Re: McCain-Obama Tiff

Thank you KT for addressing this. I raised this issue in Joe's original post. The troops are forced to put a dog and pony show whenever high level officials show up. It causes a big hassle even on state side bases so you can imagine what it takes to put these on in a war zone.

It also serves no purpose in my mind for Barrack and McCain to tour Iraq together. In case anyone does not know senior officials are not allowed to travel together in a place like Iraq just like senior officers aren't. So with McCain and Obama there at the same time would be double work.

Way to go Karen!

Damn straight, KT. Here's what Axelrod said in an interview with Sam Stein. I think this should be the standard line from Obama

"The fact that he goes to Iraq and gets a tour apparently does little to provoke the kinds of questions that should be asked, and what Sen. Obama has been asking since the beginning. So it is not a question of longevity in government. It is a question of judgment, it is a question of a willingness to challenge policies that have failed. And he seems just dug in."

Obama should ask McCain how come he has time to go to Iraq, but he can't seem to make time to vote on bills that matter to people.

LOS ANGELES -- While Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) has made action on climate change a central theme in his campaign, he won't be on hand to vote next week when the Senate considers a landmark bill imposing mandatory limits on greenhouse gases.

In a press conference late Wednesday afternoon, McCain said he did not support the bill sponsored by two of his closest allies, Sens. Joseph I. Lieberman (I-Conn.) and John Warner (R-Va.) because it doesn't offer enough aid to the nuclear industry, and he would not come to the floor to vote on it.

"I have not been there for a number of votes. The same thing happened in the campaign of 2000," he said. "The people of Arizona understand I'm running for president."

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/29/mccain_to_miss_climate_vote.html

Karen, Jessica Yellin has just spilled the beans, corporate killed critical White House stories during the run-up to the war:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0508/CNNs_Yellin_Network_execs_killed_critical_White_House_stories_.html

Its time, this is the moment, time to tell everything you know, and what we've always suspected. This can be a cleansing moment, you might be able to save your journalistic souls, but you have to start being honest now, no more defensiveness, tell us everything you know about what was going on at the time. Were you pressured? Were any critical stories about Bush or the looming war effort ever spiked by your superiors? It's time.

You know Obama will turn up in Iraq soon enough. If nothing else thats 150,000 votes to stump for.

Shorter Axelrod: You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Hopefully, they won't have to hold hands!

"John McCain's proposal that he and Barack Obama take a joint trip to Iraq is one of the worst ideas I have heard in a long time."

I 100% agree.

KT here--

Cincinnatus, I addressed what I know of this in a thread yesterday. I honestly never felt any corporate pressure, but I wrote only one big story in the run-up to the war. You may read it here:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003239-1,00.html

Before the Iraq war started, there were many and frequent polls asking Americans whether, for instance, we thought that the USA would WIN the war. Implicit in such polls was the premise that going to war was 'right'/ 'justifiable' AND that going to war was a fore-gone conclusion.

Implicit in talking about the logistics of a joint or even a solo hyped visit to the war front - the scene of on-going crime - is the premise that such a visit is necessary and that the crime, tolerable/justifiable.

Perhaps, a visit to a veteran's hospital to spend time with those wounded in pursuit of phantom WMDs, should also be required.

And a visit to the graves - at Arlington National Cemetery - of those who died in Iraq will do.
On May 26, 2008, Bush - who sent us into that Iraq war in pursuit of phantom WMDs - said that the cemetery " .. is filled with liberty's defenders. It is nourished by their heroism. It is watered by the silent tears (of loved ones).."
Uplifting words from a president (and vice president) who would rather not go to the Vietnam war front.
'Uplifting'?

McCain's frequent gaffes; his outright ignorance and waffling on issues; and his seething anger raise questions about his judgment and his readiness to lead as commander in chief.

Cincinnatus wrote:
"..This can be a cleansing moment, you might be able to save your journalistic souls, .."
GOD DAMN AMERICA MEDIA!

Wow Karen. Thanks for that link down memory lane. Considering the environment at the time, that was indeed a decent piece; I have to ask you though, when you typed this:

He will need the world's backing for the same reason that he had to turn to Congress for support despite his White House counsel's view that he already has the legal and constitutional authority to launch an attack on his own.

did you think that you would be forshadowing a concerted relentless effort to rewrite article II so that the President's war-powers become completely limitless while that of the Congress become completely atrophied?

I'd have felt a lot better about the President's efforts to install a Democracy in Iraq if he hadn't been putting just as much effort into dismanltling it here in the Good Ol' USA.

Don't tell Michael.

washingtonpost.com chat this afternoon, Post Congressional reporter Paul Kane suggested that there is “no way” the Secret Service would buy into the McCain/Graham scheme:

Roseland, N.J.: John McCain's suggestion that both he and Barack Obama visit war-strewn Iraq together: Can you think of an idea the Secret Service would veto faster?

Paul Kane: Yeah, that idea did make me chuckle. No way Secret Service allows such a thing.

Remember that market visit McCain did in Baghdad in early '07? He had a battalion of guys protecting him, not to mention choppers flying overhead. Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) described it as like any "Indiana market". Um, no, not really.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/05/26/DI2008052601813.html?nav=rss_liveonline

KT here--

Alas, PD, I wish I had been so prescient. Just went back and looked at what else I was writing at the time. I was plenty busy on my beat, such as it is. There were, among other stories, the 2002 midterms, a big project I did on Al Gore, the fight over creating a Homeland Security Department and Trent Lott's flameout.

But for reporters more directly covering the war debate, and especially the White House, there is a new round of self-examination going on as a result of McClellan's book. Note this:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0508/Donahue_agrees_Couric_and_Yellin_comments.html

a word of advice for Obama. Do not sit in the front seat with McCain directly behind you. Do not, I repeat, do not stop to let Mccain pee in a deserted field somewhere. And most important, do not stop for canneloni!!

Off topic.

Commenters can help raise the information level on McCain by linking to one of nine stories Bowers has selected as being especially helpful in giving voters guidance on McCain's record. Making a habit of linking one of these articles to McCain's name will move these articles up in priority at search engines. Bowers notes that this messaging is presented by either John McCain himself, or by a non-partisan news organization (or, in most cases, both)

I've been wondering what the response would be to the republican email smear campaign. This would be part of it.

That was my impression too, Karen. Thanks for weighing in on this.

Posted by Karen Tumulty May 29, 2008 12:58:

[The mind-boggling logistics and security of a McCain/Obama Iraq junket] doesn't mean that going to Iraq is a bad idea for lawmakers.

Karen:

You seem to have skipped over a highly questionable, yet fundamental underlying premise of your statement: that by going on a tour of operations arranged and conducted by the Pentagon, one can further an objective analysis of the situation in Iraq.

Questions making this assumption so susceptible to doubt might include:

1) What legal obligations are there on the part of the military to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

2) Given the dedication to successful psyops by a post-Viet Nam Pentagon ever-mindful of the fact that winning a war overseas is dependent on public support at home, what evidence is there to demonstrate that these tours aren't conducted by the military as part of an ongoing operation? What evidence is there to demonstrate that the military conducts these tours for the purposes of Freedom of Information Act-type disclosure?

3) Given the world's history of highly dependent, military sponsored "inspection" regimes (Red Cross inspections of Theresienstadt comes to mind as a more heinous example), why wouldn't a free press abhor the very idea of such beneficently granted "access", and premise coverage on the principle of doubt, treating that which is currently unverifiable as propaganda until independently proven otherwise?

Karen:

Let's say that there have been some anecdotal reports surfacing recently about food poisoning, with strong leads to a particular brand of packaged meat product. Would you as a reporter investigate that story by taking a guided VIP tour of the brand's factories and facilities, and take at face value the statements of the tour guides as to the robustness of their quality control procedures?
Would you come back to your editors with a story whose conclusions are "Everything's A-OK at Brand X Meats, Inc! We took a tour, and saw for ourselves how much care goes in to safely producing and packaging their product!"?

Now let's assume that Brand X's facilities are located in Beruit, Lebanon circa 1980, and that the only guaranteed safe access that you and every other reporter has to observe quality control in action at Brand X Meats is to schedule a guided tour with their well-financed, well-prepared public relations department --a tour that has been planned "for security reasons" down to the very finest detail, and from which there can be no deviations. Are you still going to take that tour, knowing that everything that you would observe, every impression that you would get has been the product of design?

Would you still come back from those facilities and write story after story telling the public "Officials were clear in their denials of any connection between Brand X Meats and the rumors of widespread food poisoning, and Senators Dewey, Cheatham and Howe returned from a highly detailed, highly classified inspection tour of Brand X's Beruit facilities with praise for what Sen. Cheatham called 'the valiant efforts of the fine people at Brand X to make meat consumption by the American public safe and secure.'"?

If you would not write or publish the theoretical report above, and can recognize that the methods of those publishing that story are obviously flawed, could you please explain to your readers the difference between the two scenarios, i.e. our theoretical meat packing tours and the ongoing junkets provided to the press and lawmakers?

Why would they not be regarded with equal suspicion?

Oh, and one more brief question for Karen:

Don't whatever laws we have against state or military disinformation operations or propaganda campaigns stop at the water's edge?

Can't intense, dedicated psy-ops be legally conducted with respect to applications to citizens, journalists and lawmakers precisely because they're conducted on foreign soil in occupied Iraq?

Karen Tumulty - Thank you for your honest description of the McCain Campaign Proposal. I simply cannot understand why anybody is taking that offer on face value - it is, of course, just a stunt to try to make Obama look bad. Why is the media discussing this as if it were an actual proposal instead of the stupid, pandering stunt that it is?

Of course Obama has not made a trip to Iraq - he is still competing in a fierce nomination battle!

The offer is not the issue here. The real issue is that John McCain would pull a stunt like this in the first place. Why would John McCain want to remind voters that he was a big proponent of the Iraqi invasion? That he was a public shill for the occupation despite having concerns about how it was handled? That he held one of the most ridiculous PR stunts by attending an Iraqi marketplace - with flackjacket and full military escort - and claimed that everything was just peachy, only to have that marketplace destroyed soon afterwards?

The more I think about it the more certain I become that John McCain's alleged 'Foreign Policy Expertise' has nothing to do with actually knowing anything about foreign policy, and everything to do with convincing frightened Americans that he will drop bombs on a country that he does not like.

@ Stuart_Z

Your scenario is a bit different than the one being considered. In Obama's case he would be attending not as an investigative journalist but as a member of a Senate Committee. Think more like someone from the accounting department being toured by the plant manager in your example. There would be similar desire to gloss over information but the need to at leastappear to be playing on the same team would be in place.

What disturbs me more is the idea that the Armed Forces has a product to sell in the first place. This flies in the face of the founders vision of avoiding having a professional class of soldiers at all. Rereading Article I of the Constitution always reveals the boggling disconnect between the role of the miltary as envisioned in that document and what has evolved out of the ashes of WWII.

Simply stated though, the Army is under command of the civilian leadership of the Country, exists at the behest of the House of Representatives and ABSOLUTELY has no business engaging in propaganda efforts designed to bolster support for an open-ended mission in a foreign land against the express will of the citizens of both that land and this one.

To quote the bumper sticker: If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

Terrapinion,

One reason McCain knows that the chances of 2 U.S. presidential candidates touring an active war zone together are zero. But there is no down side if Obama says no. He can then fan the flames by showing Obama as refusing to go refusing to see, refusing to learn or any other bumper sticker crap his team can come up with.

KT here--

Guys, I have asked Brian Bennett, a colleague here who has covered Baghdad and (as a DC correspondent) gone along on a CODEL, to send me a description of how different a view you get, and how much you really see when you are in the CODEL bubble. Will post when I get it.

I'm not a resident of Rhode Island but I really, really want to vote for Jack Reed for something. That report, and his actions when in Iraq are just amazing and about as far from a "vip visit" as its probably possible for a U.S. Senator to get.

Absolutely great analysis of the current situation and its true causes/effects and probable outcomes. If anyone here hasn't read it I recommend it in the strongest terms possible.

Stuart,

VIP visits aren't actually that carefully screened, what happens is VIP "X" comes to your base/fob whatever. He/She meets with a couple of people ranked LTC and above, probably one or two Captains or Lieutenants that have been carefully selected as the type who don't make waves. There will also be a smattering of enlisted personnel, who generally consist of those who weren't smart enough to get out of it. The only real "deception" going on is that people pretend this is anything but a chance for the highest ranking officers present to score some political points with VIP "X", and for VIP "X" to get some nice photo ops/ big cool guy quotes. It's a mutually deceiving affair. Its very rare for any officials to meet with straight up regular troops and talk with them privately one-on-one or in public. Generally because things like what happened to Rumsfeld in Kuwait occur.

Before his death, COL Hackworth would, when touring a base/AO, skip as much of the dog and pony show as possible and talk to lower enlisted personnel and mid-level NCO's as much as possible to try and get a more accurate picture of what was actually occurring. I had the pleasure of corresponding with COL Hackworth while I was in Iraq before his death, Senator Reed's report and methodology in obtaining it suggests to me that he is a similarly motivated individual in obtaining the actual truth.

Karen Tumulty - You wrote: "Guys, I have asked ..."

Woohoo!! Thank you for doing this.

GySgt213 - You are absolutely correct. McCain makes a proposal that he knows cannot be accepted and then he uses the refusal as some kind of indictment against Obama. Truly a craven political stunt.

, I have asked Brian Bennett, a colleague here who has covered Baghdad and (as a DC correspondent) gone along on a CODEL, to send me a description of how different a view you get, and how much you really see when you are in the CODEL bubble. Will post when I get it.

Karen:

You're awesome. Thank you.
I'd love to get down to what reporting is the result of trust, and what's the result of empirical verification that the reporter knows is simply happening, i.e., that the reporter would see if it were safe enough to take the tour without the military conducting it. How would the reporter know the difference?

KT here--

I've posted Brian's thoughts.

Thanx KT, I'm not going to parse the article you linked, but it was actually pretty good. It was especially good at painting a picture of an administration that was starting to understand that they were going to have to go big and redouble their efforts to turn public opinion, and this would be the time the Penatagon Psyops efforts began wouldn't it?

Yellin has clarified her statements essentially placing the blame on producers and not corporate, which of course changes nothing.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/197569.php

What it does is paint a picture of a craven mainstream news media who see their roles as nothing more than say Pat O'Brian's role at Access Hollywood, trying to generate content that will draw in crucial demos consequences be damned. Seriously Karen, why should anyone take what they hear on Big Media at face value?

The bad news is that when Obama shows up in-theater we can certainly expect a replay of this Crapola...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/iraqsnub.asp

Posted by Sean DeCoursey | May 29, 2008 3:50 PM:

Senator Reed's report and methodology in obtaining it suggests to me that he is a similarly motivated individual in obtaining the actual truth.

I'm suggesting that, in spite of admirable efforts on the part of individuals to understand what's really going on over there (in the entire country, btw), the dog-'n-pony show is probably just the same as every other dog-'n-pony show put on by organizations to present their efforts in the best light demanded of them.

Even if it somehow could be SOP for anybody with the cash to get over there --lawmakers, bloggers, whomever-- "to meet with straight up regular troops and talk with them privately", there's still the small matter of talking privately to regular Iraqis in the various parts of the country, since the success of so many missions depends so heavily on what they believe at any given time.

I've answered one of my own questions here:

United States PSYOP units and soldiers of all branches of the military are prohibited by law from conducting PSYOP missions on domestic audiences.[4] While PSYOP soldiers may offer non-PSYOP related support to domestic military missions, PSYOP can only target foreign audiences. Though, it is worth noting that this does not rule out PSYOP targeting foreign audiences of allied nations.

I have not yet read the law(s) in question to determine if this is true.

That said, this is somewhat troubling:

The CNN and NPR Interns Incident

In the 1990s it came to light that soldiers from the 4th Psychological Operations Group had been interning at the American news networks Cable News Network (CNN) and National Public Radio (NPR). The program was claimed by the Army to be an attempt to provide its PSYOP personnel with the expertise developed by the private sector under its "Training with Industry" program. The program caused concern about the influence these soldiers might have on American news and the programs were terminated.

National Public Radio reported on April 10, 2000:

The U.S. Army's Psychological Operations unit placed interns at CNN and NPR in 1998 and 1999. The placements at CNN were reported in the European press in February of this year and the program was terminated. The NPR placements will be reported this week in TV Guide. [19]

It should also be mentioned that there is this theory about executive power floating around called "The Unitary Executive", in which compliance with laws passed by Congress is not necessarily to be standard policy.

Thanks for your perspective, Sean DeCoursey.

Karen Tumulty - Ugh. I appreciate Brian Bennett's opinions about the usefulness of on-the-ground visits but it is sad to see that he has bought into the imperative for Obama to make a visit. Of course Obama is going to make a visit! That was never an issue and should remain a non-issue since it is obvious that Obama has had his hands full with an unprecedented primary battle.

The issue is - and always will be - that John McCain made a proposal that he knows cannot be accepted and then he uses the refusal as some kind of indictment against Obama. Truly a craven political stunt.

Karen's the best! I also think it would be a bad idea for Obama to go along with McCain's idea. When Obama visits (I think he will) it should be a quiet thing, if that's possible. Without huge crowds and just minimal, if any, press.

Similarly, I don't think the dual trip around the country to debate would be good. Obama draws crowds of the tens of thousands; McCain gets hundreds, usually. The joint trip would be McCain siphoning off of Obama's crowds, enthusiasm, and publicity, it seems to me.

KT,

Could you ask Brian and even add your own opinion of the worth of this idea if this were to happen again:

A newborn baby was one of at least 14 children and adults killed when a suicide bomber detonated a lorry laden with explosives close to a primary school in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk yesterday.

The latest massacre of Iraqi children came as 21 Shia market workers were ambushed, bound and shot dead north of the capital. The victims came from the Baghdad market visited the previous day by John McCain, the US presidential candidate, who said that an American security plan in the capital was starting to show signs of progress.

The Kirkuk bloodshed erupted when a bomber driving a truck full of explosives hidden by sacks of flour targeted an Iraqi police station that US soldiers were visiting. The full force of the blast hit a nearby primary school.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1604931.ece

This is a lot of noise to be making over John McCain jumping up & down (to the extent that he can) and telling Obama to go on a long trip.

Still, interesting stuff, & thanks to KT & Brian Bennett for demonstrating the actual consequences of what McCain is suggesting.

Umm...you commenters all understand the "McCain Challenge" is all about getting Obama to photo-op in Dukakis tank-helmet gear, right?

Well McCain's off saying unsupported crap again!!

In his new book, former White House press secretary Scott McClellan charges that the Bush administration manipulated information in a “propaganda” campaign before the Iraq war, making the faulty claim that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

Asked about the book today, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) defended the administration’s actions in the run-up to the war, suggesting there was no manipulation involved. McCain claimed “every intelligence agency in the world” thought Hussein had WMD:

"I have not seen the book or the comments. But I know why I supported it [the war] because I believed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction as did every intelligence agency in the world and every assessment."

John obviously didn't look at these assessments:

State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR): Concluded that the “activities we have detected do not add up to a compelling case that Iraq is currently pursuing what [the INR] would consider to be an integrated and comprehensive approach to acquire nuclear weapons.”

Department of Energy: Concluded aluminum tubes said to be used for nuclear centrifuges were “likely intended for small artillery rockets.”

International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA): On March 7, 2003, IAEA chief Mohamed El-Baradei reported there was “no evidence that Saddam Hussein had any nuclear weapons or was in the process of acquiring them.”

Hans Blix, chief U.N. weapon’s inspector: In June 2003, Blix told the U.N. Security Council that his inspection teams had not found any “smoking guns” after visiting some 125 Iraqi sites.

http://thinkprogress.org/

Are they really pulling out the old WMD excuse again?

I though that got laid to rest. I thought there was documented evidence and accounts (see GySgt213's post above) as to how flimsy the WMD excuse was.

Why are we letting them get away with "but we thought for sure he had WMDs" all over again?

KT-

what a surprise..a negative story on McCain..oh my! you just vailidated a study I read by a left leaning Journalism foundation. A new Study by the Pew Research Centers Project for Excellence in Journalism and the Joan Shorenstein center on press politics and public policy at Harvard. As many here whine about McCain getting a free pass, the study broke down positive narratives in the press...and surprise Obama led with 69%..Clinton with 67% and McCain with a mere 43%. Karen..why the blatant bias in the media against McCain..Can you please comment. I know I am not a fellow liberal, but a reply would be appreciated

Jimmyihamz,

Why don't you actually read the study instead of just looking at the pretty graphs and ask your question again. Here's a hint: It does not say what you think it does.

The point of this proposal by McCain is so he and Petraeus (who some say harbors political ambitions, though he denies it) can sandbag Obama together. And so McCain can claim to be "teaching" Obama a thing or two in order to caricature him as inexperienced.

Lost in that atrocity of an ABC debate was a very good response by Obama on how he sees his role as C-I-C. To Obama, it's not about one country, but the nation's interests as a whole which requires you to go beyond the mypoia of the Bush-McCain Iraq-centric/obsessed view of the world:

"MR. GIBSON: And Senator Obama, your campaign manager, David Plouffe, said, when he is -- this is talking about you -- when he is elected president, we will be out of Iraq in 16 months at the most; there should be no confusion about that.

So you'd give the same rock-hard pledge, that no matter what the military commanders said, you would give the order: Bring them home.

SENATOR OBAMA: Because the commander in chief sets the mission, Charlie. That's not the role of the generals. And one of the things that's been interesting about the president's approach lately has been to say, well, I'm just taking cues from General Petraeus.

Well, the president sets the mission. The general and our troops carry out that mission. And unfortunately we have had a bad mission, set by our civilian leadership, which our military has performed brilliantly. But it is time for us to set a strategy that is going to make the American people safer.

Now, I will always listen to our commanders on the ground with respect to tactics. Once I've given them a new mission, that we are going to proceed deliberately in an orderly fashion out of Iraq and we are going to have our combat troops out, we will not have permanent bases there, once I've provided that mission, if they come to me and want to adjust tactics, then I will certainly take their recommendations into consideration; but ultimately the buck stops with me as the commander in chief.

And what I have to look at is not just the situation in Iraq, but the fact that we continue to see al Qaeda getting stronger in Afghanistan and in Pakistan, we continue to see anti-American sentiment fanned all cross the Middle East, we are overstretched in a way -- we do not have a strategic reserve at this point. If there was another crisis that was taking place, we would not have a brigade that we could send to deal with that crisis that isn't already scheduled to be deployed in Iraq. That is not sustainable. That's not smart national security policy, and it's going to change when I'm president."

The main thing is that Obama recognizes and quickly stamps out this trend in which McCain is going to be inviting him to do things and trying to dictate Obama's campaign events.

He has to maintain control of his own campaign and all the events in it. Why would he let McCain's camp pull those strings?

BB:

I agree -- the correct response is: "Doesn't McCain have a campaign to run? Why is he so worried about what I'm doing?"

RKA:

Thanks for posting that quote.

God, that's heartening to read.

It is pretty amazing that the a Democrat running for President can tell the bold truth on a major network like that...

This is somewhat off-topic, but in digesting all of the recent news - Scott McLellen comes clean, other news sources admitting that critical stories were killed - I'm wondering:

If Bush, himself, came out tomorrow and said, "Yep, we lied about all of the things that led us into the Iraqi war," would people believe him? Would they recoil in horror at the thought that they helped support the effort to drain our economy, make ourselves look bad in the eyes of the world, and kill not only 4000+ of our own troops, but who knows how many Iraqis as well? Would ordinary American citizens feel a sense of shame for their role in not questioning the government closely enough - because it was more "patriotic" to wave a flag and go along with what the administration wanted? Will Toby Keith apologize to Natalie Maines for being wrong all along? (Thanks to Stu Z. for reminding me of this one.)

Or would he - and the American people - like the "cowboy" in "The Blue Hotel," get all upset and exclaim, "Well, I didn't do anythin', did I?"

Nice Guy,

I watched McLellen on Keith tonight and I have to say the guy came off as very thoughtful and sincere. He almost seemed at least to me much more comfortable talking than I have every seen him on the podium at the WH. I'm watching the Verdict now and and Dan is exposing the group think and the narratives being created to discredit the man. Its all so predictable its almost funny.

Mr. Nice Guy:

Well, now you've asked for it, you've made me go get the lyrics to a song written before I was even born:

Who killed Davey Moore by Bob Dylan

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not I," says the referee,
"Don't point your finger at me.
I could've stopped it in the eighth
An' maybe kept him from his fate,
But the crowd would've booed, I'm sure,
At not gettin' their money's worth.
It's too bad he had to go,
But there was a pressure on me too, you know.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not us," says the angry crowd,
Whose screams filled the arena loud.
"It's too bad he died that night
But we just like to see a fight.
We didn't mean for him t' meet his death,
We just meant to see some sweat,
There ain't nothing wrong in that.
It wasn't us that made him fall.
No, you can't blame us at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says his manager,
Puffing on a big cigar.
"It's hard to say, it's hard to tell,
I always thought that he was well.
It's too bad for his wife an' kids he's dead,
But if he was sick, he should've said.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the gambling man,
With his ticket stub still in his hand.
"It wasn't me that knocked him down,
My hands never touched him none.
I didn't commit no ugly sin,
Anyway, I put money on him to win.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the boxing writer,
Pounding print on his old typewriter,
Sayin', "Boxing ain't to blame,
There's just as much danger in a football game."
Sayin', "Fist fighting is here to stay,
It's just the old American way.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the man whose fists
Laid him low in a cloud of mist,
Who came here from Cuba's door
Where boxing ain't allowed no more.
"I hit him, yes, it's true,
But that's what I am paid to do.
Don't say 'murder,' don't say 'kill.'
It was destiny, it was God's will."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

Copyright © 1964

Um, did I miss the memo declaring the Democratic primary as over?

Mr. Nice guy:

Evidently so. You're welcome to continue participation in the delusional (or vengeful) alternative being maintained by the self-absorbed loser.

Back on topic:

Since the administration includes NASA I assume we'll see the candidates blasting off any day now. Can't set Mars policy if you haven't been to Mars lately, can you?

@ FlownOver: Don't assume too much. I don't care either way - I'm one of those "anyone but a Repub" types - but the total absence of Clinton is rather stark.

John McCain loves war.

John McCain says overturn the law that legalized abortion.

Sorry about the above comment. Just doing a test post. :)

Father Day Reflection on Election Campaign 2008 :
Election 2008 is not a election but a decision for homecoming. Americans are on the crossroad of homecoming or to the abyss. They are currently facing Great Depression II and the only conscious solution is to repeat what they had done in the last Depression and emerged as a much stronger country. In the 1930s Americans were smart enough not to elect a politician as president but to return home to their parents, FDR and Eleanor Roosevelt, who had nurtured them back to health and wealth. Today, we are facing the same dilemma, should Americans elect a radical politician who has given them empty promises? Or, to return home to their parents, John and Hillary? The choice is really quite simple. Obama and Black supporters reminisced wrestlers whose matches are pre-arranged and play by hitting under the belt theatrics causing economic downturn just to win. So, stop watching American games. Obama's white supporters are insulting their own race as incompetent and incapable of managing their own country . Whether Obama will be elected his "super delegates", who endorsed at other's expense, must be sentenced to live in Black neighborhoods for more than four years to find out what they are really like. The democratic governor of Oklahoma who had just endorsed Obama must be executed for causing their supernatural tornadoes. The communication media of the U. S. are circus clowns not worth commenting on because they have never given any honest election comments. American voters in general are "blind" to good judgement. Hillary Clinton, best American candidate in history, can be identified with a unspoiling mother who has wasted her own $10 million just to warn her stubborn and ignorance daughter not to date strangers in the street. John McCain who has shown the ability to set aside party differences for the common good, working relentless for the American by running on many elections and his decency has earned the trust of most Americans. Together as a team John and Hillary will carry Americans out of the current Great Depression. But will a good father send his children to early grave for a war that cannot be won? Obviously, our parents are much older than us but they have the experience we rely on and care we need. Happy Father Day!

Brian Bennett:
Especially for Obama, who, even if he
keeps his impressions to himself, needs to see what's changed since he was there in January 2006. It's going to matter a lot more if he winds up sitting behind the desk in the Oval Office.

Brian this would never happen as Obama's entire campaign is all about the ill-fated Iraq War. Going to Iraq and seeing for himself exactly what is being done by the hard-working Men and Women of our military would be un-refutable, and make for a very difficult position to continue to hold claiming "this war is wrong".

The whole premise of the Democrat far-left liberal base is to rant and rave about the in-effective military operation, when in fact the surge has worked and stability is being achieved.

It is more 1960's style politics (Vietnam) to make this look bad so that the political pundits here and elsewhere make it all out to be negative. To drive the wedge deeper for American patriots to be proud of our country, and our endeavors to bring democracy to the World at large, and safety at home.

Well if Obama was so all seeing and knew this War was so bad from the beginning, why didn't he speak out then? Why did he act like McCellan, and wait until it was politically safe to do so?

Simple, exploitation. The wait and see policies which Obama claims as his experience and judgment will be the downfall of this great nation. If you think Katrina was a bad point in Bush's presidency because they waited and did not react, what happens when Obama waits first and does not have the experience and judgment to make a decision at 3AM in the morning. God help us if he answers the phone.

Rev Wright / Obama '08, WRONG for AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!

Well if Obama was so all seeing and knew this War was so bad from the beginning, why didn't he speak out then? Why did he act like McCellan, and wait until it was politically safe to do so?

http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

Rustydog...

Stupid or lying?

You decide.

Rustydog and his right wingnuts, WRONG for America (as proven by the last 8 years)...

Michael Ware seems to have a different perspective than KT's friend.

Yesterday, CNN’s Michael Ware dismissed Sen. John McCain’s (R-AZ) recent assertion that Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) travel to Iraq in order to get a better sense of the war. Ware said that U.S. officials’ trips to Iraq are usually “divorced from reality” adding that its “impossible” to “get much of a real picture.” Ware then noted that McCain’s own trips to Iraq have not helped him get a sense of the realities in Iraq:

WARE: I’ll issue a word of caution, too. I mean Senator McCain has been here, what, more than half a dozen times. And we’ve seen him get assessments of Iraq terribly wrong. So I wouldn’t be hanging my hat on the fact that your opponent has only been here once.

http://thinkprogress.org/

Paul Dirks - can it be a little bit of both?

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بلوتوث - -
مقاطع بلوتوث - -
يوتيوب - -
مقاطع يوتيوب - -
فديو يوتيوب - -
فيديو يوتيوب - -
افلام - -
موقع يوتيوب - -
youtube.com - -
يوتيوب عربي - -
منتديات - -
مسنجر - -
مدونة - -
العاب بنات - -
العاب باربي - -
Mzaeen’s Weblog - -
يوتيوب - فيديو - بلوتوث - -
تحميل افلام - -
تحميل افلام
تحميل افلام
افلام
افلام
مشاهده افلام
تحميل افلام - مشاهده افلام
افلام - تحميل افلام - مشاهده افلام
مركز تحميل - -
تحميل - -
تحميل صور - -
تحميل ملفات - -
مركز التحميل - -
صور - -
العاب لعب العب - -
لعب - -
العاب - -
لعب العب - -
hguf - -
العب - -
منتديات برامج نت - 70 - ثيمات -
خلفيات - العاب الجوال - ثيم رومنسي مهند ونور -
ثيم مهند وهو حاضن نور - ثيمات رومانسية للبنوتات -
ثيمات رومانسية بنات - ثيمات حب حلوة -
ثيم مهند التركي - ثيم نور -
ثيم حب نور ومهند - ثيم مسلسل لوست -
ثيمات افلام ومشاهير - ثيم نور ومهند -ثيمات لميس -
ثيمات مسلسل نور -ثيم مهند ونور -
ثيمات رومانسيه -ثيمات E61 -
ثيمات بنات رومنسيه -ثيم سنوات الضياع -
ثيمات طبيعية -ثيمات N92 -
ثيمات للبنات2008 -ثيمات N95 -
ثيمات نوكيا -ثيمات n80 -ثيمات n93 -
ثيمات اطفال -ثيمات منوعة -تصميم ثيمات -
ثيمات بنات -ثيمات طبيعة -ثيمات كرتون -
ثيمات بنات N73 -العاب نوكيا -
ثيمات رومنسية نوكيا - ثيمات الجيل الثالث -
23 - 23-p-3 - 23-p-6 -
نغمات -برامج نوكيا -برامج جوال -
برامج نوكيا N73 -نغمات -
برامج الجيل الثالث -العاب جوال -العاب نوكيا -
ثيمات2008 -نوكيا n95 -
نغمات ماجد المهندس -ماسنجر8 للجوال -الحارس الذكي n73 -نغمات عربي -نغمات MP3 -ماسنجر للجوال -65 - 65-p-3 -
65-p-5 -65-p-7 -رسائل جوال -مسجات -
رسايل وسائط -sms -
مسجات نصية -وسائط Mms -
صور وسائط -وسائط رومنسية -صور رومانسيه -
وسائط رومانسيه -مسجات شوق -وسائط بنات -رسائل حب -
وسائط حب -رسائل غرام -
وسائط حب رومانسية -وسائط شوق -وسائط حب وعشق -
وسائط حلوة -مسجات عتاب -
رسائل عتاب -مسجات نور ومهند -
مسجات وسائط -مسجات رومانسية -
وسائط حب رومانسية -مسجات اسلامية -
مسجات حب وغرام -رسائل غرام -
رسائل حب -مسجات حب -mms -وسائط ررومنسية روعة -رسائل مقالب -رسايل جديده -وسائط mms منوعة -
مسجات رومنسية -رسائل جوال -مسجات شعرية -وسائط دينية -مسجات استهبال -
مسجات حلوه -جميلات العرب -اليسا -
صور طبيعية -صور قلوب -
صور رومنسية -بلوتوث مزايين -
البوم صور مزايين - صور ماسنجر -
وسائط - صور حب -صور بنات -
صور بنات للمسن - العاب مكياج و ميك اب -
العاب ازياء - العاب مغامرات -
العاب بنات - العاب تلبيس بنات - العاب باربي -
العاب بلياردو - العب - العاب -

طرب وفن -طرب -فن -
10 -10-p-4 -
10-p-7 -10-p-13 -
10-p-10 -10-p-15 -10-p-20 -10-p-25 -
10-p-26 -فيديو كليب -فيديو كليب عربي -
فيديو كليب انجليزي -جميلات الهند -جميلات الاجانب -
صورة ميريام فارس -صوره شيماء علي -صور من كليب مهند ورولا -
فضايح مهند -فضائح -فضيحة مهند بطل مسلسل نور -صور نور -
صور منزل نور -صور ولادة نور في مسلسل نور التركي -
نجمة مسلسل نور التركي -صور Beren Saat خطيبة يحيى -صور يحيى -مهند شاذ -
اغاني سنوات الضياع -صور مهند ونور رومنسية -صور رومانسية نور ومهند -
صور مهند بطل مسلسل نور التركي -نهاية مسلسل نور -صور اليسا -
فيديو كليب تامر حسني - هي دي -العروسة فيديو كليب ماجد 2008 -صور فاردن وكارينا -
صور مي عز الدين 2008 -نيشان مقدم العراب -صور لميس -
صور لميس ويحيى -لحن اغنيه مسلسل سنوات الضياع -نؤاس اموري ياشمعتي -
صور بنت سعودية -صور اميشا -نجمة بوليوود -
صور لميس بطلة مسلسل سنوات الضياع -صور لميس نجمة سنوات الضياع -
سنوات الضياع -صور مهند بطل مسلسل نور -
يارا صدفة -تحبني ولا تحب الدراهم -
فضايح استار اكاديمي -هيفاء وهبي -
صور كاميرون دياز -احلام في العراب - البوم راشد و أحبابه -دومينك حوري الخاشوقة -
نانسي عجرم -فستان اليسا -
مركز تحميل - تحميل مفات -
تحميلت صور - تحميل -
صور - صور مضحكة -
باسكال مشعلاني -نانسي عجرم -
الين خلف -امل حجازي -
ديانا حداد -دارين حدشيتي -
ماري جوزي حنين -صور ديانا كرزون -
اريام -جميلات العرب -
مريام فارس -صور برق ورعد -
اليسا - صور طبيعية -
صور قلوب - صور رومنسية -
صور ماسنجر -وسائط -

صور بنات -صور بنات للمسن -
صور اشجار - صور حب -
صور شواطىء و بحار - صور سحـاب وغيوم -
صور أطفال - صور حيوانات -
صور إسلامية - صور منوعة -
صور خيول - صور متحركة -
صور رجالية للتصاميم - صور نسائية للتصاميم -
صور اطفال للتصاميم - صور شلالات وانهار -
صور قلوب - صور منوعة للتصاميم -
صور من تصويرك - صور وسائط MMS -
صور مرعبة - صور الأنمي -
صور رومنسية - صور دببة -
صور هدايا - صور سيارات -
صور خلفيات - صور ورد و زهور -
وسائط - صور شموع -
جميلات الاجانب - صور مسن كرتونية -
جوجو - اشلي سيمبسون -
هيلاري دوف - افرل لوفين -
جيسيكا البا - جورج كلوني -
جينيفر لوبيز - جينيفر آنستون - كرستينا اغوليرا -
ساندار بولوك - جوليا روبرتس -
آنجلينا جولي - تاركان -
برادبيت - توم كروز -
كيانو ريفز - مارك ولبرغ -
ريكي مارتن - انريكي ايجلاسيز -
جميلات الهند - صور حزينة -
صور الكاركتير - صور رجالية للتصاميم -
صور احترافية للتصاميم - صور تصاميم -
صور تصاميم وتواقيع - صور ماسنجر -
صور قلوب للمسن -صور مسن كتابية -
منوعات ماسنجر -صور مناسبات واسلاميات للمسن -
صور ايدي وارجل للمسن -صور اطفال مسن -
صور فنانين للماسنجر -صور بنات للمسن -
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المنتدى العام مواضيع ساخنة ومثيرة ترجمة
ازياء موضة فساتين
مكياج ميك اب اكسسوارات ديكور غرف نوم
اثاث طبخ مطبخ حلويات اكلات معجنات تغذية صحة طب
شعر قصايد خواطر عذب الكلام
قصص روايات طرب رجة مسابقات صرقعة صور بلوتوث و مقاطع فيديو بلوتوث العاب فلاش صور انمي افلام انمي عدسة التصوير
افلام عربية و مسلسلات مسلسلات اجنبية تلفزيونية افلام عربية و افلام اجنبية و مسلسلات تلفزيونية برامج كمبيوتر فوتوشوب ثيمات - العاب الجوال - خلفيات برامج نوكيا - نغمات - برامج جوال رسائل جوال - مسجات - رسايل وسائط - sms مسنجر - برامج ماسنجر - توبيكات دروس التصميم
ملحقات التصميم
بلوتوث
-
برامج نوكيا -كورة -صور -
مسنجر - طرب -
العاب -
قصص - مكياج - موضة
- ديكور
- وسائط
- برامج
-افلام -
مقاطع فيديو -
مواضيع ساخنة -ثيمات
جوال -نغمات -
افلام انمي -خواطر -
العاب جوال -افلام
عربية -ازياء - صور
انمي -
سياحة -مسلسلات اجنبية -
شعر -اناشيد -
توبيكات -رسائل
جوال -تصاميم
شات
شات الرياض
بنت حواء
بنت نجد
عروسة
عروس
العاب شمس
صور رومنسيه
صور جميلة
احلى رومانسيه
منتديات بيت حواء -
ازياء - -فساتين زفاف 2008 -
موضة -فساتين -
6 -6-p-4 -6-p-9 -6-p-12 -أجمل فساتين -
فساتين بنات -فساتين ناعمة -
بيجامات ناعمه -فساتين قصيرة -
قمصان نومفساتين -
ملابس ناعمه -بجامات بنوتات -
فستان زفاف -ملابس اطفال -أكسسوارات -
ملابس 2008 -أزياء صيفية -فساتين -موضة 2009 -
أزياء بنات حلوة 2008 -موضة 2008 -
كولكشن صيفي -فساتين سهرة 2008 -فساتين زفاف 2008 -
موديلات فساتين -فساتين سهرة 2008 -
فساتين روعة 2008 -شورتات -
ديور -عروس -أزياء بنوتيه -ازياء -
فساتين السهرة -قمصان النوم -بلايز -
ازياء خطيره -ازياء نواعم -
أزياء للحوامل -أزياء حوامل -
اكسسوارات -ميك اب -
مكياج -72 -72-p-3 -72-p-5 -
72-p-7 -72-p-9 -
قصات شعر 2008 -مكياج ناعم -صور سلاسل -
مكياج -MaKe Up -
تسريحه روعه -العروس -
دبل الخطوبة -ساعات -
نقوش حنه -صور مكياج -
مكياج بنات ناعم -احلى التسريحات -
احلى القصات -اسرار العطور -
صور ميك اب -صور مكياج -
ميك اب روعه -صيف 2008 -
ميك اب -صور تسريحات 2008 -
تسريحات شعر قصير -تسرحيات شعر طويل -
تسريحات وقصات شعر -تسريحات شعر -قصات شعر -
شنط ماركات -صور مكياج -
تسريحات 2008 -صور احلى مكياج -
مكياج عروس 2008 -أحزمة بنات -
بطاقات زواج -ميك اب ناعم -
مكياج للبنات 2008 -مكياج للبنات -احلى مكياج بنات -
مكياج بنات -ميك اب 2008 -
تسريحة العروس -تسريحات شعر -تسريحات عرايس -
احدث القصات -صبغات 2008 -نضارات شمسيه -
تسريحات -مناكير -
اكسسوارات للبنوتات -احذية كريستيان -
احذية ديور Dior -سلاسل قلوب -
ديكور -غرف نوم -اثاث -
73 --73-p-3 --73-p-5 -
غرف نوم -غرف نوم بنوتيه -ديكورات -غرف نوم وردي -اكسسوار حائط -ورق جدران -
كوشات عروسه -ديكورات ماء -
مطابخ روعة -