The Last Refuge

In our lives, we have seen conservatives use racism as a political tool, war as a witless quest for domination, patriotism as a scourge, government as an instrument of greed, religion and "morality" as camouflage for spreading fear, ignorance and bigotry.

I would say that takes Chutzpah Joe off the Republican holiday card mailing list. Watch out movement conservatives, Joe Klein is coming out with guns blazing.

Thanks for that thoughtful post Joe.

I am glad that you can find the intellectual weaknesses to your own argument, even in the face of those who childishly berate your thoughts.

Keep up the excellent posting!

You sound desperate, Joe. Afraid of the new media leaving you behind? Suddenly come to your senses about the blogosphere?

The more the merrier, I guess. If you can wield your pen to help the progressive cause (as opposed to just concern trolling), then welcome aboard!

We'll see how this goes.

Funny, I thought it was stupid the very first time I read it.

This bears repeating:

In our lives, we have seen conservatives use racism as a political tool, war as a witless quest for domination, patriotism as a scourge, government as an instrument of greed, religion and "morality" as camouflage for spreading fear, ignorance and bigotry.

Good post, Joe. Beautiful.

Excellent article. But I disagree with your backtracking on patriotism. The argument even if motivated by anger is hardly flawed. Patriotism is a political weapon, (even a propaganda tool in war) and has always been. And the contest for where it rightly fits along the political spectrum is important because of the public perception of its importance to the reins of leadership. As long as patriotism remains a weapon solely in the arsenals of conservatives in the eyes of the public, the more socially just liberal position will always have an electoral disadvantage. It is for this purpose that conservatives must be challenged on the definition of patriotism.

Joe Klein drops a pair at 60, or however old he is. A medical miracle. My guess is when it takes that long for them to drop, they shrivel up pretty easily.

I generally agree with your post, Joe...but I disagree that progressives should shy away from questioning the patriotism of those who cynically demagogue the issue for their own political gain.

Let's not forget...4000 soldiers have died because some used patriotism as a bludgeon to intimidate a wounded country into supporting a war that made as little sense then as it does now.

Should we offensively question conservatives' patriotism? No.

But if they put the issue on the table, their patriotism is fair game for analysis.

They count on our devotion to nuance and intellectual honesty to steamroll us....and frankly, Joe, you should not wring your hands one bit in response to their criticism.

It's not stooping to their level to speak the truth about what they are doing.

I thought this was a great post. The reason why the Repbulicans have gone this route is because they have devoted themselves to the cause of their party over the cause of the country. Ever since Gingrich came to power the Republicans have governed more to keep Democrats from power than to benefit the nation. This is why they always vote lock step and toe to toe on everything in the Senate and why they stall any investigation into any of the wrong doings of the administration. Anything they percieve as a minus to the party they dig in against and obstruct. The party sees itself as the only ideology that is patriotic and good for the country. They proceeded the impeachment of Clinton for lying about a personal matter but won't act to investigate Bush for lying about national security. True patriotism indeed!

There ya go, Joe.

You got it.

Thank You Joe....

So, I was wrong to use patriotism as they do--as a weapon, even marginally so

It's instructive to remember that our nation was founded in a Revolution against arbitrary power and repressive authority. At its core is the idea that government is instituted by people to serve their interest and with their consent. It is also carefully designed to insure that individual human rights should not be infringed even when a majority desires it.

Once you understand these basic concepts, then patriotism flows naturally. It's striking how many misunderstand this basic idea.

All you really need to make this argument is the spectacle of Bush talking derisively about "the federal government" from the podium at the State of the Union. It's not really a "patriotism" issue you're talking about, it's really about the extent to which government should be "for the people." Republicans think it shouldn't be, and they cloak their "government against the people" in philosophy about human nature and a lot of other smoke and mirrors. Glad you finally saw through it, Joe.

Joe Klein - Thoughtful post.

Glad to see you write with such passion - in the blog.

I agree with the other commentors that you have no need to backtrack on your characterization of conservatives as neither optimistic nor patriotic. An optimist does not sacrifice civil liberties out of fear. A patriot does not weaken or dismantle the very institutions of government that have allowed this nation to survive for over two centuries. Conservatives are neither optimists nor patriots - they are paranoid individualists who want to see us at the mercy of the strongest amongst us.

It is funny how conservatives are able to wring an apology out of the non-conservative punidtry. Pearl-clutching and pants-wetting - what a glorious movement.

Wow Joe, I usually enjoy your writing(especially about Iraq), but arguing about patriotism just smacks of vanity. Do you really believe the people on the other side of the idealogical spectrum believe what they believe because they don't love there country? Sure I believe the current administration is taking us down the tubes, but I believe that they believe what they are doing is good for the country. They believe us Liberals are going to ruin this country with an orgy of sin and surrender. This is what they use to justify their tactics. Jingoism has been around since the beginning of our republic and will be until the very end. I don't know, i'm rambling, i'm going to bed.

Joe:

This is the ABSOLUTE BEST I have ever, ever, EVER seen you post. Intelligent, thoughtful, acknowledging.

I am truly astonished and intensly surprised, even given the recent evenhandedness you've shown.

I CANNOT say more! It would be absolutely superflous!

The ONLY time I have seen conservatives be "optomistic" is when they are doing so to portray everyone else's ideas as pessimistic.

Rustydog and Question Hillary are PERFECT examples!

Joe, this is very thoughtful, so much so that I'm going to pay you the ultimate pundit compliment by asking you to get past the contemplation of your own mind and start talking about the real world.

Nobody outside the Beltway gives a flying f**k why you or one of your overpaid brethren likes this lofty idea or that one. No one cares whether it is anger or stupidity that has driven you to make some of the mistakes you have made. We all do things out of stupidity and anger but most of us don't waste times exploring our own navels about it in public.

Why not just say "I've written a lot of dumb stuff about `patriotism' and the like but from now on I'm going to try to write about real things" and just leave it at that? That would be one small step for a pundit, one giant step for the punditry.

It's 3am, I'm drunk, and I'm here to say that the first gulf war was a retarded undertaking. There. I said it.

Joe, you're being too kind in tracing the right wing's desire for power above all else merely to Lee Atwater. That drive goes back to Nixon. You can trace the foundation of every nonsense right wing foundation and neo-con mag to those years, along with the constant whining about how mistreated they are by the "liberal media" any time they are criticized. We've been corrupted by half a century of their crap.

I am impressed: you were angry and you conveyed it. It is good for us to hear unvarnished stuff that relies on both reason and emotion. More often than not what is politically acceptable is often flat. A few more posts that gives us the "what I really think" Joe is better than a collation of soundbytes and distillations from the usual gasbags in the Beltway.

There are eleventeen infinity-billion good reasons to criticize the Bush administration and movement conservatism. They're unserious about national security, the budget, the economy, health care, the environment, domestic spying, torture, corruption/politicization, health care for veterans, etc. So, no need to resort to GOP-ish tactics to critique them.

As Wehner's list indicates, modern US conservatism has zero to do with the school of thought known as conservatism. Someone else once said, throw away your copies of Burke and Hume and buy a giant foam "We're #1" finger. That's conservatism today.

That said, I agree with RKA-- if the GOP wants to put the issue on the table, let's attack.

To judge by their actions, movement conservatives love America like Ike loved Tina.

Probably not anything you don't already know, Joe, but here's a summary of the debate between Lt. Col. Gentile and Col. Boylan (and with him Gen. Petraeus).

The ONLY time I have seen conservatives be "optomistic" is when they are doing so to portray everyone else's ideas as pessimistic. Rustydog and Question Hillary are PERFECT examples!
Posted by 53_2 | April 7, 2008 12:03 AM

Chicken Little politics of the "sky is falling" all around us, IS the major talking points for most all people posting on this blog since I have been reading here.

Patriotism defined is not about how much I want for myself, but how much will my country as a whole benefit from our collective decisions. The parting occurs when we have select interest groups with their specific agendas at hand to empower their particular interests ahead of the whole. We then quickly try to mix the two together.

My patriotism versus yours is not the question, what is the question is how your agenda will affect the outcomes for everyone else.

Quirky flag pins, saluting or crossing ones heart when the National Anthem is played are just outward signs that we believe in our Country overall. And at those times, We come together and praise what has come before us, rather than tear it apart. This is patriotism.

Not one of you can say after 9/11, that you were not appalled and angry. Not one of you can say the patriotism demonstrated by the vast majority of Americans at that time was wrong. This is what led us into a war, not Bush, Cheney or Mickey Mouse. It was Americans together saying in one voice, never again.

Anonymouse has left the tarmac!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_isolating_the_sadrists;_ylt=Au5rtex6_pPeu7PLKufHBy8UewgF

Seriously Say Joe, would restoring facts to your vacillating, weather vane "news" discourse actually help, given the late date?

Likely not.

Move On!

"...racism, greed, disdain for the poor, fear of the stranger..."

STOP PICKING ON REVEREND WRIGHT.

Joe's been re-telling The Big Liberal Lie for years (Booby Kennedy was not racist but socially great, JFK was not infected but Bay of Pigs brilliant, FDR was not an anti-Semitic isolationist but a domestic economic genius, all the other usual Clixonian lefty pablum based in fantasy if not outright fiction), but now that he's back on board with the troop bashing shock & awe Kos Klown keyboard commanders?

Priceless!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_isolating_the_sadrists;_ylt=Au5rtex6_pPeu7PLKufHBy8UewgF

Sadly, Scoop Jackson will not be around to see Iraq evolve from a semi-Stalinist EU kickball, into something closer to true peace & justice than you'll find in any LA Times opeditorial room this month.

Oh well.

Abbie Hoffman Happens.

Joe - exceptional post. Don't remember such an honest examination of a blogger's motives behind a mistake. Most of us make these mistakes occasionally - score points that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand, to issue payback for something entirely unrelated. I cringe when I remember some of mine. But most of us don't do it in front of the world. You could easily have let this pass; you get enough criticism for almost anything you say that you must have thought twice before you posted this. It gives a lie to your critics' cynicsim that you are not thoughtful or that you're in the tank for somebody. Thanks for taking the community and your own intellectual integrity seriously. (Nice touch to use this title).

"BAGHDAD (AP) - Iraq's major Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish parties have closed ranks to force anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr to disband his Mahdi Army militia or leave politics, lawmakers and officials involved in the effort said Sunday.

Such a bold move risks a violent backlash by al-Sadr's Shiite militia. But if it succeeds it could cause a major realignment of Iraq's political landscape.

The first step will be adding language to a draft election bill banning parties that operate militias from fielding candidates in provincial balloting this fall, the officials and lawmakers said. The government intends to send the draft to parliament within days and hopes to win approval within weeks.

"We, the Sadrists, are in a predicament," lawmaker Hassan al-Rubaie said Sunday. "Even the blocs that had in the past supported us are now against us and we cannot stop them from taking action against us in parliament."

Al-Sadr controls 30 of the 275 parliament seats, a substantial figure but not enough to block legislation.

Al-Rubaie said the threat was so serious that a delegation might have to discuss the issue with al-Sadr in person. The young cleric, who has disappeared from the public eye for nearly a year, is believed to be in the Iranian holy city of Qom.

In a rare public signal of dissent in Sadrist ranks, al-Rubaie complained that "those close" to al-Sadr "are radicals and that poses problems," suggesting that some of the cleric's confidants may be urging him toward a showdown.

"We must go and explain to him in person that there's a problem," he said.

U.S. officials have been pressing Iraq's government for years to disband the militias, including the Mahdi Army.

All major political parties are believed to maintain links to armed groups, although none acknowledge it. Some groups, including militias of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's Dawa party and al-Sadr's chief rival, the Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council, have been integrated into the government security services.

That put them nominally under the government's authority, although they are believed to maintain ties to the political parties and retain their command structures.

Uprisings in 2004 by al-Sadr's militiamen ended through mediation by top Shiite clerics. Shiite leaders then attempted to bring the Sadrists into the political mainstream, offering them Cabinet posts and deferring to them on some major security issues.

But attacks by Shiite extremists continued, allegedly carried out by pro-Iranian splinter groups.

The militia issue took on new urgency after al-Maliki launched a major operation March 25 against Shiite extremists in Basra and fighting quickly spread from the southern port city to Baghdad and elsewhere.

The Sadrists believed the Basra crackdown was aimed at weakening their movement before the fall elections. They insisted al-Maliki was encouraged to move against them by their chief Shiite rivals — the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council.

U.S. and Iraqi officials insist the crackdown is directed at criminal gangs and splinter groups supported by Iran.

Al-Sadr ordered his fighters off the streets March 30 under a deal brokered in Iran. But the truce left the militia intact and armed and did not address the long-term threat.

"We want the Sadrists to disband the Mahdi Army. Just freezing it is no longer acceptable," said Sadiq al-Rikabi, a senior adviser to al-Maliki. "The new election law will prevent any party that has weapons or runs a militia from contesting elections."

Broad outlines of the strategy to combat the militias were made public late Saturday in a statement by the Political Council for National Security, a top leadership body including the national president, prime minister and leaders of major parties in parliament.

The statement called on parties to disband their militias or face a political ban. Although the statement did not mention the Sadrists, the intent was clear.

President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, said Sunday that the statement was adopted after "heated, cordial, frank and transparent discussion," Al-Rubaie and another Sadrist lawmaker who attended objected to the call for militias to disband, he said.

Al-Rubaie confirmed Talabani's account and said "our political isolation was very clear and real during the meeting."

Kurdish lawmaker Mahmoud Othman said the Sadrists must either disband the militia "or face the Americans." He was alluding to the possibility of full-scale U.S. military involvement if al-Sadr refuses to disband his militia and the government decides to disarm it by force.

Al-Sadr has called on supporters to stage a "million-strong" protest in Baghdad on Wednesday to mark the fifth anniversary of the city's capture by U.S. troops.

"We will watch it carefully," said Reda Jawad Taqi, a senior member of the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council.

...

Uh oh.

There goes another late breaking bogus Klein premise, out the old Humus Lefts Watch and ACLU domestic insurgent window.

You'd think the major media would have some fact checkers in their Time-Lifer realm by now, eh?

But please Joe, by all means, keep up your gutless, half-informed, 100% CBS suckled e-Jihad against General Petraeus.

It tends to take the vapid Laura Logan heat off Hillary and Blozo, if nothing else.

Good post but I disagree with your use of the word patriotism in relation to the Republicans. What they practice is a mindless, unquestioning nationalism, not patriotism.

cc: Matt

JIHAD JOE KLEIN GOES APE SHIITE ON GOP...

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/04/the_last_refuge.html

Enjoy!

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VSQNL00&show_article=1

Speaking of last refuse, the Clixons have gone and lurched left in one last, flailing, despercrap attempt to steal Poonlassy County ballot boxes from the O'Bonger camp.

The laughter IS indeed difficult to control.

= SUMMER SOLDIER ACCOMPLISHED =

Joe Klein is my new hero! What an excellent post. What oratory, what prose! You are an incredible talent and clearly have finally evolved into something that is actually useful!

Bravo!

Together we can!

Obama 08!

"I would say that takes Chutzpah Joe off the Republican holiday card mailing list."

He can kiss his tickets to the McCain inaugural and 2009+ White House press junkets adiós too.

= IMMOLATION ACCOMPLISHED =

StewieZ

Say Joe was wrong on Iran, wrong on Iraq, wrong on al Sadr, wrong on Hillary, wrong on Petraeus and Odierno, wrong on Gaza and Israel, and long gone wrong on McCain.

But by all means, celebrate him.

He's pretty much all you dolts have LEFT to strap on, for the forthcoming November reaming.

Note to RNC: Mark Penn now available.

This is what led us into a war, not Bush, Cheney or Mickey Mouse. It was Americans together saying in one voice, never again.

That is a bald-faced lie. The 9/11 attacks in no way justified the invasion of Iraq. 9/11 fear and anger were cynically manipulated by the NeoCons to accomplish their long-sought goal of removing Saddam and controlling Iraq's oil resources. Iraq was invaded deliberately for reasons other than making America "safe" from terror. The GWOT cover story was a carefully engineered lie. America was led into a criminal war of aggression under false pretenses, and now the criminals want to blame the public.

May Bush, Cheney and the whole sick NeoCon crew rot in Hell for the misery, torture, and murder they have inflicted on the world. They have shamed our nation and will never be forgiven.

QH and StewieZ seem somewhat agitated at Chutzpah Joe's rediscovery of his liberal beliefs. Perhaps the impact of rockets on the Green Zone and collapsing firms on Wall Street is changing Joe's perspective on the triumphant achievements of the Bush administration.

I am looking forward to seeing QH and StewieZ in action in Iraq. I'm sure that they will send us pictures from the streets of Baghdad when they are not busy spreading freedom.

"The 9/11 attacks in no way justified the invasion of Iraq."

Wrong.

CHER could have been POTUS on 9-12-01, and Saddam was still going to be a dead duck.

Our MISTAKE was not issuing Iran and Syria the concurrent ultimatum -- Stand Down or Get Smoked -- and then ACTING on it when they stammered to the UN for the umpteenth ICBM extra underground nuke lab building Time.

This incessant, mindless, myopic Howard Scream RETREAT AT ALL COSTS crap will get us all killed, should idiot Obama (latest liberal Congressional defender of Hamas and Hezbollah -- yes, they're a media sycophant mob) have his Carteresque way.

WAKE UP.

Iraq finally has a chance to succeed in FREEDOM and not fiefdom, and for that at least Bush is owed a measure of thanks now (and not just when he's added to Mount Rushmore).

The USA has about 225 years on Iraq, in the self policing and domestic upheaval category that leads to domestic choice and international care.

Anyone praying to Allah that peace will break out there (or anywhere else) in Time for the next American Idle DNC dolt to get elected IS in for a very, very, very sad second Tuesday in November.

Everyone wants peace (outside of Al Queda proper).

Wanting, versus working to actually make it happen if long down the road, does not make it so.

Passing legal paper and declaring isolationist victory achieves nothing but another war in another 10 years, for the lack of FINISHING THE JOB in Iraq now.

If that includes carpet bombing Iranian military targets?

GOOD.

It will leave Pakistan and Syria that much sharper to the eye when they too come under increasing U.S. scrutiny.

This assumes liberals actually want to defeat terrorism of course, and all the difficult freeing of slaves that it entails.

I think that Rusty and QH make the case against conservatism more eloquently than the rest of us put together. And I wonder if reading them is part of what's bringing about Klein's awakening.

Great post, Joe.

The Bushians were able to quell Dem and media dissent before the war by insisting anyone not buying their line was unpatriotic.

To be clear:

The fastest route to a lasting peace is our confronting Iran, militarily, now. It would have a chilling effect on state sponsored and transited terrorism EVERYWHERE.

We have the air and sea power in the region (which we're basically not using) to erase their airfields, ports (sorry EU oil thieves), military power stations, and nuke lab doorways from Allah's red swollen Soviet sponsored be-hind.

Lacking a cloning and re-insertion of the Shah (thanks again Jiminy Crater!) we will have to act, and soon. None of the UN reports on Iran's nuke labs are helping Tehran.

If we fail to act, we will suffer untold consequences more serious than any liberal can imagine (outside the abortion clinic).

I encourage liberals everywhere to pack their Peugeots and life partners, as the rush to become Humus Panty Shields for Tehran should begin soon.

Tell Sean Penn and Michelle Moop hello when you hit Mecca.

If that includes carpet bombing Iranian military targets?

GOOD.

It will leave Pakistan and Syria that much sharper to the eye when they too come under increasing U.S. scrutiny.

This is the kind of insane war-mongering that will drive the NeoCons out of power. They equate having a big air force with invincibility. The British had a big air force too, but they left India. The Neo-Colonial era is over. We don't own the world and we can't control the world. QH believes that a sufficient amount of killing will assure America's unchallenged sway over the world. Such thinking predates the spread of nuclear weapons.

QH's historical clock seems to have stopped in 1945, and thus the expulsion of occupiers from India, Algeria, Vietnam, and Aghanistan is absent from his knowledge base. There has been NO SUCCESSFUL defeat of a major nationalist insurgency in the post WWII era, but QH doesn't see the Iraq fiasco in those terms. He keeps playing "Sands of Iwo Jima" over and over in his head.

The fastest route to a lasting peace is our confronting Iran, militarily, now. It would have a chilling effect on state sponsored and transited terrorism EVERYWHERE

What an amazing coincidence. That's exactly what they said about Iraq in 2003.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTFhZGQ4Y2IyZmNlY2QyNDkwZTlkZjFkYjZiNWY0YzU=

Thanks for the memories......

We have the air and sea power in the region

The power to do what? Stir up a hornet's nest in a nation three times the size of Iraq? QH is too ignorant to know that Iran has modern arms and large armed forces. Iran has missiles that can sink the biggest US ships, knock out US main battle tanks, and down US attack helicopters. Iran has had five years to watch its neighbor destroyed by US invaders and it has studied US and insurgent tactics. Iran will be ready for us when we come, and US casualties will be high. It is QH's racist contempt for America's adversaries in the Mideast that makes him think we are invincible. But for all his faith in our superiority, we are bogged down in a miserable occupation of Iraq in which our embassy is currently under mortar and rocket fire.

So the answer to all our problems is to extend the war into Iran, Syria, and Pakistan? I don't think so.

"What an amazing coincidence. That's exactly what they said about Iraq in 2003."

How many attacks on U.S. soil, since we invaded Iraq in 2003?

Take your Time.

You have about 10 months until the McCain inaugural.

"It is QH's racist contempt for America's adversaries in the Mideast that makes him think we are invincible."

Your shrill, strident projection of your own lefty loon paranoia (never mind there won't be a ground war in Iran) IS unflinching to be sure, but what does that have to do with the distance our sea and air launched cruise missiles will have to travel to open Allah a new one in Tehran?

Silly liberals.

They think Jane's IS the UK version of the Lou Reed fan club, apparently.

Rusty proves himself capable of reason.

Not one of you can say after 9/11, that you were not appalled and angry. Not one of you can say the patriotism demonstrated by the vast majority of Americans at that time was wrong. This is what led us into a war, not Bush, Cheney or Mickey Mouse

Unfortunately the war it led us into was Afghanistan, not Iraq. It seems that the genuine patriotism we felt was utilized, along with the general confusion over the identities and affilliations of the various ME actors, to suspend the War on Islamic Extremism in order to attack the only secular regime in the region.

Anyone who agrees that this was a good idea might be described many ways, but for some reason 'patriotic' strikes me as being far down the list.

"...the only secular regime in the region..."

TURKEY ring any bells?

ISRAEL perhaps?

LEBANON maybe?

I guess when you deliver 90% of the DNC, er, Baathist vote, anything IS possible.

On to Tehran, and then Havana!

How many attacks on U.S. soil, since we invaded Iraq in 2003?

And the causal link is??? I have been flossing my teeth regularly since 2003, and I think there is an equally strong correlation to the absence of terrorist attacks.

The British do not seem to have been so fortunate, but I suppose that is because they are not as special as Americans.

never mind there won't be a ground war in Iran

Field Marshal QH has spoken! There won't be a ground war because we proved that we can neutralize missile sites from the air. NOT.

The only way to secure the vital waterway of the Persian Gulf after attacking Iran is to occupy and neutralize all missile launching sites along the Iranian coast. This requires an invasion force. This force will be drawn into ground combat to push Iranians outside of mortar and rocket range. It will be Iraq all over again X10, with dramatically higher US casualties.

Of course, QH wouldn't mind resumption of a draft and disruption of world oil supplies. As long as he can watch the war on CNN and eat Cheetos, it will be a grand new war!

"The British do not seem to have been so fortunate, but I suppose that is because they are not as special as Americans."

Yes, their politically correct multicultural diversity, in the glowing form of foaming neighborhood mullahs (Al Queda agents) whipping up humorless anti-Western dissent, has been a real winner.

= VAN GOGH ACCOMPLISHED =

"The only way to secure the vital waterway of the Persian Gulf after attacking Iran is to occupy and neutralize all missile launching sites along the Iranian coast."

When their spastic Soviet-style centrifuged C&C gets deep fried from 30,000 feet, call me: Maybe your cell phone will light up your Citroen, for the next A-10 that chances by.

POOF goes the weasel.

I think Question Hillary is going through a fundamental hissy fit.

Joe Klein has hit QH right on the nail head this time.

Watch those rocks from space...

I'm thinking when Joe has finally hit the ills of the Republican party on the nail head, QH has finally gone insane.

Let's load him in the next rowboat to Iran.

Nice. You need to cut it out with this insightful stuff or it's going to make it harder for us to make fun of you the next time you say something stupid.

The bit about conservatives clogging our jails is ambiguous. Are you speaking of one in twenty black males who are in prison or are you speaking of the handful of Republicans who have been indicted.

I'd like to see one in twenty Republican males in jail with only a handful of African American males indicted.

53_2

I see that Skybust.com thing didn't quite pan out, eh?

Oh well.

Back to pouring $5 coffee at Fish Place I guess.

Yes, their politically correct multicultural diversity

QH is terrified that angry, middle-aged White Men, God's chosen people, may be losing their grip on power in America. It is all those brown people overseas that are stirring up the trouble. He wants to nuke the brown people to spread FREEDOM!

America is threatened by blacks, immigrants, feminists, homosexuals, Communists, polygamists, jihadis, and DFHs. QH cries out for a strong man to rise up and crush this mongrel horde. Where can such a man be found?

Rusty the Wonder Pooch:

Yes! You are so right! Only YOU have the keys to the palace. I mean, who could argue with you, with such blind optimism. I mean, isn't that all it takes, nowadays?

Optimism and a little smoke and mirrors. Not to mention your own self-appointed superiority? You seem to have deluded yourself into thinking you have ALL the brains and NONE of the warts of your comrades.

I've watched your type for almost 40 years, and I'm glad to say that the sun is setting on the ignorant, foul brood you swill with.

With those combinations, and the others of these same fine upstanding Soviets, er, oops, I mean, Americans, it's a complete wonder there is even anything left to fix in this country.

They think Jane's IS the UK version of the Lou Reed fan club, apparently.

That was funny.

When their spastic Soviet-style centrifuged C&C gets deep fried from 30,000 feet, call me: Maybe your cell phone will light up your Citroen, for the next A-10 that chances by.

Field Marshall QH dispenses more military insight. The spectacular success of Israel's state of the art military against Hezbollah in Lebanon certainly suggests that America can make a clean sweep of Iran. High tech neutralization of IEDs in Iraq has been such a great success that EFPs in Iran will be a non issue. The mountains of Iran could never shelter a guerrilla resistance. US airpower would smoke them out, just as it did when we caught Bin Laden.

QH has all the answers. Surely he will be in the first landing craft that hits the beach in Iran.

In order to combat the Islamofascist terror threat from Iran, liberals led by Admiral Skippy O'Bonger and SecDef Howard SCREAM Dean will be whipping up another quick 72 day carpet bombing of Belgrade.

Then they will watch Monica file for bankruptcy.

Flem at 11.

Nope, QH.

Just early in the morning, enjoying my coffee, as my next job as a GIS Analyst comes to the top of the priority list.

AND I get to watch your ignorance flame as your brain drops in free-fall 88,000 feet up.

I think you just got hit by a bigot-seeking missile!

It's death throes, HH, all.

Question Hillary, is going insane.

His namesake may not make the candidacy, his racist tendancies are inflamed by the very thought of Black man seriously contending for the right to run our country, the rest of the US is starting to turn it's back on the mind-numbing arrogance of the Republican party, and to top it off, Joe Klein has hit his party's woes on the nail head.

Death throes, convulsive snapping, frothing at the mouth sort of stuff.

"They think Jane's IS the UK version of the Lou Reed fan club, apparently.

That was funny."

I try to know armaments, if not liberals.

"I think you just got hit by a bigot-seeking missile!"

Since when does distaste for thug Islamofascism and masochistic Reverend Wrong equal bigotry?

Oh, right.

You.

"...his racist tendancies are inflamed by the very thought of Black man seriously contending for the right to run our country..."

When Condi IS sworn in as VEEP I'll be sure to mention you called from the campus.

Yup. Insane.

QH, how about you move to the moon.

It's very white there, you know. Plus, in addition to the fact that there are no minorities there, you can blow stuff up to your hearts content!

You can take your imaginary menagerie that hides behind every rock that inhabits your mind with you. You know, your imaginary commies, pinkos, libruls, gays, and minorities. The imaginary ones in your head don't quite match what's on the ground, QH.

Run for the moon and take your infernal, internal enemies with you! Run like hell!

Joe, you were right the first time.

Question Hillary, is going insane.

The day has just begun and I already sense a QH Clinton exorcism chant coming on. You know, the ones where the sentence structure breaks down and he just does a free-association bloghorrhea demonization stream. QH is the best example of wingnut dementia I have ever encountered in the blogosphere.

"When Condi IS sworn in as VEEP I'll be sure to mention you called from the campus."

Poor QH.

He can't tell the difference between a legitimate candidate and "professional itineracy". Of COURSE, Alan Keyes was a legitemate candidate, too!

That's his version of "colorblindness"...

53_2 = Reverend Wrong's left nut

The one that dropped, anyway.

53_2

As a public service I am again mentioning the study from Nature Neurosci

Neurocognitive correlates of liberalism and conservatism.Amodio DM, Jost JT, Master SL, Yee CM.
Department of Psychology, New York University, 6 Washington Place, New York, New York 10003, USA. david.amodio@nyu.edu

Political scientists and psychologists have noted that, on average, conservatives show more structured and persistent cognitive styles, whereas liberals are more responsive to informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty. We tested the hypothesis that these profiles relate to differences in general neurocognitive functioning using event-related potentials, and found that greater liberalism was associated with stronger conflict-related anterior cingulate activity, suggesting greater neurocognitive sensitivity to cues for altering a habitual response pattern.

Conservatives are hard wired to repeat the same mistakes. I know it IS frustrating, but please take into account QH's limited mental capacity.

In the small world of 53_2 and HH, everything still comes down to race, sadly.

It must suck living in a tunnel.

I try to know armaments, if not liberals.

What do you know about the RPG-29, the Sunburn, the TOR M1 SAM, and the Shkval torpedo, Field Marshall QH? This is what we will be facing in Iran, not kids with AK-47s in the streets.

"QH is the best example of wingnut dementia I have ever encountered in the blogosphere."

I tink so, doctor.

Ve haf tried, but ze truth serum, eet's too much! Maybe ve should turn up ze voltage, no?

I vill go get another jar of eyes and the Jacob's ladder. Then ve vill zee!

"...whereas liberals are more responsive to informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty..."

In other words, they can't make a decision to save themselves (on anyone else).

Called the Carter Syndrome.

Been there.

Done that.

Never again.

"...the RPG-29, the Sunburn, the TOR M1 SAM, and the Shkval torpedo..."

That Russian, Red Chinese, and North Korean factories would be closed without them.

mrd0000:

I know. It is frustrating, and a little sad.

Death throes are not easy to watch. Someone should consider writing a peer-reviewed paper on the psyciatric and psychological progression taking place.

Nis neurons must be snapping like popcorn, right now.

BTW, I sat down yesterday and read with absolute astonishment Joe Kleins' post. I have not had a more fulfilling day, and a more instructive one, then yesterday when I read it.

To FINALLY hear a major pundit acknowledge the ills of the past 30 years was the most refreshing breath of fresh air I have ever inhaled!

It makes me think that the racial/political "Dark Ages" might just be over soon, regardless of what mey happen in November.

everything still comes down to race, sadly

No way, QH, I was just admiring the rainbow diversity of the lineup of Republican primary candidates. A middle-aged white guy, an old white guy, a middle-aged white guy, another old white guy, and a middle-aged white guy. Isn't it odd how these Republican white guys are natural-born leaders? It makes you wonder if they have some special advantage over other sexes and races.

The fact that there are NO BLACK REPUBLICANS in Congress demonstrates that Republicans are the inclusive party, because they have made no special efforts to elect blacks, and thus the natural superiority of white Republicans has been demonstrated.

that, joe, is why i have always enjoyed your writing. well thought out...and also why i berated you (perhaps unfairly, as anger sometimes grabs me too) so on your earlier post. if anything it was unklein-like...thanks for having the courage to reassess. now if we could elect people with that ability...

Back to square:

Klein's been beating the BIN SADR MATTERS drum for months here, despite the growing facts to the contrary.

Has anyone in lower libtardia the ethical IQ to call him what he IS (a spineless, troop bashing DNC sycophant weather vane ala Billary), for once -- or will you just continue to bleat your way to defeat again in November?

I say keep bleating.

"In our lives, we have seen conservatives use racism as a political tool, war as a witless quest for domination, patriotism as a scourge, government as an instrument of greed, religion and "morality" as camouflage for spreading fear, ignorance and bigotry."

He's the first black Reverend Wrong.

That Russian, Red Chinese, and North Korean factories would be closed without them.

You are too modest, Field Marshall QH. You also know that American forces have never been tested against them, and that many unpleasant surprises and serious military losses might result from encountering this new generation of weapons in Iran. But that just adds to the excitement, doesn't it QH? After all its just somebody else's kids that are going to be blown apart. So you can take the risk because the only difficulty you might face is running out of gas. You will still be able to watch the war on your TeeVee.

Now for Question Hillary:

On almost ALL occasions, when race has been raised on these blogs, you are the FIRST to jump in with an insertion of your now-famous ignorance.

I don't even think that the ripost "If all I see is race, all you see is war and hate" is good enough.

You seem to think that people like you, who denigrate Black Americans, their kin, their relatives and freinds, and their morals are less that yours, and, by definition, white.

What I enjoy most about jabbing you constantly is watching you become ever more careful about what you blog, but what is in your heart is clearly hate.

You may know armaments, QH, but that's about all you know. You're still stuck in that Republican racists' shack way up in them thar foothils. You need intelligence to use arms, QH, and you don't have any.

BTW, that American flag you have?

Hating so many fellow Americans, how can you call yourself a patriot anyway.

A patriot of what? What this country was in 1956? Probably. A patriot of our country now?

Nope.

Watch those rocks from space, QH...

BTW: The Surge IS still working -- and McCain leads retro-commie Thing 1 and Thing 2 in every major poll of merit for domestic victory in November.

What IS is.

"The fact that there are NO BLACK REPUBLICANS in Congress demonstrates that Republicans are the inclusive party, because they have made no special efforts to elect blacks, and thus the natural superiority of white Republicans has been demonstrated."

Send your race baiting Billary complaints to Senator Chuck Schoooooooooooooomer.

Axe for your free credit report.

It should be on his desk, next to the map of Maryland.

The Surge IS still working

Five years after the invasion of Iraq, there are mortar and rocket rounds falling on our embassy in Iraq. Mission accomplished?

QH says the answer is to invade more countries and to kill more people until America is declared MASTER OF THE WORLD. I don't think so.

What QH doesn't realize, for all his supposed knowlege of armaments is there is NO effective AMS yet.

And there may never be, even with ground based laser. Decoys, decoys, decoys...

And what he forgets too, is that there are other economies besides free market economies, so no factories will be closing anytime soon. There is just too high a demand for them.

AND, QH may know what weopon to choose when blowing up a church, but doesn't know a bit of history, other than what he makes up.

"...You seem to think that people like you, who denigrate Black Americans, their kin, their relatives and freinds, and their morals are less that yours..."

Sorry, I had the Chappelle Show turned up. Dude cracks me up, y'all!

What was that about denigrating race, again?

Hold it, call coming in from Murky Waters on the CIA-AIDS Cocaine Creation line from Atlanta...

Quiet riot, indeed.

On to Filthydelphia!

Joe, great post. I agree that if so-called conservatives question our patriotism, it's fine to turn the tables on them, but it's not appropriate to make sweeping generalizations about either liberalism or conservatism being more patriotic.

We need to change the way we think, not just our opinions, to really improve things, and rejecting this absurd and irrelevant patriotism debate is a step in the right direction.

And I just want to point out that QH and Rustydog are no more conservative than I am or any other progressive is. They have co-opted the word and the jargon of conservatism, but their reckless disregard for national and economic security show that they have no interest in real conservatism.

Sigh...

Another thread bites the dust....

"Send your race baiting Billary complaints to Senator Chuck Schoooooooooooooomer."

Methinks, QH, this one would go next to your other many ignorant comments. Of course, I'm sure that you didn't intend to insinuate that nearly all Black voters are looking for a handout, are you? You already managed to insinuate they are jail birds.

You are two for two, QH, on the racial bigotry front. Keep fighting off those curveballs...

Of course, to people like you, when it's Black Americans, "addressing issues" becomes "pandering".

DEEP within that last sentance is the truth, QH.

Watch those rocks from space...

McCain leads retro-commie Thing 1 and Thing 2

QH is like the Japanese soldier on the remote Pacific Island who never heard that the war ended. He thinks HRC and Obama are Communists. This man is seriously detached from reality, but I believe he speaks for the 20% of Americans who enthusiastically support Bush and Cheney. QH is just the uninhibited voice screaming out what the quiet Republican nuts are afraid to say.

Ditto on the great post. It would be fine to see the Swamplanders and the dead-tree Time take on a substantive exploration of the difference between patriotism and the nationalism displayed primarily by the reThug leadership and their camp followers like QH and RD.

A good starting point might be Teddy Roosevelt's wonderful quote on how an American patriot should act:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiently or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."

Paul Dirks is right, though, and I'm as guilty as the next.

This is quite a commentary by Joe and it really does deserve intelligent discussion.

Republican President Teddy Roosevelt also said, in 1918 during World War One:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

TR would have praised questioning our direction. Our country's political structure is filled with demogagues who have attempted to substitute their own views for patriotism and have attempted to manipulate sentiments inflamed by 9/11 to surpress debate.

It's a shame that it happened, but I'm hoping we are looking at a better future.

Lacking a coherent (or any) policy on national defense -- so learnedly scary to liberals, if not part of their mild DNA defects -- they revert to their usual litany of rants: Racial inequality (forget the Civil War ended in 1865, if not the democrat party itself), immigration (Ellis Island off their radar as well), education (DC teacher union dregs), pinhead populism (tax the few rich, feed the many taxmen, skip the societal needy), crime (never a racial problem, unless in defense of jury nullification and/or OJ), envy (see Asia), greed (see Sharpton, Clinton, Citibank, UAW), and of course sex (homosexuality being our first politically correct queerness short of making man-mutt sex legal again in Cali's oceanside barrister quarters).

These then are the tenets of today's loon liberalism, if not that different in tone and content from 60's loon liberalism.

They are independent, but they will be joiners for the cause (after the convention).

They are patriotic, at least until Kerry loses another election for mostly France.

They are responsible, as long as getting the free methadone doesn't conflict with the bus schedule to the free clinic.

They are tenured, never mind the actual military record in Vietnam or Kosovo, so help me Rangerette Hillary.

They are constitutional, where the law remains more a work in progress than a set of moral values construed in American if not working European law.

With such a legacy of fairness, courage, inclusiveness, openness, lieberry records transparency, hookers, interns, pardons, and peckerwood, they should have little to worry about in the fall outside of the Century 21 of South Side Chicago offices.

Make it so, Governor Sipser.

The repukes are so caught up in the thicket of patriotic symbols that they mistake adherence to every last one of them for true patriotism. A real patriot understands the difference between a symbol and a value.

QH continually questions the patriotism of all the liberal posters here. That is pretty much what the nationalist Republicans practice these days. "My country, right or wrong." They question your patriotism if you do not act irrationally like them. At the same time you see them using Liberal values, freedom and liberty, to justify their tactics. Conservatives never wanted to spread freedom to all corners of the Globe before. Now they claim they do, starting in Iraq.

Freedom cannot be obtained at the point of a gun. You also cannot act against the principles of liberal democracy while at the same time claiming to be spreading them. The people of a nation need to want democracy and freedom themselves before there is any chance of enforcing it. The best way to get them to that point is by example, and through information. The Internet is a far better tool for spreading democracy than a gun. We might be better off beaming free internet access to every corner of the world, rather than trying to invade and occupy all those countries, and it is much cheaper too.

Yowzer!

This wacko can switch personalities faster than I can call my dog Trent Lott!

Trouble is, is, that he's still the same QH. I can tell by the same troupe of imaginary boogymen that keep chasing him through the lonely mirrored halls of his own mind.

Watch those rocks from space, QH...

These guys have been around even in the '70s and '60s. I remember the refrain, "love it or leave it" at the height of the debate on the Vietnam war.

Had they not been able to surpress dissent after 9/11, we probably would never have gotten mired in Iraq.

The lessons of history were absolutely totally ignored - and what's worse, true patriots were villified and had to leave.

So now we have an armed forces that are still to top-heavy with Neocons. We need REAL military leaders.

They need to go.

"...whereas liberals are more responsive to informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty..."

In other words, they can't make a decision to save themselves (on anyone else).

------------------------------------
(ON anyone else)????
I knew your brain plate could not interpret the data.
Liberals adapted to the situation, conservatives repeated the same mistakes.
It was the complexity thing that confused you, wasn't it.

We feel your pain. We have even opened up Affirmative Action Programs for Conservatives.
They get spotted con points. Examples:

1) Bush trying to grapple with the English language.
2) Glenn Beck straining to form a coherent thought.
3) Dennis Miller trying to be funny.
4) William Kristol struggling to write a NYT article that doesn't have to be immediately corrected.
5) Jonah Goldberg not able to give the definition of Fascist.

Cons have been graded on a curve. But If Joe Klein is an example, the gravy train is ending and cons will be judged on their character and content.

McCain doesn't know Shiite from Shine-O-La. The John also lied about the MLK holiday. McCain supported an Arizona state holiday, but has never been for or approved funding for a National MLK holiday.

The doddering old fool IS confused and a liar.
Oh well, Johns ARE full of SHIITE.

QH:

For all I know you're right – had Cher been POTUS we would have invaded Iraq.

At least you chose an apt intellectual comparison for the guy who actually ordered that disaster.

Klein wins the DNC lightening round for pushing all the pinhead lefty GET BUSH buttons, and he's declared a career Kossack genius?

Some plan there libs.

Iran must be quivering in their stereotypical camels.

I would like to hear Klein explain the vast discrepancies between his historic takes on Al Sadr, and what's being broadly reported -- today, not in 2006 -- as a national Iraqi movement against the various Shiite militias.

He does a great disservice to our military leadership and the troops they direct, when he limits his self-stunted critiques to a very narrow news view obviously channeled through some limited or old sources at best -- and more personal media opinion at worst.

Not news there, of course.