economic behavior why would we be in a recession now?"

Because of consumers. Economists saw the current problem coming for years. They predicted the internet bubble too, but people don't listen to them. Let me repeat that: Economists often warn us of our folly, BUT WE DON'T LISTEN TO THEM.

Who's not listening these days?

TeresaKopec From a policy point of view Obama may be right.

So, what's your beef?

But I think that might be cold comfort if he loses Indiana because of this issue.

Thanks for the concern trolling, Teresa.

Poor, poor Obama having to actually defend his positions.

Poor, poor Hillary, so desperate to win that she'll push any idea - no matter how bad it is for the country or her party - in order to be able to say that she has a chance at winning the nomination.

Heck, Obama voted for two of them when gas was UNDER $2 a gallon

Yep, and gas prices rose to mostly negate the lack of applicable taxes. Hence Obama's non-support for the 'gas tax holiday'.

..just seems like another excuse to beat Hillary over the head with..

I'm sure that Clinton has the testicular fortitude to take the criticism.

The government just spent how much bailing out Bear Stearns?

Let's see; $25 bucks in my pocket versus th