More on Patriotism

those who spent the past seven years as propagandists for the one of the worst, and needlessly blood-soaked, presidencies in American history, have such a fabulous record of self-righteous wrong-headedness that they needn't be taken seriously at all.

If the concept of chutzpah could be raised to an infinite power, this hyper-chutzpah would be applicable to Bush admirer and war enabler Joe Klein denouncing the Bush admiring war enablers. Joe Klein must surely now weep, for there is no remaining frontier of chutzpah for him to conquer.

2 posts, then erased.

When you can't handle the truth?

Censorship!

Way to go, Jihad Joe!

Can you please drop this subject?

I don't know anyone who believes in the "perfectability" of our nation. Indeed, the concept is nutso. Really, really weird.

Yes, the nation and its citizens can be IMPROVED. And even a DFH like me is willing to say that both ends of the political spectrum believe we can be better as a nation and a people.

I just don't get the whole gist of Joe's latest schtick.

Can someone else jump in here an explain for me what Joe is talking about, and why he has a bee in his bonnet about it?

Or are some of the most cynical travelers here correct, and this "issue" is simply a way to keep suspicions of Obama's patriotism front and center? Or as other cynical posters have suggested, is stuff like this calculated specifically to annoy us and, thus, attract page hits?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe_elections

Something that might actually matter, truth be told.

It reminds me of the "Cunningham" approach to human nature in "Donnie Darko," where all emotion has to be placed on a line with "fear" and "love" on the opposite poles.

Joe's weltenshaung (sp?) spectrum seems to be along a "patriotism" axis these days, and all activity falls somewhere upon it.

Just weird.

Thanks for the addition, Joe.

Was that made before or after 11:31? I don't think it was there when I posted. . . .

Can someone else jump in here an explain for me what Joe is talking about,

Chutzpah Joe has called the tipping point on the whole post-Reagan rightward lurch in American society. He now sees the military and economic disasters as too big to cover up any more and he is scrambling for the lifeboat of born-again liberal pundit.

Unfortunately for Chutzpah Joe, the Internet allows for rapid distribution of his "greatest misses" in supporting Bush and the Iraq war. No amount of "stupid, stupid, stupid" self-abasement will allow him to regain the status of an insightful commentator among informed readers. The game is over.

Last comment on this one for a while:

With a last sentence like that one, it means it's time to start up the stopwatch to see how long it takes for "bad Joe" to show up again and carry water for the very people he excoriates.

tickticktickticktick. . . . .

"And those who spent the past seven years as propagandists for the one of the worst, and needlessly blood-soaked, presidencies in American history, have such a fabulous record of self-righteous wrong-headedness that they needn't be taken seriously at all."

Cox and Scherer are going to be mad when they see what you wrote about McCain

If Klein's lies, smears, hate, and logic were any rounder he'd be Michael Moore.

Joe, you've been on a tear lately, and a good one. Yours have been the only posts with any kind of substance lately, and I hope you'll keep it up.

SFBear, the Republicans have settled on the "patriotism" issue as an effective one to attack Obama. It is essential to get out in front of those attacks *now* before they turn into an out-and-out Swiftboating. I hope you'll give Klein some credit here for seeing it coming. Apparently the Republicans are already working on him, so maybe he doesn't need to get hit from both sides?

The mistake Bush 41 made in 1992 was to limit his questions of Clixon to BJ's "judgment" when he should have gone after his limp-dicked, draft dodging, military loathing "patriotism" as Job 1.

McCain won't make the same mistake, whether the lefty loon of supplicate coronation (speechifying of freedom of choice) be neo-commie Thing 1 or Thing 2.

Anonymous THAT.

I don't know anyone who believes in the "perfectability" of our nation.

Actually, this is a direct reference to the Constitution and to the visions the founders had for the nation.

I've been reading Garry Wills on the writing of the constitution. He points out that at the time "perfect" denoted "complete." So a more "perfect Union" is a more complete union, one to replace in the incomplete confederation.

The idea, though, embodied in an amendable, broadly written constitution if for progress toward greater perfection.

This resonates very nicely with Obama's other themes, especially the ones regarding the words of the constitution and the continuation of chattel slavery as an American institution.

Joe fully supports the kind of Carteresque legal hairsplitting that made 9-11 possible in the first place.

Summary:

He's no enlightened late breaking patriot.

He's a professional semi-confessional idiot.

Send your complaints to Westy and CBS "News".

James from LA:

Perhaps, but the column that got it all started bought into the Republican narrative completely. It spread the meme, it didn't counter it. These little online flourishes and filigrees will be lost.

Joe needs to get hit from all sides until he stops regurgitating inapt and stale narratives.

How about a column in dead-tree Time about the bankruptcy of the Republican vision, discussing the fact that all they have left is puns on names to be used in feeble attempts to smear a well-qualified candidate?

I guarantee I wouldn't "hit" a column like that because it would be perceptive, underreported, and true to its core.

Can someone else jump in here an explain for me what Joe is talking about, and why he has a bee in his bonnet about it?

Posted by SFBear | April 6, 2008 11:31 AM

Joe has spent the past 20 years cowering in terror that he would be attacked by the Limbaugh wing of America for his extremely mild center-leftism. Partially as a result of this terror, he's written some of the most awful columns imaginable, given some of the worst advice in history, relentlessly attacked anyone to the left of him to prove how sane and centrist he is, repeatedly violated the tenets of whatever conscience he has, and generally behaved in such a way that even he, a supreme narcissist, despises parts of himself for what he has become. He now sees an opportunity to engage in a fight he should have been fighting for 20 years, and he's taking it.

Jay:

"More perfect" I can understand. To me, that means improvement.

"Perfection" is impossible and hubristic. For Jews like Joe and me, you bring down the wrath of the "evil eye" simply by suggesting such a thing. . . . ;)

SFBear, the Republicans have settled on the "patriotism" issue as an effective one to attack Obama. It is essential to get out in front of those attacks *now* before they turn into an out-and-out Swiftboating. I hope you'll give Klein some credit here for seeing it coming. Apparently the Republicans are already working on him, so maybe he doesn't need to get hit from both sides?

I just hope that Joe will put some kind of appropriate discussion as to what patriotism really means in his paper Time column so it gets the kind of circulation that his original column got. Assuming that the definition won't turn out to be bad for Democrats. ;)

If ever there were a place for less socially acceptable bi-polarism, it would be in Joe Klein's brain locker.

I'm with you SF. I'm just wondering how far constant bashing is going to take us without some kind of more constructive strategy to go along with it. Jes' saying. At some point, don't they just tune out?

And those who spent the past seven years as propagandists for the one of the worst, and needlessly blood-soaked, presidencies in American history, have such a fabulous record of self-righteous wrong-headedness that they needn't be taken seriously at all.

So John McSame is out then, right?

Talk radio republicans like we have here, no need to name names, questioning anyone's patriotism is rich. They do one thing for the country -pay their taxes- and they complain about it.

Liberal definition of patriotism: Throwing eggs at an SUV load of Cub Scouts en route to the Berkeley post office with support packages from home for the U.S. troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Korea, Japan, Italy, Spain, Somalia...

Here's what Klein's boss had to say the other day:

Time managing editor Richard Stengel says: "My whole view was there's more information out there than any time in human history. What people don't need more of is information. They need a guide through the chaos."

It's a losing battle to expect original journalism from Time Magazine. That's not what Stengel is about. He wants his writers to lead us rubes wherever it is *he* wants us to go. I report, you decide.

Joe,

Frankly, I think you're on fire and on-target this morning.

The inquisition against Obama's patriotism is a smear campaign of the worst sort. Not only has he forcefully articulated the sincere depth of his patriotism, his life story is a compelling example of the American dream.

And I am beginning to believe that conservative and cynic are nearly synonymous identities in American politics today. A standard rebuttal to universal health care from many of my colleagues goes as follows, "You want universal health care? Talk to the Canadians about how spectacular their health care system is (with a thick layer of sarcasm)."

Wouldn't the patriotic individual put due faith in American ingenuity and know-how, enabling us to build a far better health care system than our neighbors to the north? The United States government has a long history of overachievement. Why should we throw in the towel when 46 million uninsured citizens are hanging in the balance?

James from LA (anyone remember that old show "James at 13"? -- that was a great show back in the day. . . .):

They may indeed tune us out, but that wouldn't be anything new. I guess I've sort of taken the image from "Network" on digby's page to heart. We need to shout our dissatisfaction -- to say we're mad as hell and we're not gonna swallow vomit anymore.

We all know that Republicans "work the refs" -- in fact, that's what this column is about, in a way. I think it's important to let columnists like Joe know that we know what's going on, and that we ain't falling for it.

As a famous philosopher said: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice. . . we won't get fooled again."

Joe's conscience, his morality, his professionalism, dedication to truth and a "decent respect for the opinion of mankind" ought to be the primary
motivators behind his writing.

To the extent these factors do not prick him adequately, that's where we come in (as I see it, anyway).

At a minimum, it lets the outside world know that if this is what is being dished out, we're not buying.

The loon left has been chock full of anti-patriots, as a democrat party platform (when not domestically pandering to the Congressional swine ala John Murtha and Jake Pickle), for DECADES.

You can try and try to wash that bigoted McGovernite stench from your history (he didn't want to fight for "those people" either) by invoking LBJ on civil rights or Kennedy on Cuban fiascoes -- but does that yellow dog really hump any Moore?

Sixth months of Skippy O'Bonger screaming I'M THE NEW & IMPROVED PATRIOT does need free the slaves, protect the free, or un-enslave the minds of our youth from years of liberal anti-American brainwashing in our major media and "public" education systems.

But enough about Albany.

Given reverend Obama's clear & present history of loathing our troops and way of life really makes one lament for the days of Scoop Jackson and Sam Nunn.

Now that you find yourself being bludgeoned with your own weapon perhaps you can begin to understand why some of us are sensetive on the subject.

Consider this phrase from the linked article: "cultural relativism and radical multiculturalism?"

What does he mean by "radical multiculturalism"?

Might he be objecting to:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances.

The degree to which today's conservatives twist our founding story into unrecognizability and then insist that conformity to their view is required in order to claim the mantle of patriotism is a wonder to behold.

I'm glad to see that your thinking about such matters.

Another perspective to explore when thinking about 'patriotism' as a concept is to compare it to 'family-values'. Are these not both specifically used as a means to exclude people from consideration as representing 'real' Americans? And don't you more than occasionally find yourself tempted to engage in the same style of thought?

It's certainly worth exploring.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080406/ts_nm/olympics_torch_britain_dc;_ylt=AkKGGHTc9Q_uNVCaNvjltNdg.3QA

Speaking of patriotism.

I got ya, SF. with you all the way. I'm just trying to figure out how we can make some headway somewhere.

From Joe's link Peter Wehner sez: Joe Klein has waded into ugly waters. Let’s hope he can make his way out of them before too long.

Kind of amusing, yes? What's to be lost by throwing Joe a rope without a brick attached?

BTW, SF, I'm not familiar with "James at 13." Is it something I ought to download and watch?

Somewhere along the way patriotism has come to be defined by questioning others patriotism.
It is simply a tool for attack.

Liberals have confused their navel-gazing, pencil pushing, business bashing, troop spitting self-loathing with actual patriotism for years.

Could be learned, or a basic DNA defect. Sounds like a research job for the United Nations.

I say we start with 12 years of undated EU funding, and a free press pass to the Harvard oil legacy campus.

I think it's silly to say that one ideology is more patriotic than another. I wouldn't go down this road. Why not just talk about which position on an issue you prefer or about which candidate is better informed on a given issue and so on?

The real problem with modern conservatism is not its relation to what might be called the traditional conservative ideology (no such connection exists, as far as I can tell) but the fact that modern conservatism is a form of mental illness, as is evidenced by the ravings of the conservative posters here.

I just came across an interesting piece the psychology of modern conservatives, by the way. It's worth a read. (Link)

Here is how it works. Ed Schultz calls McCain a warmonger. Therefore it follows that Obama is questioning McCain's patriotism.
From The Weekly Standard
"to call someone a warmonger is to say that person doesn't care about the troops and the sacrifices they make. It's no different than questioning McCain's patriotism"
http://tinyurl.com/4w9om5

It is simply a weapon anymore.

Those of us on the Left who have been continually called unpatriotic by the likes of QH and Obamish for years now, understand it to mean disagreeing with anything a Republican president does, especially with respect to starting a war on a nation that did nothing to us.

However, by definition patriotism is usually seen as a better form of nationalism which is more about celebrating a nation's values and so on. Joe's argument is simply, from what I can see, that the US is based on the values of philosophical liberalism, rather than conservatism. If you look at who the founders claimed influenced them, like John Locke for example, I think he is correct, even if his argument is not fully developed.

I agree with TomT as to the undesirability of casting views on a given issue as more or less patriotic.

The problem with movement conservatism is that it evaluates policies by their adherence to the politically correct party line, as determined by Rush Limbaugh, Grover Norquist, and Karl Rove. I suppose that it's not a particularly patriotic way to operate, but "unpatriotic" is way down the list of negative adjectives for that kind of thing. "Dangerous" and "counterproductive" get the point across just fine.

I'm really uncomfortable with calling Social Security privatizers "unpatriotic." Hostile to experience, reason, common sense, and empiricial study, perhaps, but not particularly unpatriotic.

All that said, if Joe is of a mind to write pugnacious columns taking aim at the flaws of the GOP, it's a welcome development. In a world where Karl Rove has a column in Newsweek, we really need some pro-reality fighters in the MSM.

Say Joe's definition of patriotism, from best Time-AOL-CNN accounts: We need many more liberal elites in the press, public office, and the private campus (their legacy domain, as endowed by Maureen Dowd) -- and all Republicans west of Hartford and east of Damascus should be burned at the stake.

Have I missed anything?

Not to get sidetracked but QH none of us disparage what I'm certain was your honorable service in the WACs
I really wish that you would have a little respect for a guy who flew 35 combat missions in the Army Air Corps and won the Distinguished Flying Cross.

There are many forms of patriotism. Not all are just.Extremes on either side are bad for the morale of our country.We are ONE country correct.Dissent over the war in Iraq is a just form of patriotism.As long as it does not hurt the very people keeping this country free and safe.The war in Iraq is just. Rumsfield mismanaged this war to a point of incompetance.{by the way,I am a conservative.}Limbaugh is not a good example of a conservative.Coulter is not.There are many more on your side {libs}that are trying to hurt our country with extreme rhetoric.Many mistakes have been made in Iraq.Those mistakes are being corrected and we are [trust me} routing al-terrorists in Iraq.The terrorists are praying for a obama or clinton victory.Why do you think that is?Yea mistakes have been made but you do not tuck tail and run in the face of evil.Dont be such a WIMP joe.Some things are worth fighting for.

Liberals should be shamed back to shrill, strident Belgium where they belong (and would be much happier).

America has suffered long enough, with their incessant International ANSWER whining, Kos Klown carping, DOD second guessing, legacy socialism, anti-family mantras, and basic ungrateful Soviet style mole attitudes about all things United States, for which any reasonable person would be grateful (maybe even a sober Kennedy), for being blessed by being in such a wise and wonderful nation.

The United States is not perfect, and to paraphrase Winston Churchill "is the worst of all forms of government -- except for every other kind."

There are liberal alternatives, of course: 11% unemployment and racist rancor in France .. Butchering of press and students alike in Iran .. Burning whole villages and farms in Zimbabwe .. Mass rape and slaughter in Sudan .. One working light bulb per 1 million people in North Korea .. Involuntary immolation of monks in Nepal, Tibet, Burma .. Reverend Wrong's intellectually stunted hand-sitting "congregation" .. Hillary's historical personal Fantasyland .. Al Franken's stark troop bashing .. Code Pink's gutter treason .. Cindy Sheehan's chavezian lunacy .. George McGovern's myopia .. Jiminy Crater's religious bigotry.

Liberals indeed run down America almost as easily as Bin Laden -- expect the domestics have a much longer if less effective record of near total destruction.

But enough about Howard Dean.

"extreme rhetoric" - not to be confused with "free speech"

Some people like to say that "freedom isn't free" I prefer to say that if not exercised regularly it will tend to atrophy.

FROGMAN: we can all agree that not putting at least one space after the period at the end of the sentence is unpatriotic.

Did Drudge link to this? FROGMAN smells like he crawled over from that swamp.

"I really wish that you would have a little respect for a guy who flew 35 combat missions in the Army Air Corps and won the Distinguished Flying Cross."

Wasn't Bush 41 in the Navy?

Although there's a need to defend Obama against the charge that he's unpatriotic, I don't think it serves anybody's interest to question others' patriotism, or claim to be more patriotic.

Whatever the immediatre source of the idea of a more perfect union, the idea of perfection as being without fault has much to do, I expect, with Jesus telling his followers to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect." But as Marcus Borg has pointed out,* this would be more correctly translated "be compassionate, even as your father in Heaven is compassionate." My idea of "improvement," after all, might be very different from yours - perhaps we can be closer to agreeing on what it means to become more compassionate.

* Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time.

Republicans are liberals in an academic sense. They are the fruit of the economic liberals who helped define the early shape of democratic capitalism. Freedom and liberty is very much about freedom from the King and his court. Free trade, the middle class, limited government, lower taxes, and so on, those are liberal ideas. The conservatives, in the days when liberalism was first being articulated, argued in support of the continuance of the monarchical system, where there are no rights for individuals, economic or otherwise. That system contained the wisdom of the ages the conservatives argued.

Liberty is one of the cornerstone values of liberalism. Some liberals have argued that the government can bring more liberty to individuals, the positive liberty argument.

Others, argue that negative liberty is the best policy. Essentially, they are both liberal arguments, and arguments about the role of the federal government in the national economy, I would argue.

"...starting a war on a nation that did nothing to us..."

Ahem.

The 9-11 REPORT (read your dusty copy) states that Saddam -- like neighboring Iran and Syria -- aided & abetted terrorists, including Al Quedans in Taliban camps, for DECADES.

He was a TERRORIST, unchecked, and deservedly unloved.

Baathist THUG does not mean overtaxed PATRIOT, to be sure.

Obama seems downright ASHAMED of being an American, of wearing an American flag, of acknowledging an American tradition -- but he takes great Time and comfort in wearing a Muslim head dress when touring overseas?

Not only do I question his patriotism, I question his judgment.

I'm with you SF. I'm just wondering how far constant bashing is going to take us without some kind of more constructive strategy to go along with it. Jes' saying. At some point, don't they just tune out?

Posted by James, Los Angeles | April 6, 2008 11:57 AM

I'm all for positive reinforcement -- when it can work. In observing these people here for about a year now, I haven't seen any evidence that it works with them. In fact, I'd say the exact opposite is true. Look at Cox -- the darling of Swampland for many of you. The more some of you try to give her positive reinforcement, the less her work product becomes worthy of positive reinforcement. She is now, by far, the worst of the regular contributors here (the weasely Carney contributes so seldom that he doesn't count). The problem is these people are getting feedback from many other quarters -- peers, superiors, book publishers, friends, the politicians they cover. Some of that feedback comes in forms -- money and slabs of BBQ ribs and access to information -- that we can't compete against, by the way. We're just one group, and the more what we say sounds like the stuff they get from the other groups, the less possibility it has of influencing their behavior. Moreover, we aren't just trying to influence these people with what we say here, but rather, influence the people who influence them. Joe Klein doesn't care much what people say in the comments, or elsewhere on the internet, about him, but maybe one of his pals, or his editors, or the pols he talks to, does. It's a complex system -- too complex, I think, to manipulate, given the scarce amount of information and leverage we have, by cleverly dealing out praise and condemnation.

"Wasn't Bush 41 in the Navy?"
When he panicked and ditched his plane killing his co-pilot? Yes that is correct.

"Obama seems downright ASHAMED of being an American, of wearing an American flag, of acknowledging an American tradition -- but he takes great Time and comfort in wearing a Muslim head dress when touring overseas?"

Even if there was a consistent pattern of Obama not wearing a pin, on a certain day, and there is not, those are techniques or symbols used to enhance the feeling of patriotism. They are not patriotism itself and patriotism is a feeling of pride in certain values. To be unpatriotic you have to be opposed to the values the country stands for. What would you say those values are?

I just checked Pete Wehner's resume. In addition to working for W's propaganda shop, he's also worked for Bill Kristol, Bill Bennett, and the Pods. That's the grand slam of fail, yet we continue to listen to these idiots why again? In most professions, if you were as spectacularly wrong as often as that crew has been, you would have been out of work a long time ago.

Martin Gale:

Great points. There's another one, too.

I post here because -- for whatever reason -- Joe is held out to be the "voice of the left" on the skewed cable outlets and elsewhere. A lot of what motivates me is a desire to not have words put in "my" mouth.

Liberalism (in the current non-academic sense of the word) is no more patriotic than Conservatism, although I believe that it is more rational and effective. And we shouldn't buy into the idea the Bush, Cheney, and all the others are conservatives. They claim to be conservative, but true conservatives - to be fair to them - believe in sound fiscal policy and are very careful about going to war.

Good for you, Joe!

joe wishes he was a true liberal like the rest of us who call bs on him on a daily basis.

"I'm with you SF. I'm just wondering how far constant bashing is going to take us without some kind of more constructive strategy to go along with it. Jes' saying. At some point, don't they just tune out?"

James, weren't you essentially decrying the begining of silly season just yesterday regarding Hillary and book bags? They can't tune out, don't you get it? This is the new paradigm and they have to deal w/ it, there's no fall back for them, their industry is dying, it's this or nothing. Press on HH, press on. This is how you fight back. Haven't you noticed that the only decent posts here are essentially posts they've been shamed into posting?

By all means lets talk about patriotism Joe. Lets talk about the military's recruiting woes, lets talk about lowered standards, waivers for criminal record and mental issues, lets talk about reduced recruitment targets, and lets talk about the fact that, despite all of this, the military still can't meet it's recruitment goals. Lets talk about recent comments from Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or statements to the effect that plans to increase troop numbers in Afghanistan cannot go forward due to lack of sufficient troops. So why are we talking about flag pins again? Because the next time a conservative between the ages of 18 and 42, especially the males, brings up crap like flag pins, the next words out of your, or anyone's mouths should be 'Why aren't you serving, your country is in TWO wars, and arguably losing both, where is YOUR patriotism.

By all means lets discuss 'patriotism' but lets talk about REAL patriotism. Flag pins aren't patriotism, service to country in a time of war is...you are wrong Joe, it is time to question conservatives 'patriotism'. Conservatives want to bring up this crap to obfuscate the fact that the true test of patriotism has come...and they have failed.

The "ism" that is most unfortunately ignored in America today is PRAGMATISM, the spirit of adopting whatever works. Ideologues of the Right and Left have decided that whatever gets people riled up is much easier to exploit than the tedious detail of making things work.

So, pick your issue, and there are destructive simplifications and red flag distractions paraded as policy on both the Right and Left sides of the issue. Because the Right has had a longer grip on power recently, they have done the worst mischief.

My great mistake in evaluating American society was assuming that pragmatism was baked into our culture. But it took only a few decades of affluence to turn us into a "generation of swine" as Hunter Thompson put it. Only adversity is likely to shock us back into pragmatic conduct, and we will soon face great adversity.

QH, we are waiting for a personal display of patriotism from you. When are you shipping out to Iraq? I will pay for your body armor.

The only way we will face great adversity is if we let McBush III win the election and the only way that will happen is if Hillary refuses to be a patriot and concedes the primary to future President Obama!

QH is just a chickenhawk who sits at home and plays on his xbox or with his wii while people are forced to fight in an illegal war and die for cheap oil and halliburton. The only war QH is interested in fighting is the war on common sense and common decency.

The only way we will face great adversity is if we let McBush III win the election

Sadly, no, StewieZ. Resource depletion, particularly petroleum shortages, will begin to bite the US in the a$$ in just a few years. Economic collapse, either slow or fast, is an inevitable result of our debt addiction and the dishonesty of large segments of the business culture. Climate change is also likely to impact us significantly as droughts and storms become more severe.

There will be plenty of adversity for the next few Presidents to cope with. The question will be how long it takes us to rediscover pragmatism and cast aside the stupid ideology-based politics of our unhappy recent past.

"Those who believe that government can act more ably than free individuals and markets in all--or even in most--circumstances are not patriots, but fools, and the same is true of those who only believe in the supremacy of the market."

Both the government and the market are tools of "free individuals" exercising their will. If the tools aren't working well, it's because individuals using them aren't all that wise or all that free. By blaming the tools you just evade he core issue.

HH - it is biting us now, due to Bush blocking alternative energy at the beheast of his oil buddies at ExxonMobil. When Obama is president he will develop new energy sources that will solve the problems of resources especially globally as he will engage the entire world in diplomacy so that togther we can make sure that there are resources for all the people - that is true social justice on a global scale and something we all should strive for. Plus, Obama will help curb the greed of business by introducing the governmental regulations that would have prevented the banks from screwing over the people tricked into subprime loans, etc. Pragmatism will be Obama's new middle name. You will see.

Yes we can!
Obama 08!

"Both the government and the market are tools of "free individuals" exercising their will. If the tools aren't working well, it's because individuals using them aren't all that wise or all that free. By blaming the tools you just evade he core issue."

And 'free individuals' are exercising their free will by not enlisting in the military to fight this war. Now if they'd only have the common decency to shut the f@ck up about 'patriotism'.

"So, pick your issue, and there are destructive simplifications and red flag distractions paraded as policy on both the Right and Left sides of the issue. Because the Right has had a longer grip on power recently, they have done the worst mischief."

Gonna have to disagree to a point. Granted that both sides can indulge in 'red flag distractions', however the inherent militarism of the right makes for potentially larger and more disastrous blunders no? I can't really think of a red flag based policy on the left that can have as disastrous a consequence as a misguided invasion. But you are right about pragmatism...Americans are being forced back to it, so I'm not sure flag pin dustups will work anywhere except hillbilly America.

When Obama is president he will develop new energy sources that will solve the problems of resources

Sadly no, StewieZ. It is simply too late to avert the coming Great Depletion of petroleum. We would have had to spend the two trillion we blew on Iraq on ramping up nuclear power and alternative energy a decade ago to minimize the transition. Obama can't put more oil into the ground, or un-invade Iraq. It is too late. You mustn't let your love of Obama obscure the harsh truth.

No, Obama can save us from ourselves. You have to believe - do you not listen to what he has to say? He will lead us through this time and it is good that we are running out of oil because it will force us to make new energy and stop global warming before it is too late. Do you drive a hybrid or ride your bike or use the bus like me? It is time for all of us to do our part and an inspirational leader like Obama will motivate us to do what is right. Once he gets us out of Iraq and raises taxes on the rich we will start to have the money we need to save ourselves from an energy standpoint. Will he do it in 8 years, no, but he will start us on the right track and his democratic successor will continue his legacy. Obama will carry out what Al Gore has laid out and history will remember great people like them who saved america and ultimately humanity.

It is time for all of us to do our part and an inspirational leader like Obama will motivate us to do what is right.

Well said, StewieZ! I'm tired of the endemic dishonesty of the BushCo era. I'm tired of people saying the exact opposite of what they mean. It is almost as though they have made an alternate reality out of falsehood. I am pleased that honest people like you have stepped up to speak the truth.

That is what so many of us do in our daily lives, stand up for the truth that has been squashed daily by Shrub and the pubes. What is this blog if not a forum where our journalists tell the truth daily and the truth tellers here in the comments sections speak the truths that the others need to hear? Every thread and every comment is a victory for the truth and a victory over Bush!!!! HH we are the victors!

Together we can!

Every thread and every comment is a victory for the truth and a victory over Bush!!!!

It's not so easy StewieZ. You may not believe it, but on some of these threads, there are mocking a$$holes who pretend to be critics of the foul Bush administration by deliberately posting caricatured versions of "liberal" talking points. Sometimes they get so confused in their arguments that they successfully attack the Bush administration. It is hilarious to read their stuff. Can you believe that people like this exist?

Joe:

I don't get it.

Does Barack Obama have a Patriotism Problem or not?

Patriotism is, sadly, a crucial challenge for Obama now. His aides believe that the Wright controversy was more about anti-Americanism than it was about race. Michelle Obama's unfortunate comment that the success of the campaign had made her proud of America "for the first time" in her adult life and the Senator's own decision to stow his American-flag lapel pin — plus his Islamic-sounding name — have fed a scurrilous undercurrent of doubt about whether he is "American" enough.

"In this campaign, we will not stand for the politics that uses religion as a wedge and patriotism as a bludgeon," he said on the night that he lost Ohio and Texas. But then he added, "I owe what I am to this country, this country that I love, and I will never forget it." That has been the implicit patriotism of the Obama candidacy: only in America could a product of Kenya and Kansas seek the presidency. It is part of what has proved so thrilling to his young followers, who chanted, "U-S-A, U-S-A," the night that he won the Iowa caucuses. But now, to convince those who doubt him, Obama has to make the implicit explicit. He will have to show that he can be as corny as he is cool.

So which is it, Joe?

Does Obama need to wear an Ol' Glory tie from now on, or does he just have to speak to Liberalism's values in public in order to solve the Patrotism Problem to which you devoted an entire column in Time Magazine? Are the Republican "corny" symbolism police to be feared forever, or will actual patriotism do?

Posted by HH | April 6, 2008 3:32 PM:

It's not so easy StewieZ. You may not believe it, but on some of these threads, there are mocking a$$holes who pretend to be critics of the foul Bush administration by deliberately posting caricatured versions of "liberal" talking points. Sometimes they get so confused in their arguments that they successfully attack the Bush administration. It is hilarious to read their stuff. Can you believe that people like this exist?

HH:

Thank you.

I know what you mean HH. Those people are Rovian operatives and trolls constantly at work against our goals of saving America from the GOP but thankfully there are commenters here who are thwarting them at every turn.

Keep vigilant, my brother!

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb sitting down to decide what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb"

America is a glorious and wonderful place. We have freedom of speech, freedom of the press, the right to bare arms, and a long list of rights going back to the very founding for some of them. It's a glorious, and wonderful place to live and be.

Is it wrong for me to think it could be even better? Is it wrong for me to belive we could improve our country further, make ourselves more close to perfection?

It is very unpatriotic to believe that 'we can't improve anything about this country anyway, so why bother trying'. Is it patriotic to say 'any change we attempt is going to be for the worse, so we shouldn't bother trying'. Is it patriotic to say 'sure there are inequalities, but we can't do anything about them?'.

Is it rational to claim that we already ARE perfect? is it patriotic to claim that everything's downhill from here? That we're at our peak, and can go no further? Is it?!

As for the people egging SUV's... how about the people killing doctors? Can we leave the fruit-bats and lug-nuts out of it? I mean, I don't believe that I should hold the murderers that kill abortion doctors against you, so don't you hold the weathermen or the egg throwers against me!

NO it is not wrong to move toward perfection. We have been rushing headlong away from perfection for 8 years but we are questioning it constantly which is our patriotic duty and by doing so have provided the foundation upon which the changes that will come from President Obama can occur and make this a more perfect union.

There would be no need to waste good eggs on SUVs if people would just stop driving them.

Clearly if Joe Klein thinks Obama has a patriotism problem then Obama has no problem with patriotism and this kind of attack will hopefully end once HIllary concedes the primary and Joe focuses a little more on McSame than he failing to do right now.

Just 'cause you're a nut who agrees with me doesn't make you any less a nut. Egging SUVs is stupid. Protests are one thing, but spitting on people, egging SUVs, damaging private and public property, these are bad things. Actions performed by nuts who cannot compromise, and whom it is useless to try to discuss things with.

Another bad thing is failure to support the troops now that they are at war, whatever you think about the war it's self you STILL gotta admit that those brave troops who are facing death daily deserve some respect...

The present problem with patriotism is, like with faith, liberals watched on the sidelines while conservatives wrenched it out of public discourse and redefined it in a distorted way to suit their ideology. Patriotism now seems to be a ideological tool to condition and mold the public to accept policies that are patently inimical to their interest and the interest of the nation. Even the media is caught in this net. Their failure to speak out truthfully post 9/11 and during the run up to the Iraq war is evidence. Their fear is understandable particularly in this season of remembering MLK Jr. He spoke out patriotically against the vietnam war and his popularity plummeted and his movement's existence was imperiled. Courage to do the right thing is an essential element of patriotism but liberals still need to get back into the discussion of the meaning of patriotism just as they have begun to do on faith.

If you respect the troops fighting the illegal war so much then why don't you go enlist?

Those of us who really respect the troops want them home in America living in peace but ready to defend us if someone attacks us, not to be spent dying so Cheney can have more dividends on his halliburton stock!

By protesting and calling out the wrongs done by this nation and those people who support those wrongs we practice the highest form of patriotism. We are right! Compromise is what allowed Shrub to become president in the first place. Not in 08. Not in 08, and concern trolls and pro-Hillary trolls, and pro-McLame trolls here will not change it.

Keep vigilant, my brother!

I prefer to consider myself your comrade, StewieZ. The mockery trolls aren't really much of a problem, because they are too stupid to grasp how easily they are foiled. If you engage one in a dialog you can usually get them to denounce themselves. They also don't understand that irony can be a recursive structure, and that they can easily get lost in the echoes. But what would you expect from someone incapable of honest discourse? These people are the dregs of the blogs, reduced to a fundamentally false existence, because they have no honest substance. Don't you pity them a little bit, StewieZ?

HH, well said.

See? You're a nut who cannot be reasoned with. There is nothing wrong with protests, of course. Just protest the war, not the troops. But here I am saying violent action is wrong, and compromise is good, and you attack me like a three year old who doesn't want to share his toy. I'm disgusted that the likes of you are in my party. It's a mister like you that puts the rest of us to shame. And you know what? Even though I say this, you'll still vote for the same person. I can insult you all you want, it won't change your choice. So your opinion doesn't matter, and you only serve to make the rest of us look bad.

Compromise is the only way to move forward... Which is why I support Obama (though I will vote for Hilary if it's her or McCain)

Comrade HH, I like the sound of that.

Those dregs of the blogs deserve no pity, they deserve the same derision we hold for Bush and his supporters. Nothing more.

All I know is that I take so much joy from knowing that they cannot stop our Obama and that they know they cannot stop our Obama and that their days of ruin are over and that we will marginalize them and there is nothing they can do about it! They laughed at us in 2000, HH, but now it is our turn, my comrade.

LeBlue - at least you support Obama which makes you OK in my book, even if you don't support the troops in the real sense of doing so. I agree with you 100% about not voting for Shrub III either, so at least while we disagree on some things, together we can save America!

Together we can!

Obama 08!

By protesting and calling out the wrongs done by this nation and those people who support those wrongs we practice the highest form of patriotism.

Well said, StewieZ! This is the kind of comment a mockery troll might make, thinking that it is a comical exaggeration. When they say things like this they are blissfully unaware that they are speaking the truth, so they actually end up supporting their adversaries. But then, what logical person would become a mockery troll?

HH - you assume those stupid Rovian mockery trolls are capable of making such a good argument, and that, my comrade, is a very wrong assumption.

All of know that the only people who make meaningful and correct comments smacking of the highest logic are the people who understand and support our ideals and live the philosophy of modern liberalism. Thankfully, that is 99.5% of the commenters here and that gives me hope for the future of America.

Those dregs of the blogs deserve no pity, they deserve the same derision we hold for Bush and his supporters. Nothing more.

Another weakness of mockery trolls is their tenacity. They compound their stupidity by never letting go of their mission. In this they emulate their corrupt leaders, clinging to falsehoods no matter how obvious the lies. The mockery troll never grasps the incongruity of defending virtue through unrelenting falsehood. What a debased existence to be a troll speaking endless lies! I almost feel sorry for them.

Excuse me mister... do you have a mind
Or are you so intelligent you have it made up for you
Excuse me mister won't you lend me your ear
Or are you not just blind but you cannot hear
Excuse me mister but is that anger that I see
All the hate on the radio, mister, who's could that be?

So excuse me Mister, but I'm a Mister too
And you're giving Mister a bad name, Mister like you
So im taking the Mister from out infront of your name
Coz it's the Mister like you that puts the rest of us to shame
It's the Mister like you that puts the rest of us to shame

Excuse me mister, can't you see me crying
You say you're a liberal but, you're the one who's hiding
Excuse me mister just take a look around
You're hate is the weapon our foes use, use to push us around

So excuse me Mister, but I'm a Mister too
And you're giving Misterr a bad name, Mister like you
So im taking the Mister from out infront of your name
Coz it's the Mister like you that puts the rest of us to shame
It's the Misterr like you that puts the rest of us to shame

Coz when you're rattling on the moderate gate
by then it's too late
Coz mister when you get there they won't ask, they won't ask
why you're so hazed
All you wanna know is that you sound crazed

So excuse me Mister, but I'm a Mister too
And you're giving Mister a bad name, Mister like you
So im taking the Mister from out infront of your name
Coz it's the Mister like you that puts the rest of us to shame
It's the Mister like you that puts the rest of us to shame

So do I HH, so do I. Not being able to see the truth that is so apparent due to being blinded by unfounded anger over perceieved injustices and the incessant preaching of lies by those with an agenda but who have the repsonsibility to spead the truth is indeed a debased existence. They feel that the more lies they spread and the louder than can trumpet their falsehoods and their empty promises the more successful they will be. It is shameful, is it not, for these people, these trolls, to be so out of touch with reality? If only there was some way to bring those poor souls here so they could learn the truth from my fellow comrades in arms here. If only...

Nevertheless, once we take back the White House the lies will cease.

All of know that the only people who make meaningful and correct comments smacking of the highest logic are the people who understand and support our ideals and live the philosophy of modern liberalism.

Yes, I know you are rightfully proud of your eloquence, but the mockery trolls are deeply frustrated by their inarticulate plight. It just eats at the insides of these trolls that they can't make a competent defense of what they believe. They rage at the fact that their heedless God gave them no suitable voice to express their boundless devotion to authoritarianism. So the mockery troll becomes a twisted creature of negation, chained to a false identity and wasting away on a thin diet of snark and sneering. What a pathetic existence! How could someone live this way?

Le Blue - is that a Mister Mister song? The 80's are over and good riddance to the Raygun years.

HH - I don't know how they go on living such a life when there is such a higher calling out there and so many fine examples of that calling that grace these pages on a daily basis. How sad to not be able to see the light that burns so bright in front of them? We must keep doing our part to take the scales from their eyes and bring them into the light that we bask in. HH, our logic can find a way for these poor souls, I just know it.

Togther we can!

Says the man who thinks HH is supporting him... You're being mocked by HH, and your blind obedience to your side is just as bad as an uber conservative's blind obedience... Anyway, I was born in the 80's. Anything wrong with the fact that I borrow someone else's eloquance?

They feel that the more lies they spread and the louder than can trumpet their falsehoods and their empty promises the more successful they will be.

No, dear comrade, you are speaking of ordinary ideological trolls. The mockery troll is an especially degenerate blog denizen. The mockery troll's entire output is deliberate falsehood aimed at undermining discourse by ridiculing the very concept of discussion. The warmonger troll, the plutocrat troll, and the racist troll all rank higher in blog status because they believe what they are saying. The mockery troll is lower than whale$hit because he does not even believe in discourse. His anti-dialogue is a negation of the purpose of a discussion forum. He writes to satisfy his own destructive narcissism. There is nothing lower than a mockery troll. Don't you agree?

But the wise man sees through your kind HH. Now kindly go away, and quit winding up the nuts. I know it's entertaining, and it's great for helping your side win, but quit it, it's annoying.

HH, our logic can find a way for these poor souls, I just know it.

I wish that it were so simple, but these mockery trolls are psychologically crippled. The deficiencies that drive them into their anti-existence are not easily remedied. There is no 12-step program for persons lacking the self-esteem to express their beliefs honestly in a public forum. Once a mockery troll has committed the identity suicide that consistently false posting entails, there is no easy way back.

it's great for helping your side win, but quit it, it's annoying.

Please tell me which "side" you think I am on.

I doubt StewieZ attempts to damage the lib from the inside was intentional. He just mouths rhetoric without thinking. It's a kind of identity suicide, but I prefer the term nut... a mockery troll to me is an active infiltrator, which is how YOU act HH.

Stop with the hating. Really. Stop. 'love thy neighbor'. Not 'love they neighbor unless they're of a different political party then yourself'

Now that I think about it, HH, you're probably not on any-side. You just wind up nuts. Which is win for you, but pisses me off, because I dislike nuts, and believe that without any nuts, conservatives and liberals would be able to get along.

Either no side, or you're a republican

a mockery troll to me is an active infiltrator, which is how YOU act HH.

Please explain how I am an "infliltrator."

without any nuts, conservatives and liberals would be able to get along.

Ten years before the American Civil War, abolitionists were considered "nuts." Prudent people, conservatives and liberals alike, understood that slavery was a fundamental part of the US economy and that it would be foolish and dangerous to abolish it.

Well, you insinuated yourself as StewieZ's friend, and wound him up more and more to make stupider and stupider statements. I believe StewieZ's probably sincere in his stupidity... He honestly believes that Barrack pees perfume, where as I think of him as a good man, but far from perfect.

You on the other hand, have no sincerity what so ever.

Though you might be playing double accounts shell game to see who you can lure out into saying stupid stuff, I doubt that possibility. Very different writing styles.

Ten years before the American Civil War, abolitionists were considered "nuts." Prudent people, conservatives and liberals alike, understood that slavery was a fundamental part of the US economy and that it would be foolish and dangerous to abolish it.

No, they were not 'nuts' they were pretty common... and Lincon won the election thanks to the middle of the road people saying it was time for slavery to go too. It was the economic conditions in the factory bearing north that ended slavery.

John Brown was a nut, and did a great deal of harm to the abolitionist's reforms. The other abolitionists were peaceful persons, and they were not blind, but argued effectively, and rationally, without spewing hate, though no doubt there were nuts among them.

A nut spews hate. If there had been more James Browns, we might STILL have slavery

Very different writing styles.

I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the Swampland postings of the locals before reaching false conclusions. I have never posted on Swampland under another ID. I believe that your interpretation of StewieZ's writing will cause him some consternation. But I leave it to him to explain himself further.

hell, if John Brown hadn't done stupid stuff the Civil War might not have had to occur, the south might have easily just knuckled down. He riled up the southern nuts though. Just like the Bacon rebellion made things worse too.

I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the Swampland postings of the locals before reaching false conclusions. I have never posted on Swampland under another ID. I believe that your interpretation of StewieZ's writing will cause him some consternation. But I leave it to him to explain himself further.

I did say it was dubious that you and StweieZ were the same person. Even if both of you are hurting democrats. I note that you do not deny my charges on you though.

And... StewieZ? Take your 12 year old head out of your ass, look around, and turn your brain on... if you have one. Read the lines, and read between the lines. I used to act like you, once upon a time. Then I wised up.

John Brown was a nut

No more than Jefferson Davis. If your definition of nut is someone eager to shed blood over ideology, then the current Bush administration is chock full o' nuts. That is the big difference between those who support and those who oppose the war in Iraq. The responsibility for bloodshed is entirely on one side. Your depiction of the BushCo opponents as ugly extremists is false. Peace advocates are not dangerous extremists, nor are they unpatriotic.

HH, stop calling StewieZ a mockery troll.

He is a typical, representative Obama supporter who thinks, acts, and talks just like every other Obama supporter.

He is one of those people who got brainwashed when he joined that cult called college.

Their brains get rotted from drugs when they go to college. That is why is called higher education. As a result they come away with stupid, unpatriotic ideas like making a Muslim President.

Patriotism is very simple. It means fireworks on the 4th of July, wearing a Flag for a bandana, and voting for whoever wants to kill the most arabs. Hello, people. Barack Obama does not qualify!!!

But I don't want to fight today. I am very sad. A great man today died. Charleston Heston, who tried to protect the my right to defend our compound with grenade launchers. The liberals have finally done him in and they are going to be taking his guns away from his cold, dead hands.

I am going to be very sad while I watch my Cops reruns tonight.

The democrats voted for the Iraq war too, I would like to note. Nor did I call peace advocates dangerous extremists. I called those who bomb buildings in their own country for peace dangerous extremists. (See The Weathermen). You would agree with that statement, no? Nor do I call anyone unpatriotic.

No, there's a difference between going to war, and committing acts of terrorism, though I disagree with the Iraq war, as I have stated before. And Bush IS a nut, that statement I agree with. But one does not fight nuts with nuts.

Jefferson Davis? You mean the president of the confederate states of America? Yeah, he was about just as much of a nut as James Brown.

But I don't want to fight today. I am very sad. A great man today died. Charleston Heston, who tried to protect the my right to defend our compound with grenade launchers. The liberals have finally done him in and they are going to be taking his guns away from his cold, dead hands.

Hmmm... HH by any other name would still smell of crud. Grenade launcher. Nice touch. Mockster. You're the mockery troll. HH, Time4Ignorance.

StewieZ's just a dimwit. Any other charasmatic leader would have snapped him up, and if Obama did not exist he would probably would be dumb for Hillary.

Here's an idea for the dead tree edition, Joe. How about an article showcasing AG Michael Mukasey's tear-jerking "patriotism"?

You're the mockery troll. HH

Le Blue Dude, I do not post under other handles. People abusing multiple identities here are committing vandalism against the blog. The webmasters have access to the IP addresses of all posters here and I expect they will act appropriately if this mischief continues.

Ok. maybe you're not using multiple handles. or maybe you are. I have no way to tell. You're still a mockery troll. As is mr. time4ignorance.

And there ARE proxy systems, you know.

"hell, if John Brown hadn't done stupid stuff the Civil War might not have had to occur, the south might have easily just knuckled down"

Fascinating.

Anyway, to all the nuts, fools, and trolls out there....

Listen up to what I have to say
It’s something that you don’t
hear everyday

I’m sick and tired of fighting this way
I don’t know why I bother anyway
The hatred flows and the hatred wanes
You only got yourselves to blame

I don’t understand the things that you do
I don’t know why you can’t tell the truth
You say that you stand by me
But I do not stand by you

I’m a liberal, and a democrat too
I but I am filled with shame to be allied to you
Insanity, you blind unthinking fool
You putter around, a conservative’s tool

Don’t try to bate this wise man
I can see all the cards in your hand
I know what is the lay of the land
The arguments I understand

I listen, and have learned how to show
The truth and lies that you don’t know
There is a place that only I go
It puts me above your dark hole

You make a mockery of my side's name
You put me and mine to shame
You don’t know to feel my pain
So now it’s time for you to explain

Is it that you are dimb?
Or were you just influenced by him?
I won’t chose a fight that I cannot win.
Knowing the truth ain't a deadly sin

Neither side is right, and neither is wrong
That’s the reason I sing my song
By the time you realize that I’ll be long gone
This martyered flag is mine to don

Compromise it’s the only one thing
You gotta stand there, and say what you mean
If you must you should start to sing
Without cooperation we don’t have anything

The middle moves, the middle sways
Hatred won’t make it follow what you say
Preach to the people, or to the state
But remember you must compromise to get your way

So scratch my back, an’ I’ll scratch yours
Tit for tat and some manicures
Or you can be righteous and terse
Then you cannot stand at my side of course

So tell me, drop your lies
What is it that your double-talk does disguise?
Defend the position to the wise
I watch this with careful eyes

... Say what you mean, please. HH, StewieZ et al. Let's drop all pretense

Yeah, James Brown kinda increased the tension. The whole slavery-thing was headed for collapse anyway, all he d