Sidney, Sidney, Oh Sidney

= SEDITION ACCOMPLISHED =

Anything to win. That has always been the motto of these people.

If you agree with that, then Clinton is your candidate. Nothing surprises me after she sat down with Richard Mellon Scaife.

Anything to win.

Looks like a simple case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" to me.

Doesn't reflect particularly well on the Clintons' campaign strategy, but honestly, nothing really has since they decided that if the only way to get elected was to trounce the voters'/caucusers' choice, they were all for it.

I wish that examples of political expediency triumphing weren't so common, but they are common enough that I'm really not even remotely surprised by this.

Also, hasn't this been going on for awhile now? I mean the Clintons cozying up to their former attackers in an attempt to slime Obama.

Obama being swiftboated by the Friends of Clintons. Lovely. And folks wonder why the netroots have had it with the GOP, DNC, and MSM.

Well, the Clinton campaign is committed to the kitchen sink strategy. Clinton already broke break with Scaife. So, not much surprise here.

Still, this is very small potatoes compared to McCain's dedication to ignorance and reversing course on whether Iraq is or is not Korea, and whether we should stay there for a hundred or a million years. (To say nothing of his poorly sketched out, reality-averse health care "plan," or his position on the gas tax, or his dedication to flip-floppery on the Bush tax cuts, etc.

It sure would be nice if all of that became all the rage in journo worlds someday, instead of the obnoxious tactics of the Clinton campaign, or the haircuts and pastors of other Democratic candidates. Because it actually affects something.

(Not to criticize you, Joe, you've been doing lots of great substantive stuff here. It's just frustrating that this gossip is what sets the agenda-setters all atwitter.)

I think Hillary would make a great VP for John McCain!! Imagine that one. Just kidding.

All the "dirt" Obama has been brushing off his shoulders lately will be major talking points this fall. Hillary is just doing her part to help the cause.

Rev Wright / Obama '08, WRONG for America!!!!!!!!!!

Rusty, good to see you buddy! You appear at almost the same time every day. Does your shift at the scrapple factory end at 5.30?

no one knows better than you Joe--
The Clintons have ALWAYS put themself before party

Look at Al Gore - a true patriot who put party and country in front of self --

Barack Obama has to win - and I don't care what the pundits say - the democratic coalition will splinter without any chance to heal

Democrats cannot win without African Americans and Latte liberals - the kids will NOT come out for Hillary

And despite the polls - the older women will come back and vote for Barack (I have this confirmed by my mother!) --

This mess lies directly in the lap of Howard Dean and the "super" delegates who let this inevitable end to the dmeocratic nomination go on too long

Barack will be the nominee and maybe in the end it will be better that this all came out in the nominating process -- but I am one democrat will will never forgive Bill or Hillary Clinton for their selfish sense of entitlement at a time when this country desperately needs a democrat in the WH

They are the ones who were/are willing to roll the dice -- and for that they deserve the scorn of the people who care about the party and the country

Honestly, I've come to the "better now than later" conclusion on this sorry mess. HRC basically setting out the Republican playbook on how to run against Obama has the effect (if he can keep his lead and lock down the nomination) of basically setting the Obama team on notice. That's not bad. This fight hasn't been as dirty as it could have been and the echo chamber would have picked up on Wright, Ayers et al in October to distract from Iraq.

Now, Obama can say I've dealt with it what about this war you wanna keep on waging.

The Obama campaign needs HRC's supporters and can't drag out all the Clinton scandals if they're gonna have a shot of locking this down quickly and pivoting to a general election fight. Plus, it's twofer for them. If somehow the Wright stuff sticks and the superdelegates reverse his pledged delegate lead he can endorse Hillary and watch her (with the 60% beliving she's a liar and net negatives) get torn apart when the right wing brings up chunk after chunk of new information regarding the Clinton's.

Even with the broad support she has it'll depress youth turnout furthur and AA turnout will also be depressed at the reversal. It's McCain's best chance at winning.

Then again: getting to Denver is probably HRC's last attempt at the White House if she's not tapped as VP.

Clinton is subhuman. She's a piece of feces on the sidewalk.

The moderate, DLC wing of the Democratic Party has now taken to using the techniques of the ankle biters and gutter snipes of the extreme right. In former times this would have been shocking news. It seems about par for the course with respect to the Clinton campaign.

Our system seems pretty straight forward, if you are a liberal, join the Democratic Party. If you are a conservative, join the Republican party. If you want to obliterate 68 million Iranians and act like Rush Limbaugh, join the extreme right. Why do these cretins feel the need to turn the Democratic Party into a radical right-wing party of angry, insulting buffoons when we already have a perfectly good party to do that?

Liberalism is essentially synonymous with reason. Those who employ the techniques of ignorant, anti-rationalists have no right calling themselves liberals. They belong up in the rafters with the rest of the dime seat hecklers.

...and ABC's Georgie Girl is hosting a Hillary Townhall meeting it appears. They're not even trying to hide it anymore over at Mickey Mouse news. Not gonna post a Drudge link...you know where it is.

Disgusting!!! The party of Jefferson has now become the party of Karl Rove. As an AA, i don't see my self voting for anyone named Clinton.

Even if my dead father instructed me to vote for Hillary Clinton, I’ll refuse to hid the call. I have heard enough of this narcissist human being called the Clintons. Obama has not done them any harm, yet, they are all out to destroy him.

by kbanginmotown GOP, DNC, and MSM."

Not the DNC. Dean has done a good job of staying neutral and attacking McCain.

Know i know why the people's perception of the Democratic Party is for real. They are so weak and indecisive. Their leaders are morons who don’t deserve my attention.

I am waiting to see what they will do in June.

The sad thing is that Clinton has surrounded herself with such a collection of gutter slime that it's hard to figure out how I actually feel about her as opposed to her sleaze merchant surrogates.

Then again, the fact that she keeps hiring these people probably says quite a bit about her.

Dean has been the only "adult" in this process.

Is there anyone out there left that does not believe Hillary will do anything including destroy the Democratic Party and anyone who stands in her way?

I am glad to see Joe Andrew at least has a set and is willing to stand up to Hillaryzilla.

In its descriptions of the tactics of anti-Obama folks, I thought the following was an interesting part of "the piece:"

"In his February 7 Time magazine column, "Inspiration vs. Substance," writer Joe Klein, who, like Blumenthal, worked on the Boston alternative paper, The Real Paper, in the 1970s, wrote: "There was something just a wee bit creepy about the mass messianism -- 'We are the ones we've been waiting for' -- of the Super Tuesday speech and the recent turn of the Obama campaign." That same morning, Blumenthal sent the Klein column to his email list."

Amazing. Mr. Counterestablishment is using the counterestablishment against the fledgling progressive movement. The man must be ill.

Unbelievable.

For this reason alone, HRC's campaign should be put out of commission.

Well, basically the progressive movement minus Paul Krugman, anyway.

She's just vile -- and now she's down to wearing previously poor Chelsea around her dank, dark, foreboding, cheerless shell of of political life, like some sort of gigantic sock puppet, when the rural going gets tough.

On the plus side, her hair IS looking good today.

"Clinton is subhuman. She's a piece of feces on the sidewalk."

In the Global Gutter, more like IS.

"The sad thing is that Clinton has surrounded herself with such a collection of gutter slime that it's hard to figure out how I actually feel about her as opposed to her sleaze merchant surrogates.

Then again, the fact that she keeps hiring these people probably says quite a bit about her."

WE HAVE A WINNER.

A celebration of the halcyon days:

"He won the war, he was an effective commander, everybody recognizes that, I believe, except a few critics." -Tweety

"The tail hook caught the last cable, jerking the fighter jet from 150 m.p.h. to zero in two seconds. Out bounded the cocky, rule-breaking, daredevil flyboy, a man navigating the Highway to the Danger Zone, out along the edges where he was born to be, the further on the edge, the hotter the intensity." -Maureen Dowd

"Well, that was probably the coolest presidential image since Bill Pullman played the jet fighter pilot in the movie Independence Day. That was the first thing that came to mind for me." -Joe Klein

"He looked like alternately Commander in Chief, rock star, movie star and one of the guys." -Lou Dobbs

"Here, now, is the President of the United States as he walks across the deck with 2000 sailors and officers on board for his address to the nation on the recently completed war in Iraq." -Tom Brokaw

"Never before has a president landed aboard a carrier at sea, much less taken the controls of the aircraft." -Brian 'The Generals are cool!' Williams

"We're proud of our president. Americans love having a guy as president, a guy who has a little swagger, who's physical, who's not a complicated guy like [former President Bill] Clinton or even like [former Democratic presidential candidates Michael] Dukakis or [Walter] Mondale, all those guys, [George] McGovern. They want a guy who's president. Women like a guy who's president. Check it out. The women like this war. I think we like having a hero as our president. It's simple. We're not like the Brits. We don't want an indoor prime minister type, or the Danes or the Dutch or the Italians, or a [Russian Federation President Vladimir] Putin. Can you imagine Putin getting elected here? We want a guy as president." -Tweety, again

Just a bunch of high school geeks worshipping the varsity quarterback.

My hunch is that deep down many high ranking dems are frightened by Obama because of his ever broadening base of small donors. It would be easy to impute Clinton's embrace of right wing tactics to blind lust for power, but I think there are many democrats who fear the decentralization of money in the party.

Why Joe do facts always have to have this Liberal bias with you. Jeez.

The thing that scares Billary IS Obama's ability to manage and amend without much apparent effort -- as opposed to their staggeringly expensive slash & burn destruction of anything in sight (and alot not).

Obama's a socialist, but at least he's an honest socialist.

If nothing else, he should get a good seat at the McCain inaugural.

Right between Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale.

They may also be afraid he can't win. And he may not be able to, if Clinton's crowd keeps sliming him like this. People aren't going to forget this.

In one email, Blumenthal wrote: "The record on Obama's fabled 'judgement'? So how would he conduct himself in those promised summits without preconditions with Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il, Chavez, Castro, and Assad? Let's look at how he did with Tony Rezko."

...

Sid Viscous skips the buffet at the Chinese restaurants, and goes right for the menu.

"They may also be afraid he can't win. And he may not be able to, if Clinton's crowd keeps sliming him like this. People aren't going to forget this."

Obama should announce his VEEP pick on Mother's Day.

I'm just throwing you guys a bone, but THAT would get some attention from Senator Shiksa, if he husband's race baiting won't.

The lieutenant consensual IS he'll choose Webb (a dour downer of an angry dweeb that McCain will mock for months if chosen).

He really needs to go with somebody that's a known tough, and perhaps someone older, with some business experience.

Any suggestions, DNC types?

No, I don't mean outfielder Richardson or George Soros.

You nice lib kids put on your thinking burkas now...

Clinton's new motto:

"Rich people -- God bless us!"

OK, one more gem and then back to the Texas compound:

1. Hillary IS mistrusted, and hated.

2. Obama IS only (yet) mistrusted.

To be fairy, she's closer to the national average on Iraq, and he's closer on Medicrap.

Other than that, peas in the same pandering pod of peabrains predictably doing what no other DNC campaign has done before except for every 4 years other than Ross Parrot's 1992 (1996 having been Powell's year, if he'd chosen to run).

Math: BJ Clixon won twice with LESS than 50% of the vote (he never got a majority, i.e. most Americans did not and do not like the skank ship).

OBAMA has Michelle to explain still, and a few other Howard U. relics, but he's eminently more likable, and potentially more capable -- and his campaign management has bordered on genius (if not his, somebody close to him -- not Rezko).

Sometime after Labor Day, we'll have some TV debates, and McCain will crack some jokes about his age and the Navy years, and people will like him -- even if they don't buy his package-of-the-week new found populist approach (which is not new).

The presumptive fat winners (Dean and Bloominshorts) will then be summarily run out of Greater Reston, if they don't self-implode before Denver itself.

Meanwhile, Iran just loaded fresh fuel into their newest deep lab for the Russians not to bother.

= NIXONS ACCOMPLISHED =

Says it was posted at 3:34 pm... But where's Atrios on this? Normally we'd at least get a link... Josh Marshall too--although I notice he's on Dreier's list. Maybe that's why he's got nothing up?

Hmmm....

I was at a rally in Denver in late January, I can was creeped out too...

What's the big deal?

This guy sounds like an Obama supporter who is doing the same thing Blumenthal is accused of.

I've said for a long time now that the nastiest stuff from both the primary and GE campaigns will come from the surrogates. Obama was able to appear above the fray earlier because he had so many supporters posting anti-HRC diaries at various progressive sites doing his dirty work. Not to mention his advantage in the MSM, who tend to be in his corner (apart from the wingnuts).

I'm just as cynical of Mr Dreier's motives at posting this now, when HRC is on ticking upwards, than I am of Blumenthal's methods.

I was at dailykos when the nasty threads (which are forbidden at mydd, a more pro-HRC site) started being posted after the Clinton's tax returns were released. Hundreds of Obama supporters flooded the site all excited about finding dirt on the Clintons. That's when I decided to stop posting there until the primary was finished.

Again, why is this guy posting this diary at Huffington now? Because Obama is in trouble.

"Again, why is this guy posting this diary at Huffington now? Because Obama is in trouble."

Which only keeps drunks paid, since McCain IS going to win in November -- and it won't be that close (like 10 points, easy).

America will not put 2 of the LEAST EXPERIENCED SENATORS IN HISTORY in charge during war Time, just as they refused to allow Commander Kerry & His Lost In Cambodia Ayersheads hijack the nation but for the sake of another trophy medal next to his copy of Kinski.

What IS is.

The Kos people were at least acting independent of the Obama campaign. But I don't spend much time over there, so I don't know.

Blumenthal is doing the same dirty tricks BS that liberal bloggers normally spend their time denouncing:

http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/25/whispers-from-the-fax-machine/

This is Mark Penn stuff. I expected better.

Maybe "independent" but the Obama camp knew they have a force of bloggers carrying their water for them.

Joe's post here is more the "fair and balanced" type of journalism that we see so much of now in the MSM. One candidate gets hit by something so the other guy/gal needs to have some negative points brought up about him/her.

If this guy thought Sidney was on HRC's payroll or just in collusion with her, he could have posted something about his long ago.

As I said, the timing is as smelly as a week-old fish.

I'm signing off to watch "Lost", which has more reality than this thread.

"Blumenthal is doing the same dirty tricks BS that liberal bloggers normally spend their time denouncing..."

That IS his SOP, dude.

Always was.

Always will be (until he takes himself out driving into a ski resort cedar tree Kennedy style after another slosh & burnout at Trader Vic's).

Pray no family van is in his way that night, or a preggers secretary in tow.

If your peers keep letting this rightwing network drive their coverage, then we need to applaud a Democrat finally playing the game. If you guys can ever be reformed, Barrack Obama is the right choice.

Then again, if Obama wins without the DC country club granting him membership -- the country wins.

Well everyone knew Blumenthal worked for HRC. He announced it publicly. But using the right wing infrastructure he spent his whole career fighting against, and using their same dishonest tactics, that's just slimy, I'm sorry. The Kos Obama people can be rude and aggressive, sure, but that's a different situation from the top people on your campaign using right wing slime--especially when the career premise of the guy doing it was standing up to the right wing slime factory...

I think the charge that Hillary "will do anything to win" is a little unfair. My problem with Bill and Hillary Clinton, actually, isn't that they are ruthless. The Obama campaign, in many ways, has been pretty ruthless.

What bothers me is the short-term thinking that the Clintons employ. It's like the old joke about the two lawyers hiking in the woods when they stumble upon a bear. One starts putting on his running shoes and the other asks, "Do you really think you can outrun a bear?" The reply: "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you." As long as the Clintons can outrun Obama as the right-wing smear machine hurls its filth, they are cool with it.

The fact that the right-wing smear machine would waste little time in turning on Hillary if Obama were knocked out is of no moment to Hillary's campaign. It isn't just that Hillary and Bill put their own interests above that of the party's. They are even willing to sabotage their own significant long-terms strategic advantages for arguably tiny short-term benefits.

"But using the right wing infrastructure he spent his whole career fighting against, and using their same dishonest tactics, that's just slimy, I'm sorry."

Yes, defending perjury and pardons as a flaming career IS an ugly thing.

= RED CHINESE ICBM PARTS ACCOMPLISHED =

"They are even willing to sabotage their own significant long-terms strategic advantages for arguably tiny short-term benefits."

They IS, in a verb, French.

Looks like someone let Brian "Obamish" Williams off his meds.

Obama being swiftboated by the Friends of Clintons. Lovely. And folks wonder why the netroots have had it with the GOP, DNC, and MSM.

Ain't that the freaking truth.

I want the whole lot of them to go away and never darken our doors again.

What's the big deal?

Oh, I don't know, it's FREAKING SLIMY???

I wonder whether Clinton keeps going because she now has no chance of winning in 2012? I can't see the black community or progressives forgiving her for this hollow, degraded performance of Karl Rove's Monster Album.

Southern Bell, good points.

Also, the communist guy will be a story. In reality it's nothing - like Ayers - but let's hope the Obama campaign is at least prepared for it this time. This is actually the only thing I don't get about Dreier's post. Since there is this abundant warning that these things will be stories - Rove even mentioned Ayers on television - why do the Obama campaign always seem so surprised? It wouldn't have been hard to come up with a solid 30 second answer on Ayers, because these are not real issues; they actually have the truth on their side. Yet they let Obama go into that last debate completely unprepared.

And apparently voters are destroying the Democratic party by not rushing to put this guy in a one-on-one fight with McCain, who wouldn't have to hold anything back because of the Superdelegates... I don't think Clinton can win, but at least she is giving Obama time to improve.

The Clinton's are experts at undermining Democrats. That is a big reason why a lot of us don't want her as the nominee.

"Clinton campaigns against Democrats on gas prices

by MBNYC
Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:26:28 PM PDT

Triangulation is alive and well, it seems. Hillary Clinton, descending ever deeper into the grotesque, today called out the Congress, the body of which she is a member and that is controlled by her party, to do something about gas prices.

Hotline:

"I believe it would be important to get every member of Congress on record," she said, per NBC/NJ's MIke Memoli. "Do they stand with the hard-pressed Americans who are trying to pay their gas bills at the gas station or do they once again stand with the oil companies? That's a vote I'm going to try to get, because I want to know where people stand, and I want them to tell us - are they with us or against us when it comes to taking on the oil companies?"

"Once again standing with the oil companies against us"? Is she high? >>>

MBNYC's diary :: ::

Now, we all know that suspending the gas tax isn't going to do much to save consumers money. At least, so say The New York Times, The Washington Post, Michael Bloomberg, top economists and the governor of New York. Even the Wall Street Journal editorial page, never averse to any tax cut no matter how idiotic, say this "smacks of poll-driven gimmickry".

Significantly, many Members of Congress are also opposed.

No, rephrase: many Democratic Members of Congress, the same Members who are going to be on the ballot in November.

Game this through for a moment: Hillary is demanding that legislators of her party align themselves with her on an issue that her Democratic opponent opposes and her republican opponent favors. Let's assume that Democrats in Congress oppose this idea; the New York Times notes broad opposition among legislators. However, in the Senate, Hillary is going to get that vote she wants.

Why?

Because Jon Kyl and Mel Martinez - both republicans - have introduced legislation to enact a gas tax holiday. In the known history of the universe, no republican has ever voted against a tax cut. So what happens to the Democratic legislators that oppose this republican bill?

Easy. They get attack ads that contain the phrase "even liberal atheist Hillary Clinton supported tax relief for car owners. Commie Democrat voted against what even Marxist Babykiller Hillary Socialist Clinton supported. - just too liberal for ."

Forget the abject stupidity involved in Hillary once again validating the quintessentially republican frame that the best cure for whatever ails America is always and regardless of circumstances a tax cut. Forget that Democrats are supposed to support policy that actually works. Forget even that in Hillaryworld, when it's us versus them, "them" means Democratic Members of Congress who are, drumroll, siding with the oil companies, because that's not political poison or anything like that.

Just think that Hillary, to score a point in a Democratic primary against a Democrat, just handed the other side yet another campaign issue - on top of Wright, Ayers, bitter, god, and guns.

Way to go, Hillary. You are awesome."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/1/222925/7147/47/507454

J.J., Blumenthal is sending these emails to "pundits", not anonymously mailing nasty fliers to American households.

I'm assuming the media types and bloggers who are getting these emails don't swallow the accusations hook, line and sinker.

Dreier said this has been going on for six months and it's only now that he decides to write a post about it. Coinky-dink? I don't think so.

I'm not saying the Obama camp has pressured bloggers favoring him into working sub rosa for them but I do think this guy's motives are to take some of the media heat off of Obama.

Obama from the beginning has tried to make the case that he is more electable than HRC, that the smear tactics of the right-wing hit squad make her poison at the box office, so to speak. Blumenthal is making the case that this is the stuff the righties will throw at Obama, that he has his own baggage and is no more electable than HRC is.

Southern Bell,

It still seems to me that your conflating someone who works directly for the Clinton campaign with an independent analyst. Dreier may prefer Obama in the same way that Krugman prefers Clinton, but if either Krugman or Dreier had an official capacity in the campaigns of the candidates they favor we couldn't treat them as analysts.

The question of Dreier's motivation, or the timing of it is a little beside the point. The question is whether or not it's OK for a democratic primary candidate to become part of the right wing echo chamber. If what Dreier is saying is true (and so far no one has stepped up to contradict it), then Clinton has done just that.

Echo chamber is a good word, and I thought Mickey Kaus's post about this was good (especially the "we're stuck with Sid bit").

But, I still don't think Blumenthal's methods, which are very open and any blogger/media person could call him out on it, is any different than Obama making the case against Clinton based on the crap the right-wing threw against her.

You could say that the MSM was a much more effective echo chamber against HRC because from the time she ran they dredged up the negative "ratings" instead of giving her a chance to reintroduce herself to the American public.

The most damning evidence against Dreier's assertion (and Kaus's) that Blumenthal is having any kind of effect on Obama's campaign is that old Sid has been doing this for six months and was being ignored by the people he was sending this stuff to. The coverage of Obama, on the blogs and in the non-wingnut MSM, had been respectful and almost downright worshipful. It wasn't until the Wright stuff and bittergate that the MSM actually started to do any kind of real examination of Obama.

Elvis, Well, the Clinton campaign is committed to the kitchen sink strategy.

You might be interested in Bob Somerby's discussion of how that term came into popular use. Features our own JK.

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh043008.shtml

Blumenthal is sending these emails to "pundits", not anonymously mailing nasty fliers to American households.

You've got a point. But I still think Jon Chait had the Clinton campaign nailed a few months back:

Clinton's path to the nomination, then, involves the following steps: kneecap an eloquent, inspiring, reform-minded young leader who happens to be the first serious African American presidential candidate (meanwhile cementing her own reputation for Nixonian ruthlessness) and then win a contested convention by persuading party elites to override the results at the polls. The plan may also involve trying to seat the Michigan and Florida delegations, after having explicitly agreed that the results would not count toward delegate totals. Oh, and her campaign has periodically hinted that some of Obama's elected delegates might break off and support her. I don't think she'd be in a position to defeat Hitler's dog in November, let alone a popular war hero.

Add Mark Penn to the mix, and is it any wonder that some Kossacks get ticked off about her campaign?

Clinton's path to the nomination, then, involves the following steps: kneecap an eloquent, inspiring, reform-minded young leader who happens to be the first serious African American presidential candidate (meanwhile cementing her own reputation for Nixonian ruthlessness) and then win a contested convention by persuading party elites to override the results at the polls.

Of course that young leader's campaign made the cynical decision that he should wage his campaign when the first serious female candidate (who coincidentally had large African-American support) because despite his lack of experience, he could more easily push his candidacy if she was in the field than if she wasn't. But that's ok... He was certainly entitled to run whenever he wanted, but I'm tired of his being totally pure while Hillary is painted as totally evil.

Southern,

I'm actually less concerned about the actual effects of Blumenthal's mudslinging than what it tells me about Clinton and her campaign, namely her willingness to embrace the tactics of the right and the right itself. Not only has Clinton used right-wing talking points against Obama, but she famously said John McCain was more prepared than Obama to be president. Her stance on the gas tax holiday foolishness follows this pattern and shows a certain confusion about which party she belongs to.

ivb,

Are you suggesting it was wrong for Obama to enter the race in the first place because Hillary was running? I'm not quite sure what your saying. Chait's comment was made after Obama had opened up a large delegate lead.

Thanks Joe for getting people on to the Clinton bashing game. Dreier on HuffPost ( the nesting ground for the anti-Clinton and pro-Obama crowd) to Joe to us. After a lull I guess it was time to go after Clinton.

It says a lot about those who can never do enough to undermine both Obama and Clinton. Democrats can chew up their own with glee: what is the difference between the Malkinites and the Obamians and the Clintonistas? They all seem to favour the gutter.

What this race has shown is that no one owns the high ground anymore.

You can't say it's been bad for the party for Obama to run--it's been good for the party. But you definitely can say that it's been bad for the party for Hillary to run the back-against-the-wall, long shot campaign that she's been running for the past few months.

But to be honest, I didn't like the idea of a HRC campaign in the first place. Besides her high negatives with the electorate, I didn't want to see four presidencies in a row shifted between two families.

But if she ran a good campaign, and was beating Obama by the margin that Obama is beating her right now, I would be supporting her. Both are good candidates (although sometimes I can't help thinking that HRC's true colors are coming out, between her disorganized staff and low tactics).

ivb: "Of course that young leader's campaign made the cynical decision that he should wage his campaign when the first serious female candidate (who coincidentally had large African-American support) because despite his lack of experience, he could more easily push his candidacy if she was in the field than if she wasn't."

So...Barack Obama is only running for president to spoil the coronation of Hillary Clinton. Not because he might actually think he has a vision of how to lead this country or feels he is qualified to do it - but because he, a newcomer, could somehow override a field with a candidate deemed by the media as inevitable, a candidate who was on a previous presidential ticket, a candidate who was a sitting governor with foreign policy bona fides, among others way more long in the tooth than him. And of course, that cynicism you refer to derives from another argument I've seen you put forth: he knows he's black and thus will be given a free pass (all history regarding black candidates in statewide and national elections aside - because, you know, there are so many black senators and governors out there).

I don't know, ivb - do you seriously believe the stuff you say? I know you're an HRC booster - but come on.

And then there's this:

Clinton campaign says Indianans are " s h i t " and "worthless white ni * * ers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN_nQOHj__s

What I'm saying is that the decision they made for him to run this year was a cynical one based on the thought that they could take down Hillary.

It was in response to this --
Clinton's path to the nomination, then, involves the following steps: kneecap an eloquent, inspiring, reform-minded young leader who happens to be the first serious African American presidential candidate

I said certainly he was entitled to run whenever, but that a big factor in the decision to run was that they thought they could take down the first serious female candidate. If she takes him on, she is evil because she is kneecapping an African American. Just one Hillary bash too many this morning before I had my Cheerios.

Yes, I do support Hillary because I think she has a better grasp of policy. I do not support everything she says or every position she takes. I heard Obama speak in 2000. I was very impressed with his oratory. I have not seen a lot since to persuade me he will make the best President. I am not at all as sure as many are that he will be able to change a lot in the way things are run and done. I'm more concerned that he won't be able to accomplish things.

However, I will happily support the Democratic candidate. All that really matters to me is the Supreme Court.

Thanks for the response, ivb.

I don't see how you can characterize the mere fact that Obama got in the race now as cynical. Were all the other candidates who entered the race also being cynical? Many of them had substantially more experience than Clinton. Seems like you are arguing that she was entitled to the nomination because she was the first serious woman candidate, but how could we know how serious she was without a serious race? I know that there are those that feel Obama is trying to take the nomination from Clinton, but I think that's a long bridge to drive across.

ivb, thanks for that link.

J.J., one of the most cynical things any campaign did this year was when the Obama camp decided to "push" the memo that the Clintons were using the "race card" (can we please throw that phrase under the bus and then can we throw "under the bus" under the bus?). And the press went along with it.

No one has been more damaged in this primary than BC and that was intentional on the part of the Obamaites.

And as for going along with Repug talking points, as I said, Obama also went along with Repug talking points re HRC. Plus, he has seriously denigrated the economic boom in the 90s, which certainly hurts the Dems in the GE.

Thanks for the link, ivb. I'd seen the NYT article that, I think, originated the term. It seems like (1) a Clinton aide actually did use the phrase, as Healy was careful to note that Drudge's claim about the photo couldn't be verified, and (2) Healy has done stuff to irritate Somerby in the past, which counts against Healy in my book.

Also, given Clinton's negative ads in Pennsylvania and Indiana hitting Obama for the "bitter" remarks and his failure to promise free gas, along with her statement that McCain has passed the commander in chief test and suggesting that Obama hasn't, make me think that it's not an inaccurate characterization.

Chait's "fratricidal maniac" charge came only after Obama had an insurmountable lead in pledged delegates.

Really, I'm not an Obama fanboy. He was my 3d choice, or maybe lower. I preferred Clinton to him when he was "poisoning the well" on health insurance. But he won the election, so the runner up should stop sliming him. She could learn a thing or two about class from fellow Arkansan Mike Huckabee.

I do not understand how a decision to run for president is "cynical" because it was based on the cold, calculating political view that... he could win. Only in a Hillary-centric view of the universe could it be taken as "cynical" to enter an election when Clinton is already running.

Lots of immensely talented, qualified people never get to be president. No one's entitled to it. Or even to a major party nomination. If experience is your lodestar, you should be pining for Dodd or Biden. Or Richardson.

This is such a non-story. Obama's entire candidacy is based on the idea that the right wing hate Clinton so much that she won't be able to govern effectively. The Clinton campaign is responding by saying that the right wing will hate him so much, and will have such contempt for him, that he will be unelectable in November. And sometimes the Obama campaign advances their argument by saying that she is horrible, and sometimes the Clinton campaign advances their argument by saying that he is ridiculously unprepared for the rigors of governing and campaigning against the Republican attack machine.

They are both being negative, but I honestly don't have a problem with either of their arguments. (I just made the Clinton campaign argument, with a little variation, in my last post and I see some variations of the Obama campaign argument on this thread) Neither argument is inappropriate for a Presidential election. My only problem is that the media is accepting this idea of Obama running a positive campaign, merely because he says he is running a positive campaign. It's like how they accept the idea of McCain being maverick, merely because he has organized his campaign around the slogan "straight talk." And now they are criticizing Clinton because Sidney Blumenthal is doing off the record what the Obama campaign does on the record.

Obama's entire candidacy is based on the idea that the right wing hate Clinton so much that she won't be able to govern effectively.

No.

he has seriously denigrated the economic boom in the 90s, which certainly hurts the Dems in the GE.

It's true that he should not have denigrated the Clinton boom. But it hasn't exactly been a major component of his campaign-- it's something that he's said once or twice, I believe only in response to questions. So I don't think it actually does hurt the Dems in the general.

Elvis, actually he has said it several times and I'm sure the Repugs will gleefully throw it back in our faces in the GE when Obama tries to make the case that the Dems are the best ones to manage our economic crisis.

My main point is that Obama still has a free pass, as does McCain, on many issues. And it will be very very interesting to see how the MSM handles their two Sweet Baboos.

Southern Bell,

Republicans have nothing to throw in anyone's face when it comes to the economy. If the general election is about the war and the economy, the Republicans lose in a landslide. If it becomes about the kind of crap Blumenthal is disseminating, then we could actually get stuck with McCain.

"This piece is all the rage in the mainstream and liberal journo worlds this afternoon."

Can you point me to the liberal journos so I can read them?

Elvis, perhaps I should have been clearer. Obama's candidacy is based on the idea that Clinton is too hated by the right wing to govern effectively in the same sense that Clinton's candidacy is based on the idea that he will be so hated by the right wing - who will also have contempt for him - that he will be unelectable. Obviously both of their candidacies are also based on issues and records, and other things that the media is bored by.

superterrificdelegate, I agree that it will be very difficult for the Republicans to win if the election is based on issues. In fact, that's one of my complaints about Obama. He has run a personality campaign to (almost) beat Clinton, and it's been very effective. But if the GE is fought on personality, McCain will win. And Rove will use Obama's denigration of the 90s economy to downplay the issue of the economy, so it is a problem; The Republicans don't care if Obama only talked about it a few times, that's enough ammunition for them.

"My main point is that Obama still has a free pass, as does McCain, on many issues. And it will be very very interesting to see how the MSM handles their two Sweet Baboos." - Southern Bell, so far I've found that their pro-McCain bias strongly outweighs their pro-Obama bias. Maybe that will change, but I'm very doubtful. If I actually believed that the MSM would stay pro-Obama in a GE, I would probably support Obama because electability is my main concern at this point.

Also, my own thinking on Obama's decision to run this year, when his main opponent would be a woman, is that it was a coincidence. That said, if you were going to find a template for the perfect candidate to exploit gender stereotypes, it would be Obama, because his emphasis on his opponents being too cold and divisive to govern effectively perfectly reinforces gender stereotypes. To be fair to him, I think sometimes he has to do that because as an African-American man he has to be very calm and composed, since he faces his own damaging stereotypes, and unless he criticizes his opponent for being too hostile, he risks being criticized for being too weak. And of course powerful women are generally criticized for being too hostile, so it all fits perfectly. Both Clinton and Obama face their own d****d if they do, d****d if they don't dynamic (Maureen Dowd perfectly articulates those dynamics in her articles).

I actually think that a lot of the recent success of Clinton has less to do with Wright and much more to do with the new criticism of Obama for being too weak. Now the question isn't "why is Clinton so tough? That's just not natural." It's become "why is Obama so weak?" BTW, this is what some people are just not getting about the elitist criticism. Elitist isn't really a code word for rich, it's a code word for weak and condescending.

Anyway, I have great admiration for both Obama and Clinton, because of their success in overcoming prejudicial stereotypes. And that's in spite of the fact that Obama has played the gender card at times, just as Clinton has played the race card. However, it's very sad to see how restricted both Clinton and Obama are in this campaign. She's had to lower her voice, Obama has had to let his staff do most of the attacking in this campaign, and they are still way better than most white male politicians. Wouldn't it be great to see how these two candidates could run if they didn't have to think about race and gender stereotypes?

Rose,

I think it may seem like Obama has run a personality campaign to some because the policy differences between the two Dems are so minor. If you look at times when McCain has come after Obama, for instance on Iraq, Obama has come out swinging. There's been absolute clarity and decisiveness both in what he has articulated and how he has articulated it. The gas tax holiday has been a good example of an actual policy issue between Clinton and Obama where there are clear differences (unfortunately because Clinton is in McCain's camp). Obama has been forceful in defending his position and poking holes in Clinton's argument. This is actually a good preview of what an Obama/McCain GE would look like when there are genuine policy differences across the board.

Eric Alterman replies:

http://mediamatters.org/altercation/200805020001#2

It's true, things could have been blown out of proportion. As Steve Benen was saying, it's hard to tell without looking at the emails themselves...

بلوتوث - -
مقاطع بلوتوث - -
يوتيوب - -
مقاطع يوتيوب - -
فديو يوتيوب - -
فيديو يوتيوب - -
افلام - -
موقع يوتيوب - -
youtube.com - -
يوتيوب عربي - -
منتديات - -
مسنجر - -
مدونة - -
العاب بنات - -
العاب باربي - -
Mzaeen’s Weblog - -
يوتيوب - فيديو - بلوتوث - -
تحميل افلام - -
تحميل افلام
تحميل افلام
افلام
افلام
مشاهده افلام
تحميل افلام - مشاهده افلام
افلام - تحميل افلام - مشاهده افلام
مركز تحميل - -
تحميل - -
تحميل صور - -
تحميل ملفات - -
مركز التحميل - -
صور - -
العاب لعب العب - -
لعب - -
العاب - -
لعب العب - -
hguf - -
العب - -
67 - - -p-2 - - افلام انمي - - صور انمي - -
صور الأنمي - - خلفيات انمي - - انمي بنات حزينة - -
صور بنات انمي - - انمي بنات رومنسية - -
انمي حزينة - - صور بنات انمي - - اجمل بنات انمي - -
زفاف انمي - - زفاف عرايس - - انمي اطفال - -
بنات انمي رومنسي - - صور انمي حزينه - - صور الجاسوسات - -
صور انمي 2008 - - صور بنات حلوات - -
شباب انمي - - صور انمي - -
صور احلى بنات - - بنات انمي رومنسي - -
انمي رومنسي - - انمي رومنسي حلوة - -
صور انمي احضان - - افلام كرتون - - افلام انمي - -
انمي خليجي - - مسلسلات كرتون - - افلام انمي - - صور انمي - - 68 - -
68-p-2 - - سياحة وسفر - -
سياحة - -سفر - -فنادق - -
46 - -46-p-3 - -46-p-6 - -
ناطحات سحاب - -أفضل 10 مدن - -
مدينة الحب الفرنسيه - -فندق الحب - -
صور - -24 - -34-p-3 - -
34-p-6 - - - -34-p-13 - -
34-p-15 - -34-p-20 - -
34-p-25 - -34-p-29 - -
34-p-30 - -34-p-35 - -34-p-38 - -
34-p-40 - -صور جيملات العرب - -صور طبيعية - -صور متحركة - -صور بنات - -صور رومنسية - -صور اطفال - -صور رومانسية - -
صور قلوب - -صور قلوب حب - -
صور قلوب رومانسية - -ورود وزهور - -
زهور - -صورة الغروب - -
سوالف بنات - -صور حب - -صور حب رومانسية - -
صور حب 2008 - -صور قلوب - -
قلوب روعة - -صور قلوب رومانسية - -
صور حزينة - -صور متحركة - -
صور متحركه منوعة - -صور حب - -
صور خلفيات - -خلفيات رومانسية - -
صور انهار - -صور شلالات - -
صور مصرقعه - -جنس ثالث - -
صور جنس ثالث - -صور حزينة - -
صور شلالات وانهار - -صور جميلة - -صور غريبه - -
صور رومنسية - -صورطبيعة - -صور السعودية - -
صور الورد - -صور وتعليقات - -صور مضحكة - -
شموع - -صور حلوة - -
احلى عروس - -صور رعب - -24 - -24-p-3 - -
24-p-5 - -24-p-8 - -فوتوشوب - -
تصاميم - -صور تصاميم - - صور تصاميم رومانسية - -
صور قلوب - -صور تصميم - -صور تصميم رومنسية - -
صور عيون - -صور دباديب - -بطاقات رومانسية - -
صور تصميم شباب - -صور بنات للتصاميم - -صور بنات - -
صور رومانسيه حزينه - -صور نسائية - -صور نسائية روعة - -
صور رجال - -صور احترافية - -59 - -
58 - -ملحقات التصميم - -دروس التصميم - -
جميلات العرب - -اليسا - -
صور طبيعية - -صور قلوب - -
صور رومنسية - -بلوتوث مزايين - - البوم صور مزايين - -
صور ماسنجر - -وسائط - -
صور حب - -صور بنات - -صور بنات للمسن - -
العاب مكياج و ميك اب - - العاب ازياء - - العاب مغامرات - -
العاب بنات - - العاب تلبيس بنات - - العاب باربي - -
العاب بلياردو - - العب - - العاب - -

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المنتدى العام - - مواضيع ساخنة ومثيرة - - ترجمة - -
ازياء - - موضة - - فساتين - -
مكياج - - ميك اب - - اكسسوارات - - ديكور - - غرف نوم - -
اثاث - - طبخ - - مطبخ - - حلويات - - اكلات - - معجنات - - تغذية - - صحة - - طب - -
شعر - - قصايد - - خواطر - - عذب الكلام - -
قصص - - روايات - - طرب - - رجة - - مسابقات - - صرقعة - - صور - - بلوتوث و مقاطع فيديو - - بلوتوث - - العاب فلاش - - صور انمي - - افلام انمي - - عدسة التصوير - -
افلام عربية و مسلسلات - - مسلسلات اجنبية تلفزيونية - - افلام عربية و افلام اجنبية و مسلسلات تلفزيونية - - برامج كمبيوتر - - فوتوشوب - - ثيمات - العاب الجوال - خلفيات - - برامج نوكيا - نغمات - برامج جوال - - رسائل جوال - مسجات - رسايل وسائط - sms - - مسنجر - برامج ماسنجر - توبيكات - - دروس التصميم - -
ملحقات التصميم - - بلوتوث - -
-
برامج نوكيا - - -كورة - - -صور - - -
مسنجر - - - طرب - - -
العاب - - -
قصص - - - مكياج - - - موضة - -
- ديكور - -
- وسائط - -
- برامج - -
-افلام - - -
مقاطع فيديو - - -
مواضيع ساخنة - - -ثيمات
جوال - - -نغمات - - -
افلام انمي - - -خواطر - - -
العاب جوال - - -افلام
عربية - - -ازياء - - - صور
انمي - - -
سياحة - - -مسلسلات اجنبية - - -
شعر - - -اناشيد - - -
توبيكات - - -رسائل
جوال - --تصاميم -
شات
شات الرياض
بنت حواء
بنت نجد
عروسة
عروس
العاب شمس
صور رومنسيه
صور جميلة
احلى رومانسيه
صور رومنسيه
صور جميلة
احلى رومانسيه
67
-p-2
توبيكات
مسنجر
برامج ماسنجر
توبيكات ملونة
- توبيكات -
توبيك -
صور ماسنجر -
مقالب للماسنجر
- ماسنجر بلس
- صور قلوب ماسنجر
- صور ماسنجر
رومنسيه - صور
للماسنجر -
أحلى توبيكات -
رموز للماسنجر
- توبيكات ملونه
- ثيمات ماسنجر
- توبيكات توبيك
- توبيكات رومنسية
- توبيكات اغاني
- صور بنات
للمسن - صور
بنوتيه - صور
مسنجر -
توبيكات حب -
توبيكات حب وغرام -
توبيكات ملونه
للمسن - صور
بنات للماسنجر 2008 -
توبيكات شعر -
صور مسنجر اطفال
- توبيكات مصرقعة
- زخارف مسنجر
- سكربتات
للماسنجر -
اختصارات للماسنجر -
كلمات للمسن -
توبيكات مسلسل
سنوات الضياع -
صور مهند ونور
للمسن -
توبيكات روعة -
توبيكات رومانسية
ملونة - احلى
توبيكات للمسن -
توبيكات حزينة
- توبيكات
رومانسية ملونه مع صور -
صور قلوب رومانسية
للمسن - صور
بنات للمسن -
صور بنوتات للماسنجركلمات رومنسية عبارات رومانسية للمسن
بنات للمسن msn صور بنات رومنسية للمسن عذاب وحب للمسن توبيكات خيانة صور اليسا للمسنجر
صور فنانين للماسنجر احلى توبيكات رومنسية توبيكات روعة
جميلات العرب
اليسا
صور طبيعية
صور قلوب
صور رومنسية
بلوتوث مزايين
البوم صور مزايين
صور ماسنجر