Generals for Sale, Slightly Used

The deeper question is whether the networks should have given so much time to ex-generals before the Iraq War even if they weren't being fed talking points from the Bush Administration.

Whether to go to war is a decision for society as a whole.

Damn, you make it hard for us to adopt a sarcastic attitude here when you do something good like this. This story is absolutely amazing.

You might want to link to Calderone's excellent piece about the media's deafening silence on this issue, too, btw.

Can we get some context? Surely this isn't the first time the Pentagon & gov't has lied to Americans about the wars they were conducting.

Jesus Christ, AMC.

How are media critics supposed to attack you for obsessing about trivia when you do such a damned fine job with this sort of reporting? These folks have families to feed, too, you know!

Please, have a heart, and go back to the well of dissecting Wolfson's spin (to Andrea Mitchell's superbly irrelevant questions) for more unquestionable evidence of Hillary Clinton's character flaws.

What we should be talking about and recognizing is the valiant efforts, dedication and compassion of Gen Bud Day, the most decorated service man in our time. He was the cell mate of John McCain, and to hear him talk about the ordeal that the both of them were put through, the torture, the degrading way they were made to live is unbelievable.

Obama can lay no claim to this type of experience, ever. Obama cannot show this level of dedication to his people, his fellow GIs or this country.

Further disparaging remarks made about John McCain from the Swampland rats from the far left will meet equal extreme disparaging remarks from this swampland blogger.

What this country and its citizens need at this time is simply respect. Respect is first earned, when you demonstrate the level of respect for those like John McCain, who have already given so very much to this country. Cry as you may for your liberal extremism, but America WILL see what John McCain's interests are for this country and its citizens. John McCain WILL bring back the level of pride we so desparately need for our future, and the future of our children.

John McCain is the type of role-model any parent would be proud to have their son or daughter emulate. It isn't the character of Rev Wright, that Barak Obama has chosen as his role model.

Rev Wright / Obama '08, WRONG for AMERIACA!!!!!!!!!!

I know the generals (at least the ones on active duty) must follow the orders of the civilian leadership but, uh, does anybody from the military ever speak out of turn? Or do you get to the top of the armed forces by brown-nosing and kissing ass? Recent experience leads me to believe the Yes-man mentality of the Bush Administration permeates the higher ranks. Really hope I'm wrong.

"Can we get some context? Surely this isn't the first time the Pentagon & gov't has lied to Americans about the wars they were conducting."

Detailing all the lies of the Pentagon would be too time consuming...how about detailing all the times they were honest?

AMC - Thank you for keeping up on this one.

From a media criticism point of view, I would like to see a few questions asked of the producers and editors of the shows that relied so heavily on these tainted generals. I want to know the procedures used for choosing them and the contracts signed to get them on the air. I want to know if the shows have any kind of standards for disclosure or conflict of interests. I want the producers to explain to me why they were so easily duped into allowing their broadcasts to be used for government psy/ops.

It is very clear to me that the media has been circling its wagons on this one with the hopes that it will blow over. They are stuck with this archaic notion that if they were to lift the curtain of their anchors' authority that people will no longer tune into the broadcast. What they do not realize is that the game has changed and if they do not open themselves up for scrutiny, criticism and reform then they will continue to become irrelevant.

Keep in mind that when I say 'media' I am not picking on you, Ana Marie. For your part you have een very upfront with your feelings for the candidates you cover and although I disagree with you on the effect those feelings have on your coverage, I appreciate knowing so that I can weigh your reports appropriately. In your case, you handled disclosure very well.

Um, Rustydog, I think you posted to the wrong thread. Either that or you are attempting to distract the conversation with a strange non sequitor.

The former flag officers that disliked Rumsfeld largely had their opportunities to vent while still active.

That they did not makes them not only less than honorable, but basically useless, to anyone.

So what does the limpwicked DC press again do?

Navel gaze, and wax for Waxman.

Move On.

Dear Regulars,

I'm a long-time lurker, very occasional commenter, but I've been away for a while. In 50 words or less, can someone explain Rustydog to me? He's too verbose to be a T4T clone and too lucid to be QH/Obamish, so is this just an elaborate act or a new troll?

Thanks, and sorry for being off-topic.

"I know the generals (at least the ones on active duty) must follow the orders of the civilian leadership but, uh, does anybody from the military ever speak out of turn?"

Sure they do.

That does not mean the SecDef is going to accept their view.

We're not Russia, and never will be.

For clues, read Grant's memoirs.

Even Clinton did.

The press worrying about elder West Pointers getting better access to the DOD news cycle than the DNC dogs dredging GOTCHAs by the Blame America 1sters infesting the Pentagon press corps?

Priceless.

This is another example of the never-talked-about part of Clinton's presidential legacy. When President Clinton drastically reduced the size of the armed forces after the Cold War, he did so as someone who had never served or been remotely involved with the military before. The drawdown was done very, very quickly, and it was done largely on the basis of "zero tolerance".

That is, if you had any kind of blemish or error or problem on your record, you got passed over or booted. (being passed over for promotion is just a slower way to kick an officer out of the military, if you miss board X number of times, welcome to forced retirement)

This policy, which looks good on the surface (yay! only people with perfect records getting promoted!) was actually devastating to the military because paperwork gnomes, fobbits, and butt-kissers were now disproportionately favored by the promotion process. I remember getting one of the "new breed" of post cold war commanders. I also remember his advice to lieutenants that wanted to make captain fast as being, and I quote, "keep your nose clean".

Too much peacetime will infest any army with bureaucrats and posers who think war is cool. The way in which President Clinton directed, or allowed the military to be reduced during the 1990's, and the atrocious conduct of the administration in Somalia served to drastically weaken our command structure at a significantly faster rate than would have otherwise occurred.

In other words, if you want to know why so many of the top generals today are and were so quick to cave in to leadership they knew was wrong, it's because the "go along, get along" crowd was disproportionately favored by the promotion policies of the 1990's.

Cubiclewarrior:
TomT has a theory that Rustydog is actually a liberal, lampooning a conservative. I'm starting to agree, no one can be that dumb and know how to type.

As usual the liberal SNOBamaBOTS, once they are confronted and exposed for their irrational and totally absurd ideas resort to 3rd grade playground name calling.

If it truly makes you feel all liberally warm and fuzzy inside, please be my guest and continue.

People like TomT, 53_2, and now Sean De, not to mention cliff are one in the same. Liberal lunatics, who make QH and Obamish look like amateurs for the most far left, ready to fall off the edge extremists.

Play on little boys, one day you may grow up, maybe.

I do not write to please or attempt to persuade anyone of you. My only hope that anyone who DOES have any common sense, let alone intelligence are able to see another more rational point of view.

The appeasing, troop bashing Obamites assume our active and retired military must be sheep or liars or both, being successful in the dirty world of war if not politics?

Not news.

Now if we can just get Coxnet to count the dead from Harkin's eco-war on food.

Sean DeCoursey

Clixon was just trying to emulate the Hollow Army concept introduced so brilliantly by Jimmy I LOVE ALLAH Carter.

= SOMALIA NOT ACCOMPLISHED =

Rustydog, no one can engage you in a meaningful conversation long enough to figure out how intelligent you might actually be.

Also, when you use words like SNOBamaBOTS and use ten exclamation points in a row, I take that as a sign of either a mental handicap or spoofery.

Also, do you really think QH and obamish are different people? Really?

Cliff, only because you do ask, this one time I will reply specifically to your statement, no one can engage you in a meaningful conversation long enough to figure out how intelligent you might actually be.

Unfortunately you have not read blogging engagements I have had with some of the more civil and sane, liberal bloggers of this site. But, more than 90% of the time, as evidenced by your comments back to Sean De, they resort to the 3rd grade playground name calling I referred to earlier.

As I said, I am not here to argue with you, or refute your rediculous posts. My desire and purpose is to show another view point, to the overall blog articles written and the comments subsequently made.

AMC, I just wanted to point you to a comment I posted on your diavlog post from 5/7.

That was a good dialog with Robert Wright. He is much easier to take that Greenwald, I'm sure. The respectful allowed me better hear your arguments about McCain and the media. Hell, I'll just copy too long comment here.

Rustydog

Harvard still hates America. They've just branched out to Howard U., in Time for the Obama replay of the Carter years.

You have to remember that the tenured libs will bash the troops first, last, always -- no matter the cause, fray, or feast (excluding the carpet bombing of Christians in Kosovo to appease Monica). If spitting on officers (active or retired)? Even better!

Hell, what else IS they got?

It ain't patriotism or peace, that IS fer sher.

As soon as we're done in Iraq and Iran, they'll be screaming about the injustice of freeing people in Afghanistan and Lebanon.

They're more concerned with scoring cheap TV points than military victory, always have been, and always will be.

But you knew that.

"Unfortunately you have not read blogging engagements I have had with some of the more civil and sane, liberal bloggers of this site."

I read most of the comments on this blog, and 90% of the time when people start poking holes in your arguments you vanish like a ninja. Do you engage them in debates elsewhere?

"evidenced by your comments back to Sean De"

Check again, my comment was to Cubiclewarrior. A minor point, except that it shows poor reading comprehension along with a horrific grasp of English.

Your desire and purpose is very plainly to derail the conversations here. Schoolchildren can refute your point of view.

(repost with edits for clarity)

AMC:

The discussion about McCain was very helpful. Thanks for getting into it yet again and better explaining your position on McCain.

I've been posting questions to try to understand to what extent you were on "Team McCain". I've never really cared if you were biased or not, but I felt I needed to know to what extent, and also whether you were being forthright in detailing your bias. Because of what seemed to me a lack of clarity, I couldn't tell if you were...well I just couldn't trust you.

Now, with the points you make in the video, I think I am at ease with your position and reporting on McCain. You make a few key points, which I'll try to paraphrase and explain how they clear things up for me:

* You not sure you'll necessarily vote for him. (So, my fears you were simply a McCain operative and I had either missed your revelation of that, or you had simply not revealed that fact, were unfounded.)

* You personally find him likable and not your typical sleazy politician. (So, the comparison you are making in the video is modest. You don't call him a "towering figure, incredibly appealing politically, who I want as president." It was unclear to me before to what extent he was likable to you, personally or politically.)

* You clearly spell out your theory on access. You seem to argue that the access McCain provides allows for longer, maybe ongoing, discussions on issues. Those longer discussions provide more context and more quote material when reporting on him. That context, quote material, AND his personal likability make it less likely for you to use gotcha quotes on him, and more likely to explain to your readers the context and true meaning McCain intended. (Well, if this was your argument, you should have said that all along! ;) Seriously, this is reasonable, because the end result is less gotchas/distortions and more info, and that helps all voters. Compare this to what the frakking reporters did to Gore in 2000! I don't think Democrats expect reporters to take out McCain the way they took out Gore, so I think we can live with this. And you must agree, don't you, that Obama and voters deserve the same treatment in coverage of Obama.)

* You argue that Obama would benefit from giving more access, more quotes, thus providing more context and resulting in less gotcha reporting. That voters and democracy would also benefit from the positive results of that greater access, as well. (I absolutely agree. BOTH Obama and McCain, and voters of course, deserve the benefit of honest context and reporting.)

AMC, I think I now get your reporting/blogging values, and I can live with them! Even when it comes to McCain! You are basically arguing for the opposite of what happened to Gore with the gotcha reporting and deliberate media twisting of his words into the worst possible, contextually dishonest light. Am I getting that right?

Can I make a suggestion? Maybe you already do this, and I'm missing it or not getting it, but instead of making it about McCain, make your arguments about access and reporting about both Obama and McCain. Make the argument that you WANT to give Obama the same benefit of the doubt and just need the access/context to do so.

Also, if you don't like Obama for whatever reason or traits, then be honest about that. Sure you like McCain, at least your honest about that. And I assume you would argue that you could still give Obama honest reporting given sufficient access. But, it would help us to know your personal feelings when judging what weight to give your reporting on him.

Before your dialogue with Robert Wright, I don't think it had been at all clear to me that you would have been willing to give anyone but McCain the "special relationship with the media" that he gets. At times it has sounded that McCain "deserved it" and no other politician did. Well, that was a problem. If democracy is what you are arguing for, and you can argue that all politicians should receive fair reporting, then great.

Personally, I think the key difference is between gotcha reporting and contextually fair reporting. The treatment of Gore is the worst kind of precedent, I think. Maybe the McCain case is a good example of the latter. Voters deserve contextually fair coverage of both candidates, not just McCain, right?

RustyDog and QUESTION HILLARY: If you guys "love" America so much, can I offer you a ride to your nearest recruiting station?

So sorry to disappoint Cookie Puss, but I have served my time in the military, and no longer of the age they will consider me anymore. :(

Otherwise I would be right there beside them, step by step.

And Cliff, you just proved my point earlier of the liberal 3rd graders, shouting out their playground names. End of story, next!

Rustydog,

I'm honestly curious here, I wrote a post trashing President Clinton's military policies and their highly unfortunate aftereffects today and that leads to you calling me a liberal lunatic? I'm totally at a loss on the connection. Please explain, seriously, I'd love to hear how that one works.

Sean, I did make a mistake, which I will own up to here using your name, when I meant CubicleWarrior. I apologize, actually I did like what you wrote, for the most part. Maybe that is why your name stuck in my head. Haha. Sorry again, what you wrote about Clinton is dead on.

Having been in the military, there are those who are total "yes" men, but there are also many more who are boldly dedicated to our freedom and liberty. Making all inclusive statements, is wrong and the part I disagree with you on.

And while I am apologizing for mistakes, I said "Gen" Bud Day, when in fact he is a retired Col.

Rustydog,
Do you really think QH and Obamish are the same people?
Do you really want to teach Obama to go back to the homeland of his father? (He actually posted this in a previous thread:
"I'd like to teach him how to leave the country and go to his father's land in Africa!!" May 5th, 2008, at 6:45 pm
http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/05/political_flashback_the_gasoli.html#comments)

Are you aware of how similar that sounds to statements made by the KKK? Does that bother you at all, in any way?

Why did you mention Col. Bud Day? What does he have to do with AMC's post?

These kind of threads are not complete without Rusty and QH. I don't know if they're sincere or they're liberals making an Andy Kaufman-like point about conservatives. But, either way, they make our points more convincingly than we could without them. And for that we owe them thanks.

How ironic is it that Jay is willing to toss off:many of you think "admired journalist" is a contradiction in terms. when you, 2 posts later, AMC puts up a thoughtful article on just how dangerous, harmful and ultimately deadly it is to not have a functioning press in this Country.

AMC:
Please explain to Jay, that we don't hate journalists. It's that we're trusting them to do vital work and they're failing at it miserably and the entire Country is suffering as a result.....

Posted by Cliff | May 8, 2008 10:25 PM
Rustydog,
1. Do you really think QH and Obamish are the same people?
Since I do not have access to records from Time to show who really is who posting on this blog site, how could I ever be expected to make such and assumption? Is TomT really StewieZ? Is JJ really jayackrod? Seems funny to me that JJ and jayackrod both have very very similar web sites they reference to for further information about themselves. Coincidental? I think not.

2. Do you really want to teach Obama to go back to the homeland of his father?
I believe in the context that I posted what some people in America do believe about Obama's patriotism. His inability to put his hand over his heart, but rather his genitals when the National Anthem is played. His inability to demonstrate his patriotism and loyalty to this country by wearing a flag pin. Both to you may sound trite and insignificant. However, I do not. As many Americans also do not believe Obama's snub of our flag is appropriate for someone looking to hold the highest office in the land. The reference to go back to Africa, is purely meant to say "if you do not love it, leave it pal".

3. Are you aware of how similar that sounds to statements made by the KKK? Does that bother you at all, in any way?
Does not bother me in anyway, because I have not in any way associated myself with the KKK. Those statements are yours Cliff, and typical of Obama supporters to use the race card to deflect any type of critique of your candidate when you have nothing else to defend his actions with.

4. Why did you mention Col. Bud Day? What does he have to do with AMC's post?
This reference to a truely American Hero, like John McCain should be the focus on a Time story, rather than the rantings from a TV program by retired Generals, also known as so called military strategists. Anyone with half a brain will know that propaganda has always been part of any country's justification of any action on the part of the military or leadership within its Government. But, I know Obama supporters blindly believe that Obama is as pure as the driven snow, and would never resort to such propaganda, not even in this current primary campaign. BULL CRAP!

Since John McCain does not want to talk about his heroism, I will attempt to do it for him, although inadequately on my part on this blog site.

without Rusty and QH. I don't know if they're sincere

Rusty is a small-town inhabitant who listens to Rush and sincerely beleives that an Obama Presidency would be a problem because he reflexively thinks of Blacks as foreigners.

QH on the other hand simply thinks it's amusing to celebrate torture and mass death. He/She/It is a truly sick puppy who fits the caricature that real terrorists form in their head while imagining why their victims deserve their fate.

"QH on the other hand simply thinks it's amusing to celebrate torture and mass death. He/She/It is a truly sick puppy who fits the caricature that real terrorists form in their head while imagining why their victims deserve their fate."

ISn't you late for your shift at the Free Clinic?

If you must abort your brains in public, at least take a few of the hippiechicklet Berzerkley babes on this board with you.

Californica needs the space, and Cyrus Vance needs the company.

Just for a moment, back to the theme of the AMC's fine post. About 2 years ago, one of the generals tasked with Iraq war planning gave an interview to his local paper (I believe it was the Hampton Roads Daily Press). He described his group's efforts to develop a Phase IV plan, the post war planning that should be standard procedure. He described how Rumsfield told them not to develop a Phase IV plan, and when they persisted he told them the next person to bring it up would be fired. This general chose to talk about this on the occasion of his retirement from the military. Links to the original story and a companion piece by Kevin drum:
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/64/22388

Yes, it might have been better if all of the officers who saw the problems had spoken up at the time, but then all of those officers would have been fired, leaving only Rummy sycophants.

wvng - Your example seems to build on Sean DeCoursey's indictment of the Clinton administration. But, whereas Sean does not provide any links to back up his opinions, you are able to substantiate that the Bush administration is as guilty as of the transgressions for which he blames the Clinton administration. If people want to blame Clinton for everything then that is their prerogative but it is worth remembering that everybody was on board with the "peace dividend" line of thinking. The Republican congress was very much in the business of cutting military budgets and programs.

It is also worth mentioning that there is a strange bit of cognitive dissonance in the views of QH/obamish/Rustydog wrt the use of decorated retired members of the military in psy/ops programs. He is critical of the generals (a view that I share) but forgiving of the administration that designed the strategy and mechanisms for using the generals to lie to the public. Then excuses the administration's behavior as something that has always gone on. And then he spares no insult in defending the administration line that he acknowledges is very likely false.

Nice post. It really is amazing that, with the exception of a couple of mentions by PBS, not of the networks have covered this major story yet. Their strategy seems to be to ignore it and hope it goes away. As a political wag once said, "If it didn't happen on television, it didn't happen". I dunno, I'd like to think that won't work this time. The story broke (or rather the latest details broke) on the front page of the Times, the Pentagon is taking this seriously, Congressmen are on the case, the lowly blogosphere is on the case. And don't forget the networks are carrying water on this one for the most unpopular President in the history of polling. Given all that, can they really hope to squelch this story?

It is very sad, but it appears that the upper echelons of our Military are being forced to compromise. You can read articles from retired Lt. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0310-09.htm and Gen Batiste: http://www.democracynow.org/2007/5/25/somebody_had_to_speak_out_if to see it very clearly. Dissent is ignored, acquiescence is rewarded; you can accept it (and further your career) or quit. This same dynamic is applied here, ie. access is granted to military analysts that tow the line.

Can we get some context? Surely this isn't the first time the Pentagon & gov't has lied to Americans about the wars they were conducting.

To get back to Acid J.’s question: I think it’s well understood that serving members of the military cannot act in a manner that is detrimental to the policy and plans of their superiors. So, when speaking to the public (though the media) a general is understood to be speaking “as a member of the military” and not necessarily as an individual. That is there is an open understanding that their statements are somewhat filtered or bias. (And I do not use that in a negative manner, just as a classification.) Retired members of the military are presumed to be acting as individuals not as a representative of the Armed Forces. However, the recent revelations seem to indicate that the Pentagon and Whitehouse administration have acted in a manner to exploit this “common wisdom” to feed the official policy into a manner that would bypass that understanding of enforced filtering.

So, I would agree that in the past the government has actively put force a specific message in support of their actions, but this seems to be a new case of the government doing so using a back-channel that hides the actual source of the message.

BMB "Dissent is ignored." No, dissent is actively punished. And remember that the propaganda campaign was designed specifically to defuse statements by patriots like General Batiste, who resigned so he could speak openly. And the msm largely chose to ignore the men like General Batiste, who served on the line in Iraq, in favor of Rummy sycophants.

And continuing on Terrapinion's "peace dividend" line of thinking point, many of the military budget cuts began under Poppy Bush. There is plenty of blame to go around, if blame is actually the correct term, on the post cold war decision to reduce military funding. "If people want to blame Clinton for everything then that is their prerogative" - well, no. There is a clear historical record on what happened when.

@Rustydog:
See how great it is to have a civil, reasonable discussion?

I still think the Bud Day thing is...weird, to say the least. Bud Day hasn't been in the news, and he's only tangentially related to McCain. TIME is nominally a news magazine, so they like to stick to things that are somewhat current.

"Anyone with half a brain will know that propaganda has always been part of any country's justification of any action on the part of the military or leadership within its Government."

That doesn't mean we shouldn't question it, or shouldn't demand accountability from our media for dispensing propaganda. Also, propaganda is AFAIK typically used on the enemy. Does the Pentagon regard us as enemies?
Also, providing a justification does not necessarily mean exonerating all of the military's actions.

"But, I know Obama supporters blindly believe that Obama is as pure as the driven snow, and would never resort to such propaganda, not even in this current primary campaign. BULL CRAP!"

Again, this shows you don't pay attention. Who here says that? Nobody on Swampland thinks Obama is flawless. For instance, I don't like what Rose and TKopec have to say about Obama's campaign, but I can't dismiss their statements out of hand - Obama is a politician and he (or his followers) are bound to engage in underhanded tactics at some point.
You, on the other hand, apparently refuse to admit to any flaws on the part of McCain, which is hugely unreasonable.

Terrapinion,

The problem with Clinton's administration wasn't that they cut the military, it was the way they did it. The methodology used to reduce troop strength was extremely flawed and helped to create the environment that made it so easy for Rumsfeld to steamroll the military like he did. The firing of Gen. Shinseki for telling congress we needed 250,000 troops should not have been enough by itself to completely cow the rest of the generals into blindly following Rumsfeld. But it was, largely because of the shift in military culture that had come about due to the methods the Clinton administration used to cut the military. (not that go-along get-along suckups are new to the military, but they got a lot more pronounced during the 1990's)

I'm not saying the generals should have disobeyed orders, but a lot more of them could have told congress the truth instead of toeing the DoD line. A couple having the intestinal fortitude to resign in the face of criminally incompetent orders would have been nice too.

To elaborate on SpotWeld's point,

When in uniform any soldier is restricted in their freedom of speech because they are assumed by most civilians they encounter to be speaking on behalf of the military. When out of uniform soldiers can say pretty much whatever they want as long as they don't try to say they're speaking on behalf of the military.

Sean DeCoursey - You wrote: "When out of uniform soldiers can say pretty much whatever they want as long as they don't try to say they're speaking on behalf of the military."

These out-of-uniform soldiers were saying exactly what they wanted - they wanted to maintain the DoD contracts that their lobbying firms had won. These men were not 'cowed' by some strong-willed cult of personality. They were extorted by an administration that was so immoral that they would threaten to withdraw the lucrative contracts if the retired generals did not become sock-puppets for the party line. I never proposed that Shinseki's firing was the cause of the problem.

I agree with you that true men of honor would have either spoken up or retired in protest. And if you want to blame the Clinton administration for the way that he downsized the military after the Cold War for the lack of honor in the current crop of military men then that is your right - I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. It just seems a little too simple and convenient to place this entirely at his feet.

I don't get the sense that Sean is placing everything at Clinton's feet. It looks to me like he's trying to explain why so many high ranking officers, men are are ideally strong, clear minded, and responsible, rolled over for the Bush Administration.

Nothing in his posts exonerates Bush; rather his posts explain why our generals are so pliable to inept civilian command.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1739053,00.html

Why is TIME hawking for yet another war?

عقارات السعودية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد السعودية بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات الأمارات عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد الأمارات بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات مصر عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد مصر بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات الكويت عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد الكويت بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارت عمان عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد عمان بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات قطر عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد قطر بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات البحرين عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد البحرين بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات الأردن عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد الأردن بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات لبنان عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد لبنان بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات المغرب عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد المغرب بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات سوريا عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار في بلد سوريا بجميع المدن بها عقار نت
عقارات مدينة الرياض عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار مدينة الرياض
عقارات محافظة الخرج عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار محافظة الخرج
عقارات المحافظات الأخري التابعة لمدينة الرياض عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار المحافظات الأخري التابعه لمدينه الرياض
عقارات مكة المكرمة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات مكة المكرمة
عقارات المحافظات الأخري التابعة لمنطقة مكة المكرمة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات المحافظات التابعة لمنطقة مكة المكرمة
عقارات المدينة المنورة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات المدينة المنورة
عقارات مدينة ينبع عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات مدينة ينبع
عقارات محافظة الطائف عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الطائف
عقارات المحافظات الأخري التابعة لمنطقة المدينة المنورة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات المحافظات الأخري التابعة لمنطقه المدينة المنورة
عقارات مدينة الدمام عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات مدينة الدمام
عقارات محافظة الخبر عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الخبر
عقارات محافظة الأحساء عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الأحساء
عقارات المحافظات الأخري التابعة للمنطقة الشرقية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات المحافظات الأخري التابعة للمنطقة الشرقية
عقارات منطقة القصيم عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة القصيم
عقارات منطقة عسير عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة عسير
عقارات منطقة حائل عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة حائل
عقارات منطقة تبوك عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة تبوك
عقارات منطقة الباحة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة الباحة
عقارات منطقة الحدود الشمالية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة الحدود الشمالية
عقارات منطقة الجوف عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة الجوف
عقارات منطقة جازان عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة جازان
عقارات منطقة نجران عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات منطقة نجران
عقارات ابو ظبي عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات ابو ظبي
عقارات العين عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات العين
عقارات المناطق التابعة لأمارة ابو ظبي عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات المناطق التابعة لأمارة ابو ظبي
عقارات دبي عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات دبي
عقارات جبل علي عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات جبل علي
عقارات المناطق الأخري التابعة لأمارة دبي عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات المناطق التابعة لأمارة دبي
عقارات الشارقة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات الشارقة
عقارات الذيد عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات الذيد
عقارات مناطق تابعة لأمارة الشارقة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات مناطق تابعة لأمارة الشارقة
عقارات امارة رأس الخيمة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات امارة رأس الخيمة
عقارات امارة عجمان عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات امارة عجمان
عقارات ام القيوين عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات ام القيوين
عقارات إمارة الفجيرة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات إمارة الفجيرة
عقارات محافظة الجيزة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الجيزة
عقارات محافظة القاهرة عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة القاهرة
عقارات محافظة الأسكندرية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الأسكندرية
عقارات الساحل الشمالي عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات الساحل الشمالي
عقارات محافظة السويس عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة السويس
عقارات محافظة 6اكتوبر عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة 6اكتوبر
عقارات محافظة الأسماعيلية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الأسماعيلية
عقارات محافظة دمياط عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة دمياط
عقارات محافظة الدقهلية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الدقهلية
عقارات محافظة الشرقية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الشرقية
عقارات محافظة القليوبية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة القليوبية
عقارات محافظة كفر الشيخ عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة كفر الشيخ
عقارات محافظة الغربية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الغربية
عقارات محافظة المنوفية عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة المنوفية
عقارات محافظة قنا عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة قنا
عقارات محافظة المنيا عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة المنيا
عقارات محافظة الفيوم عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الفيوم
عقارات محافظة شمال سيناء عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة شمال سيناء
عقارات محافظة مطروح عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة مطروح
عقارات محافظة الوادي الجديد عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة الوادي الجديد
عقارات محافظة جنوب سيناء عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة جنوب سيناء
عقارات محافظة اسوان عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة اسوان
عقارات محافظة البحر الأحمر عقارات شقق ومحلات واراضي ومكاتب بيع وشراء وايجار عقارات محافظة البحر الأحمر

بلوتوث - -
مقاطع بلوتوث - -
يوتيوب - -
مقاطع يوتيوب - -
فديو يوتيوب - -
فيديو يوتيوب - -
افلام - -
موقع يوتيوب - -
youtube.com - -
يوتيوب عربي - -
منتديات - -
مسنجر - -
مدونة - -
العاب بنات - -
العاب باربي - -
Mzaeen’s Weblog - -
يوتيوب - فيديو - بلوتوث - -
تحميل افلام - -
تحميل افلام
تحميل افلام
افلام
افلام
مشاهده افلام
تحميل افلام - مشاهده افلام
افلام - تحميل افلام - مشاهده افلام
مركز تحميل - -
تحميل - -
تحميل صور - -
تحميل ملفات - -
مركز التحميل - -
صور - -
العاب لعب العب - -
لعب - -
العاب - -
لعب العب - -
hguf - -
العب - -
67 - - -p-2 - - افلام انمي - - صور انمي - -
صور الأنمي - - خلفيات انمي - - انمي بنات حزينة - -
صور بنات انمي - - انمي بنات رومنسية - -
انمي حزينة - - صور بنات انمي - - اجمل بنات انمي - -
زفاف انمي - - زفاف عرايس - - انمي اطفال - -
بنات انمي رومنسي - - صور انمي حزينه - - صور الجاسوسات - -
صور انمي 2008 - - صور بنات حلوات - -
شباب انمي - - صور انمي - -
صور احلى بنات - - بنات انمي رومنسي - -
انمي رومنسي - - انمي رومنسي حلوة - -
صور انمي احضان - - افلام كرتون - - افلام انمي - -
انمي خليجي - - مسلسلات كرتون - - افلام انمي - - صور انمي - - 68 - -
68-p-2 - - سياحة وسفر - -
سياحة - -سفر - -فنادق - -
46 - -46-p-3 - -46-p-6 - -
ناطحات سحاب - -أفضل 10 مدن - -
مدينة الحب الفرنسيه - -فندق الحب - -
صور - -24 - -34-p-3 - -
34-p-6 - - - -34-p-13 - -
34-p-15 - -34-p-20 - -
34-p-25 - -34-p-29 - -
34-p-30 - -34-p-35 - -34-p-38 - -
34-p-40 - -صور جيملات العرب - -صور طبيعية - -صور متحركة - -صور بنات - -صور رومنسية - -صور اطفال - -صور رومانسية - -
صور قلوب - -صور قلوب حب - -
صور قلوب رومانسية - -ورود وزهور - -
زهور - -صورة الغروب - -
سوالف بنات - -صور حب - -صور حب رومانسية - -
صور حب 2008 - -صور قلوب - -
قلوب روعة - -صور قلوب رومانسية - -
صور حزينة - -صور متحركة - -
صور متحركه منوعة - -صور حب - -
صور خلفيات - -خلفيات رومانسية - -
صور انهار - -صور شلالات - -
صور مصرقعه - -جنس ثالث - -
صور جنس ثالث - -صور حزينة - -
صور شلالات وانهار - -صور جميلة - -صور غريبه - -
صور رومنسية - -صورطبيعة - -صور السعودية - -
صور الورد - -صور وتعليقات - -صور مضحكة - -
شموع - -صور حلوة - -
احلى عروس - -صور رعب - -24 - -24-p-3 - -
24-p-5 - -24-p-8 - -فوتوشوب - -
تصاميم - -صور تصاميم - - صور تصاميم رومانسية - -
صور قلوب - -صور تصميم - -صور تصميم رومنسية - -
صور عيون - -صور دباديب - -بطاقات رومانسية - -
صور تصميم شباب - -صور بنات للتصاميم - -صور بنات - -
صور رومانسيه حزينه - -صور نسائية - -صور نسائية روعة - -
صور رجال - -صور احترافية - -59 - -
58 - -ملحقات التصميم - -دروس التصميم - -
جميلات العرب - -اليسا - -
صور طبيعية - -صور قلوب - -
صور رومنسية - -بلوتوث مزايين - - البوم صور مزايين - -
صور ماسنجر - -وسائط - -
صور حب - -صور بنات - -صور بنات للمسن - -
العاب مكياج و ميك اب - - العاب ازياء - - العاب مغامرات - -
العاب بنات - - العاب تلبيس بنات - - العاب باربي - -
العاب بلياردو - - العب - - العاب - -

1 - -2 - -3 - -4 - -5 - -6 - -7 - -
13 - -14 - -8 - -15 - -10 - -21 - -30 - -
17 - -16 - -23 - -20 - -25 - -24 - -27 - -
26 - -29 - -28 - -31 - -32 - -33 - -34 - -
37 - -38 - -35 - -36 - -39 - -40 - -41 - -
42 - -43 - -44 - -45 - -46 - -47 - -58 - -
53 - -54 - -48 - -55 - -56 - -49 - -57 - -
50 - -59 - -60 - -51 - -61 - -62 - -52 - -
11 - -12 - -63 - -64 - -
المنتدى العام - - مواضيع ساخنة ومثيرة - - ترجمة - -
ازياء - - موضة - - فساتين - -
مكياج - - ميك اب - - اكسسوارات - - ديكور - - غرف نوم - -
اثاث - - طبخ - - مطبخ - - حلويات - - اكلات - - معجنات - - تغذية - - صحة - - طب - -
شعر - - قصايد - - خواطر - - عذب الكلام - -
قصص - - روايات - - طرب - - رجة - - مسابقات - - صرقعة - - صور - - بلوتوث و مقاطع فيديو - - بلوتوث - - العاب فلاش - - صور انمي - - افلام انمي - - عدسة التصوير - -
افلام عربية و مسلسلات - - مسلسلات اجنبية تلفزيونية - - افلام عربية و افلام اجنبية و مسلسلات تلفزيونية - - برامج كمبيوتر - - فوتوشوب - - ثيمات - العاب الجوال - خلفيات - - برامج نوكيا - نغمات - برامج جوال - - رسائل جوال - مسجات - رسايل وسائط - sms - - مسنجر - برامج ماسنجر - توبيكات - - دروس التصميم - -
ملحقات التصميم - - بلوتوث - -
-
برامج نوكيا - - -كورة - - -صور - - -
مسنجر - - - طرب - - -
العاب - - -
قصص - - - مكياج - - - موضة - -
- ديكور - -
- وسائط - -
- برامج - -
-افلام - - -
مقاطع فيديو - - -
مواضيع ساخنة - - -ثيمات
جوال - - -نغمات - - -
افلام انمي - - -خواطر - - -
العاب جوال - - -افلام
عربية - - -ازياء - - - صور
انمي - - -
سياحة - - -مسلسلات اجنبية - - -
شعر - - -اناشيد - - -
توبيكات - - -رسائل
جوال - --تصاميم -
شات
شات الرياض
بنت حواء
بنت نجد
عروسة
عروس
العاب شمس
صور رومنسيه
صور جميلة
احلى رومانسيه
صور رومنسيه
صور جميلة
احلى رومانسيه
67
-p-2
توبيكات
مسنجر
برامج ماسنجر
توبيكات ملونة
- توبيكات -
توبيك -
صور ماسنجر -
مقالب للماسنجر
- ماسنجر بلس
- صور قلوب ماسنجر
- صور ماسنجر
رومنسيه - صور
للماسنجر -
أحلى توبيكات -
رموز للماسنجر
- توبيكات ملونه
- ثيمات ماسنجر
- توبيكات توبيك
- توبيكات رومنسية
- توبيكات اغاني
- صور بنات
للمسن - صور
بنوتيه - صور
مسنجر -
توبيكات حب -
توبيكات حب وغرام -
توبيكات ملونه
للمسن - صور
بنات للماسنجر 2008 -
توبيكات شعر -
صور مسنجر اطفال
- توبيكات مصرقعة
- زخارف مسنجر
- سكربتات
للماسنجر -
اختصارات للماسنجر -
كلمات للمسن -
توبيكات مسلسل
سنوات الضياع -
صور مهند ونور
للمسن -
توبيكات روعة -
توبيكات رومانسية
ملونة - احلى
توبيكات للمسن -
توبيكات حزينة
- توبيكات
رومانسية ملونه مع صور -
صور قلوب رومانسية
للمسن - صور
بنات للمسن -
صور بنوتات للماسنجركلمات رومنسية عبارات رومانسية للمسن
بنات للمسن msn صور بنات رومنسية للمسن عذاب وحب للمسن توبيكات خيانة صور اليسا للمسنجر
صور فنانين للماسنجر احلى توبيكات رومنسية توبيكات روعة
جميلات العرب
اليسا
صور طبيعية
صور قلوب
صور رومنسية
بلوتوث مزايين
البوم صور مزايين
صور ماسنجر
وسائط
صور حب

صور بنات
صور بنات للمسن
العاب مكياج و ميك اب
العاب ازياء
العاب مغامرات
العاب بنات
العاب تلبيس بنات
العاب باربي
العاب بلياردو
العب
العاب

صور ماسنجر
صور قلوب للمسن
صور مسن كتابية
صور مسن كرتونية
منوعات ماسنجر
صور مناسبات واسلاميات للمسن
صور ايدي وارجل للمسن
صور اطفال مسن
صور فنانين للماسنجر
صور بنات للمسن
صور مهند -
صور لميس -
صور توبا -
اغاني سنوات الضياع -
لحن اغنية سنوات الضياع -
فضايح استار اكاديمي -
سنوات الضياع -
مسلسل نور -
حلقات مسلسل نور التركي -
برامج نوكيا n73 -
مسلسل غزلان في غابة الذئاب -
لميس بطلة سنوات الضياع -
توبيكات ملونة بالصور -
توبيكات ملونة -
صور مهند مسنجر -
توبيكات حب -
ثيمات بنات -
ثيمات بنات رومنسيه -
توبيكات مسنجر -
توبكات مصرقعة -
توبيكات مسنجر ملونه -
توبيكات ماسنجر -
توبكات حب وعتاب للمسنجر -
توبيكات رومنسية -
توبيكات ماسنجر -
العاب نوكيا -
صور انهار -
ثيمات n80 -
صور وسائط -
مسجات اسلامية -
مسجات حب وغرام -
وسائط رومنسية -
فساتين 2008 -الازياء
-
فساتين سهرة -
فساتين -
تسرحيات -
صور بنوتات انمي -
ديكورات -
توم وجيري -
قصات شعر -
طيور الجنة -
اناشيد -
اثاث -
انمي -
اثاث - قصور -
قصات2008 -
تسريحات عرايس ‏2008 -
صور بنات -
العاب بنات -
جميلات العرب -
صور انمي -
فيديو كليب -
صور رومانسية -
صور تصميم -
صور للماسنجر -

ديكورات -

توبيك -
افلام كرتون -
اناشيد طيور الجنه -
صور حب -
صور للمسن -
تسريحات شعر -
يوتيوب -
افلام انمي -

صور قلوب -
صور انمي
-
صور اطفال للماسنجر -

صور باربي -
صور بنات للتصاميم -
نور ومهند -
رموز للماسنجر -

صور خلفيات رومانسية -
صور تصاميم -
توبيكات -
فساتين زفاف -
غرف نوم -
ديكورات روعه -
تلبيس بنات -
تلبيس الجاسوسات -
صور الجاسوسات -
الجاسوسات الثلاث -
صور انمي حزينه -
اجمل بنات -
أزياء بنات -
موضة 2008 -
موديلات فساتين -
اثاث جديد 2008 -
ميك اب -
ديكورات حمامات -
مسجات حب -
رسائل حب -
وسائط رومانسيه -
انمي رومنسي -
صور بنوتات جنان -
انمي حزينة رومانسية -
انمي خليجي -
صور انمي -
صور انمي 2008 -
بنات انمي رومنسي

صور ولادة نور -
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