April 16, 2008 1:32
Hillary's Trustworthiness -- And the Pundits'
The poll fronted by the Washington Post today contains some really interesting results. But you wouldn't know that by reading the article written about it, which focused almost exclusively on the less-that-breaking news that Democrats have what you might call a "trust issue" with Hillary. Here's how it's framed: "Most See Dishonesty: Poll Shows Erosion Of Trust in Clinton."
The poll asked a lot of questions about honesty and trustworthiness, but the proof of this particular claim really stems from a single question: "Please tell me if the following statements apply to Hillary Clinton or not: She is honest and trustworthy," with a 39-58 yes/no split in the answers. Pretty dramatic, to be sure, especially when you factor in a poll from a month earlier that shows Clinton being deemed honest and trustworthy by a margin of 52-42.
But there's no other data to contextualize this drop-off. Just this month's poll and last month's, which makes it hard to tell if the fall is part of a trend, or an aberration, or even if it's not the worst she's done. There's also no context from how other candidates might have done -- or did -- when the question was posed about them. The Post has decided to hold "Questions 30 to 35 ... for future release" -- the Clinton "trust" question was #29 -- so perhaps in question #30 Obama so the same drop off in trust, which might say something about the mood of the electorate in general, or maybe his trustworthiness has soared, which would support the idea that trust is an issue for her in particular. If they didn't ask about Obama's trustworthiness at all, well, that's a problem in and of itself.
Yes, the poll did ask about relative trustworthiness, and by that measure, Hillary also does poorly. But, here's the thing: She has done poorly in relative terms since February of 2007, when she was leading Obama as a presidential candidate by 13 points. Indeed, at that time, she did even worse, trailing Obama at 29 to his 34, before bottoming out in March at 28. (Obama's seen a steady climb in the margin by which he beats her -- though one suspects that has less to do with a growing trust in Obama himself than with the lack of competition for the title "more trustworthy than a Clinton.")
Even taking as a given that Clinton is, in fact, less trustworthy than other candidates, is it even a problem? Think about it this way: The day after Bill Clinton admitted he lied about the Lewinsky affair, 61 percent told pollsters that they believed he had "tried to mislead" the American public; his job approval rating actually went up. Before he admitted to having an affair, 42 percent of those polled said he was not "honest enough" to be president. After he admitted having an affair, the number rose... by zero: 42 percent said he was not "honest enough" to be president. A lot has changed since 1998, but I think one thing has stayed the same: "Honest enough" to be president is, in fact, "not very honest."
Evidence for the relative importance of "honesty" in a president is also available in this very poll. Hillary Clinton tanks in the direct honesty question and in relative honesty, but look elsewhere, for instance, to the answers to this question: "Regardless of who you may support, who do you trust more to handle (ITEM) - (Clinton) or (Obama)?"
In "international trade agreements," on "health care," and in "the U.S. campaign against terrorism," Hillary beats Obama. They tie on handling the war in a Iraq, and Barack edges past her by 3 points when it comes to the economy. For someone who isn't trustworthy, she seems to inspire a fair amount of trust. I say only "a fair amount" because the real story about these numbers is how close they are. Neither candidate completely overwhelms the other when it comes to trust in handling actual issues.
Of the five categories, four put the preference for one candidate over the other within a margin of five -- and the margin of error (+/- 3). The one area where one candidate is preferred over the other by numbers outside the margin of error is where Hillary beats Barack: health care (51-41).
If I were writing the headline off of these results in particular -- and information turned up by this poll in general -- it would not be "Most See Dishonesty," but "Most See a Campaign." And not even a particularly divisive or souring one at that: 53 percent see the race as "mostly positive," 41 see it as negative and that's with a whopping 84 percent saying they're playing "close" attention to the race. And, whatever the pundit class says, voters think it's still a race. Yeah, they think she could pull it off. And they're the ones who get to decide that, after all.
Beyond the "who do you trust" specifics I just cited, evidence for Hillary's second chance also stems from the fifty percent of Democrats who say -- contra MSM -- that the length of the race doesn't matter. Combined with the 17 percent who say that the long race is helping their party, only the 32 percent have lined up with the wise men who say it hurts. Fifty-five percent think Clinton should stay in the race. Oh, and 53 percent think "the candidate you support win[ning] the nomination, even if the race goes on into the summer" is more important than "the race end[ing] as soon as possible."
It would be statistically impossible for that 53 percent to be made of up nothing but Hillary supporters (she is still losing to Obama, after all) -- one has to conclude that there are Obama supporters who are at least sympathetic to Hillary's candidacy, and, by extension, that she might just have a chance of winning some of them over. Her chances of doing that are even better if one believes another trend made clear by the poll: "strength and experience" are -- despite what you've heard -- really more important to voters than a "new direction." The split between the two priorities in the most recent poll is 49-43, and "new direction" has only come out on top once since last July, and then it was by one point.
Hillary can also take heart in the 37 percent who don't have a problem with superdelegates picking "the candidate who they think is best," though -- depending on how things go in the next few weeks -- she might feel even better about the 46 percent that think superdelegates should vote for whoever is ahead in the popular vote total.
Pundits were wrong with they crowned her inevitable last summer. Now they've declared her "impossible." And they could be wrong again.
Reader Comments (47)
Hillary: We need to retreat from Iraq.
Obama: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP.
Hillary: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, and ignore Iran.
Obama: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, and buy some quickie real estate in Chicago.
Hillaroid: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, and blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate.
O'Bonger: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, and declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior.
Hillaroy: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior, and build a Lieberry extension with Red Chinese restaurant contributions.
Otis: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior, build a Lieberry extension with Red Chinese restaurant contributions, and surrender to Vermont.
Hipplery: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior, build a Lieberry extension with Red Chinese restaurant contributions, surrender to Vermont, and offer statehood to Belgium (the Walloon section).
Officious: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior, build a Lieberry extension with Red Chinese restaurant contributions, surrender to Vermont, offer statehood to Belgium (the Walloon section), and federalize man-mutt sex west of Sacramento.
Horsehips: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior, build a Lieberry extension with Red Chinese restaurant contributions, surrender to Vermont, offer statehood to Belgium (the Walloon section), federalize man-mutt sex west of Sacramento, and outlaw the Marines.
Oodles: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior, build a Lieberry extension with Red Chinese restaurant contributions, surrender to Vermont, offer statehood to Belgium (the Walloon section), federalize man-mutt sex west of Sacramento, outlaw the Marines, and nuke Israel.
Horatio Hornblower: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior, build a Lieberry extension with Red Chinese restaurant contributions, surrender to Vermont, offer statehood to Belgium (the Walloon section), federalize man-mutt sex west of Sacramento, outlaw the Marines, nuke Israel, and trade Utah for Gaybec.
Orifice: We need to retreat from Iraq ASAP, ignore Iran, buy some quickie real estate in Chicago, blame Bush for Monica and Pardongate, declare the President of Canada our new Secretary of the Inferior, build a Lieberry extension with Red Chinese restaurant contributions, surrender to Vermont, offer statehood to Belgium (the Walloon section), federalize man-mutt sex west of Sacramento, outlaw the Marines, nuke Israel, trade Utah for Gaybec, and keep Jesus out of bully pulpit political juxtaposition.
Hillarude: Like you said.
Oestes: Same to you.
Posted by QUESTION HILLARY
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April 16, 2008 1:40 PM
She's got almost no chance to win, and IMHO she shouldn't be the Dem nominee: she's just too damned comfortable attacking those to her left, and doesn't have much of a track record of standing up to the GOP (and the corporate interests for which they stand) over anything besides her and Bill's reputations.
But if the Washington Post is going to ask questions like this about one candidate, they should ask them - and publish the results - about all of them. And if they've got some longer trendline than just this poll and the last, they should publish that too. Fair's fair.
Posted by low-tech cyclist | April 16, 2008 1:44 PM
Hillary is suffering with the untrustworthiness tag for some self inflicted wounds that we all know, but also by tying herself so closely to her husband's Presidency.
Slick Willie has morphed into Slick Hilly according to a large swath of voters. Obviously that isn't her fault per se, but by standing by him and defending him through all of the Lewinsky lies, she looks complicit in the big lie of his 2nd term.
Posted by swarty
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April 16, 2008 1:45 PM
There is NO trustworthiness that can be attributed to Hillary "BILLARY" Clinton!
Posted by KYJurisDoctor
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April 16, 2008 1:49 PM
What gives with these endless posts, Ana? I thought you were the short, snarky one, not the would be David Broder of this group?
Posted by TomT | April 16, 2008 1:50 PM
If you ask me the people who are chosen for this survey are idiots. If you know anything about her "health care" experience, you wouldn't trust her. She did absolutely nothing for it and in fact caused way more harm then good.
Between McCain and HRC, I'm not sure which would cause more harm to our country as president.
Posted by lsumarkb | April 16, 2008 1:52 PM
If only the Democrats could be as super-swell as John McCain.
Posted by McCain Fluffer | April 16, 2008 1:53 PM
AMC: ..the title "most trustworthy than a Clinton."
Erm...'more trustworthy', maybe?
...one has to conclude that there are Obama supporters who are at least sympathetic to Hillary's candidacy, and, by extension, that she might just have a chance of winning some of them over.
Dunno. Plenty of people think that Clinton can run as long as she wants to, even if it makes no sense for her to do so. Barring a major gaffe on Obama's part - and the whole brouhaha surrounding Obama's remarks on what makes people place a greater degree of importance on certain issue is not really 'major' - it's gonna be hard for Clinton to pull Obama supporters.
Posted by grape_crush | April 16, 2008 1:53 PM
One of the things that I find interesting is that Obama supporters have taken to using GOP attack lines against Hillary.
What they fail to notice is that there is a concerted effort on the part of the right to turn Michelle Obama into the next Hillary. Thus we have the National Review with a horrible picture of Michelle on the front cover calling her "Miss Grievance" and people like Victor Hanson Davis at the Corner writing screeds against her every day for being "defiant," "bitter", "angry," etc... These themes are found throughout the righty blogosphere which can not stand to see a strong female.
I think Obama supporters should take care attacking Hillary because the same exact things are being done to Michelle. You'll begin to see her called shrill, bitchy, angry, and a ballbuster just like Hillary was demonized in the 1990's.
In fact I think it would be a great article for Anna to write comparing/constrasting how the right created the Hillary stereotypes and how they are starting in on Michelle now.
Posted by TeresaKopec | April 16, 2008 2:04 PM
You don't suppose that her 'trustworthy' numbers were affected by her lame attempts at pretending to be a good ol' boy shooting squirrels do you?
Posted by Paul Dirks
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April 16, 2008 2:10 PM
Teresakopec,
Your logic escapes me. I think you are saying that we should be nicer to Hillary because right wing nut jobs are being mean to Michelle Obama the way they once were to Hillary when she too wasn't running for President in 1992.
I don't follow that at all.
Posted by swarty
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April 16, 2008 2:15 PM
To be serious here for a moment, mark me down as one voter who would have rated the Tuzla Tigress as "trustworthy" before this campaign began, but thinks of her as a snake now. I'm not surprised other voters feel the same way.
Posted by TomT | April 16, 2008 2:16 PM
Just because Obama's only been acknowledged to be more trustworthy than a Clinton (a low standard indeed), it does NOT follow that he is NOT objectively trustworthy.
Besides, anyone so ready to accept McCain's self-declared sincerity just might not be the best person to opine on the relative trustworthiness of others.
Posted by FlownOver | April 16, 2008 2:32 PM
AMC, sinking her teeth into some substance. I like it. Keep it up.
Posted by Cliff | April 16, 2008 2:32 PM
TeresaKopec
One of the things that I find interesting is that Obama supporters have taken to using GOP attack lines against Hillary.
For God's sake, Teresa, enough already.
First an unsupported assertion stating Obama supporters are emulating right-whingers, then a list of right-wing attacks on women, and then some gratuitous concern-trolling.
What do you think you are really accomplishing with all this?
Posted by grape_crush | April 16, 2008 2:33 PM
anyone so ready to accept McCain's self-declared sincerity
oooh...that's going to leave a mark!
Posted by Paul Dirks
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April 16, 2008 2:37 PM
Shorter Ana: Hillary's futile adventure is good for ratings, circulations, and web site hits, so let's pretend she has a shot and keep the good times rolling!
It's no biggie, though. Obama seems to be made of teflon and having Hillary, McCain, and the press all ganging up on him seems to make him stronger and stronger and the rest of them more and more irrelevant.
Posted by RKA
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April 16, 2008 2:47 PM
When I saw the title of the post, I was hoping that someone did a poll about the Trustworthiness of Pundits. Has this type of poll ever been conducted? I would love to see the results of such a poll.
Posted by McCain Fluffer | April 16, 2008 2:48 PM
I think its fine for Hillary to stay in the race as long as she an afford to (which means she should have gotten out a couple months ago, but that's another story). I just think she needs to run a respectful and issues oriented campaign. The reason that Clinton and her supporters use to justify her staying in the race is that Obama might stumble, or implode. Fine. Maybe he will. Maybe there will be a smoking gun quid pro quo in the Rezko case. Maybe video of Obama standing up in his church shouting "Amen" as Wright shouts "GD America!" will come out, and Obama will be compromised. At that point Clinton would become the obvious choice for nominee. Fine. But if she is the one trying to make him stumble by throwing the kitchen sink (and how many sinks does she have in that kitchen anyway), then she's not looking out for the party's best interests.
It was pretty clear to me until the bitter NON-troversy that Obama was running his campaign in PA to loosen the ground for the GE first, and maybe to pull an upset second. Clinton has dragged the campaign back down to her level. Again, fine because Obama seems more than capable of handling it, but who does she think she's helping with this stuff.
Posted by superterrificdelegate | April 16, 2008 2:49 PM
g_crush writes:
"For God's sake, Teresa, enough already.
First an unsupported assertion stating Obama supporters are emulating right-whingers, then a list of right-wing attacks on women, and then some gratuitous concern-trolling.
What do you think you are really accomplishing with all this?"
Funny stuff. Sir, is it your contention that Obama supporters here and elsewhere are not using language and lines of attack against both Clintons that would be perfectly at home at any number of wingnut blogs? I could document the offenses with ease. Beyond that, this race is fast becoming less about the two candidates and more about the opposing views of their supporters. On the one hand, you have Obama supporters, intoxicated with the idea of a super candidate. Intelligent,eloquent, handsome, and the embodiment of the multi-cultural future we all wish were possible but has so far been unattainable. They see in Obama the hope for what's possible but ignore the details of his record and his misstatements that don't conform to their vision. On the other hand, you have Clinton supporters who view their candidate as the steady, competent, tested leader we need to actually accomplish the goals most Democrats share regardless of who they support. They know she's not as exciting or as charming as her opponent and carries with her some serious baggage. They are willing to accept her baggage because they see her as a person who will work hard everyday to actually solve problems. Clinton's people (full disclosure, I'm firmly in this group) think this election should not be fought over the soft issues which are clearly Obama's strength. They want this election to turn on the hard issues of policy differences and solutions that separate us from Republicans. Somewhere along the line (IMHO, it was when Bill Clinton was called a racist for the "fairly tale" comment), the two sides of the democratic party split. Now it's nothing but verbal flame throwing and racial motivation exams. Obama's supporters consider Hillary the anti-christ for the sin of opposing Obama. Clinton supporters view Obama as a smug, more literate version of GWB. Inexperienced, too sure of his own wisdom and dismissive of those that disagree with him. All of this is fed and nurtured like a prize winning rose by the geniuses in the media. The end result will be another four years in the desert and the election of John McCain.
Posted by ny nick | April 16, 2008 3:09 PM
Ana - as you've implied, holding on to some of the numbers in this poll may end up being the real story. Are they simply hoping for headlines on more than one day and parsing out the results? If any of the succeeding numbers are on similar subjects to the first set, then offering them on successive days can influence how each set is viewed. Why don't you invite Mark Blumenthal to give us some instruction on this.
Posted by KathyR | April 16, 2008 3:20 PM
It's nice to see a post that actually examines a poll. And isn't it amazing how rare that is?
RKA, according to swing state voters he's not made of teflon, but yes, according to a lot of Democrats and the MSM, he is. Which is all very good news for John McCain.
TeresaKopec, great point about Democrats copying right-wing attacks on Clinton, even while those same kind of attacks are already starting on Michelle Obama. And of course the acceptance of sexist attacks by the Obama campaign and many Obama supporters will make it much harder to counter those attacks when they are directed at Michelle Obama; they've lost the high ground on this issue. Although I am optimistic that many of the Obama supporters who are ignoring the sexism that is hurting Hillary Clinton will start noticing that sexism when it's targeted at Michelle Obama. And then we can start working together to get rid of it.
Posted by Rose | April 16, 2008 3:23 PM
superterrificdelegate,
I'm amazed at the lengths people go to to defend this "bitter" statement. Obama was asked a direct question and he answered in a condescending way. That's it. So much of what's been said since is about turning the tables and blaming Hillary. Obama supporters are quick to point out polls that show this isn't hurting him in PA but they are less quick to point out those same polls show Obama getting trounced in PA by John McCain. There are two parts to getting elected. Defeating Hillary does not mean, contrary to popular belief, that he will waltz to the White House. Republicans still exist and they will do to Obama what Clinton could not. They will destroy is record, expose his hypocrisy and define him in a way that makes him thoroughly unelectable.
Posted by ny nick | April 16, 2008 3:29 PM
ny nick: ..is it your contention that Obama supporters here and elsewhere are not using language and lines of attack against both Clintons that would be perfectly at home at any number of wingnut blogs?
No, it is my contention that Teresa made an unsupported statement and then proceeded with a bit of concern trolling. My point is that we - as the ones on the brighter side of the political spectrum - need to stop the seemingly endless, divisive attacks...hence the question at the end.
But more to the point you wish to make: Yes, some supporters of both Obama and Clinton haven't been behaving nicely towards the other side; critics of Clinton get accused of misogyny, critics of Obama get accused of racism, blah, blah, blah..
This is the point at which, as a fervent supporter of a candidate, you will say something along the lines of, "b-b-but candidate X's supporters are worse because..."
Frankly, I don't care to engage in an infinite tit-for-tat about who did what to whom and who did it more. Maybe a month or two ago, but not any longer.
Obama's supporters consider Hillary the anti-christ for the sin of opposing Obama. Clinton supporters view Obama as a smug, more literate version of GWB.
Wrong, and wrong.
All of this is fed and nurtured like a prize winning rose by the geniuses in the media.
Correct.
The end result will be another four years in the desert and the election of John McCain.
Thus my 'funny' comment, directed at Teresa, for contributing to a realization of that possibility.
Posted by grape_crush | April 16, 2008 3:40 PM
Americans do not want to be lied to by their leaders and politicians. We teach our children not to lie and steal so why would we want to elect a lying Politician into the Whitehouse, someone we cannot trust and something we have had enough of the last 8 years. Clinton's latest story of learning to shoot "ducks" behind the cottage her grandfather built, sounds and smells a lot like "Bosnian Sniper Fire". Then we have Bill stating "falsely" the following -- B. Clinton "[s]ays at campaign railly in Corydon, Indiana that throughout seven stops in North Carolina, 'Everywhere I go there are all these people with signs, saying I’m not bitter - I’m not bitter.' ABC’s Sarah Amos says his comments were well-received but 'not entirely accurate.' For instance, she says there were no signs at his rallies saying 'I’m not bitter,' as he claimed. " This Political couple has no Shame! America, we have to ask ourselves, which is more eggrecious, a politician telling us the hard truth, the things we may not want to hear but need to hear OR a politician telling us a Fantasy/Lie, like the Bosnia Sniper Fire fabrication and "duck" shooting PERFORMANCE, things we did not need to hear because not Truth, and in reality is a betrayal of the public trust and a deeply flawed Character Issue. America needs and will demand a President we can trust -- who is basically honest, forthright, and Authentic which we have in the body of Barack Obama! However, in light of the current fire storm and questionning and psychoanalyzing about the "bitterness" of small town America, maybe Obama has done us some good and we can finally bring or shed some light on just how bitter (or not) we really are and better yet -- the "Root Cause"! In regards to Obama's Cling to guns comment, "cling" came after the word religion in "people cling to religion and guns" -- the guns got looped together with the religion, I am sure, due to brain Fog after months and hours of non-stop campaigning. I say this because I too cling to my religion for salvation and strength. Nothing wrong with clinging. I believe that If he was a little more clear headed he might of said instead something like cling to religion and turn to guns as a normal outlet from the frustration and hopelessness found in small-town America.
Posted by bacalove | April 16, 2008 3:42 PM
ny nick: Defeating Hillary does not mean, contrary to popular belief, that he will waltz to the White House. Republicans still exist and they will do to Obama what Clinton could not. They will destroy is record, expose his hypocrisy and define him in a way that makes him thoroughly unelectable.
Let's try that another way, Nick:
"Defeating (Obama) does not mean, contrary to popular belief, that (s)he will waltz to the White House. Republicans still exist and they will do to (Clinton) what (Obama) could not. They will destroy (her) record, expose (her) hypocrisy and define (her) in a way that makes (her) thoroughly unelectable."
Sounds reasonable, yes? The Repubs aren't gonna lay down if Clinton gets the nomination, are they, Nick?
Basing your choice of candidate on who you think is stronger against the Republican smear machine is absurd. Why would you let them pick your candidate for you?
Posted by grape_crush | April 16, 2008 3:52 PM
g_crush,
"Obama's supporters consider Hillary the anti-christ for the sin of opposing Obama. Clinton supporters view Obama as a smug, more literate version of GWB.
Wrong, and wrong."
What was that you said about unsupported statements and concerned trolling? Nevermind.
McCain will go where the Clintons cannot and if Obama is the nominee, he will lose. Michigan, Florida, Ohio and PA will be the tests but unless Obama can win three of the four, he's toast.
Posted by ny nick | April 16, 2008 3:52 PM
g_crush,
"Repubs aren't gonna lay down if Clinton gets the nomination, are they, Nick?"
No, they certainly will not. That said, she's got a twenty year head start on this fight. Republicans like to say how much they relish the opportunity to go against her but you have to ask yourself this question, when was the last time a Republican defeated a Clinton in an election?
Posted by ny nick | April 16, 2008 3:58 PM
It's interesting that Obama keeps "evolving" his version of the Wright dust up.
Now he's telling Jews he decided to privately make known his objections to Rev Wright. That might be true but only Obama and/or McCain could get away with that kind of retrograde explanation of an event.
It will be very interesting watching the media wars re the Obama/McCain match this fall: Fox/WSJ/Drudge/Limbaugh, et al. against MSNBC/Newsweek/Dailykos.
The folks I really feel sorry for are Ana, Michael and Andrew Sullivan, who adore both Obama and McCain.
Me, I just want a Dem in the White House and since HRC is out for the count, I no longer care who it is.
Posted by Southern Bell | April 16, 2008 4:13 PM
Bacalove,
No matter how much spin you want to put on this, I doubt calling potential voters "bitter" is a winning strategy. The people who defend and explain this statement are solid Obama supporters. I wonder how many voters in Ohio or West Virginia or Kentucky would enjoying being labeled as "bitter". And before you accuse me of twisting the man's words, look at the context of what he said. Obama was asked why some voters didn't support him. Rather than make some positive statement about how he would try and reach these voters, he put the blame on them. They were the ones with the problem, not him. Obama seems to believe he is infallible. I think he's not. We will find out soon enough who's right.
Posted by ny nick | April 16, 2008 4:15 PM
ny nick,
If you choose to view Obama's contents as condescending, fine. Most of the people in PA and in the country did not as it turns out, which I take as a good sign that voters are less easily distracted perhaps as they have been previously. Perhaps I'm being overly hopeful. Also, I lived in the Mon Valley for six years in the nineties, so I saw first hand that the Clinton legacy had pretty much zero impact on the severe economic depression that still clings to that area. And yes, many people are bitter about it.
Please keep in mind that Hillary picked the fight with Obama over his comments. That was her choice. She could have let the pundits do the hits for her, or even her surrogates, but she chose to engage. In an earlier thread about this (I think AMC's What's the Matter with Obama post) I said that Obama had dealt Hillary a pair of threes and she had gone all in. It turns out she had a pair of deuces, but she still went all in. Contrast that to the public silence from Obama and his campaign when Hillary was taking the heat for her serial lying about Tuzla. I don't attribute this to any altruism on Obama's part; one of the cardinal rules of politics is that if your opponent is in self-destructing don't get in the way, but no one could accuse him of piling on either.
Posted by superterrificdelegate | April 16, 2008 4:28 PM
ny nick
What was that you said about unsupported statements and concern trolling?
That Teresa had engaged in those activities, Nick. Do try to keep up.
But, again to the point you wish to make: I'll gladly vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination...Gladly, because the thought of the continuation of the Bush presidency scares me. But I currently favor Obama because, in my opinion, he's run a better campaign.
In light of the above, I can say that my first 'wrong' is supported.
As for the second 'wrong', would it be unfair to say that not everyone who supports Clinton thinks Obama is a carbon-copy of Dubya?
See what happens when you over-generalize, Nick?
McCain will go where the Clintons cannot and if Obama is the nominee, he will lose.
Sooo...As a Clinton supporter, are you saying that she and McCain are pretty interchangable? I don't think that's true, Nick.
Oh...what was I saying about unsupported statements and concern trolling?
..she's got a twenty year head start on this fight.
Or twenty years of old, negative baggage and about seven years of fresh, new negative baggage...It's all in how you see it.
..when was the last time a Republican defeated a Clinton in an election?
Meaningless. When was the last time an Obama was defeated by a Republican in an election?
Feel free to argue the "b-b-buts" on that one without me.
Posted by grape_crush | April 16, 2008 4:29 PM
g_crush writes:
McCain will go where the Clintons cannot and if Obama is the nominee, he will lose.
"Sooo...As a Clinton supporter, are you saying that she and McCain are pretty interchangable? I don't think that's true, Nick."
Sooo, apparently you missed the point entirely.
McCain, because he IS a Republican and doesn't give a hoot if it hurts your feelings or not, bring up things about Barack that the Clintons cannot. For instance, I wonder if Obama ever sold cocaine to anyone in Chicago when he was using it as a younger man? Just what DID Obama mean when he said he and GWB were not that far apart on the war? Why, when he was running for the senate, wasn't he sure which way he would have vote on the Iraq resolution?
Posted by ny nick | April 16, 2008 4:42 PM
ny nick: Sooo, apparently you missed the point entirely.
No. I just don't think that you made a good point, Nick, especially after agreeing with me that the Repubs are gonna attack whoever the Dem candidate is...I mean, it's not like a list of negative questions can't be assembled around Clinton's record.
Please don't confuse my disagreement with your point with not understanding it, Nick.
Posted by grape_crush | April 16, 2008 5:09 PM
G_Crush,
Silly me, that stuff about Clinton and McCain being interchangable must have been some sort of dream sequence.
Look, that the Republicans will go after Clinton is not news to anyone but she's been through it before. All they can do is attack her. With Obama, they can attack him and define him in ways that will infuriate you but plant seeds of doubt in the minds of voters that matter to them. They know they only need to win in a few key states and hold the south. They will make Obama play defense with Jewish voters in Florida, play defense with rural voters in Michigan, Ohio, PA, West Virginia and
parts of the west. The best way to look at it is this. Clinton probably can't get much beyond 50% of the popular vote but she can get to 270 electoral votes. Obama can get either 45% or 55%. The problem is, there is no in between for him. Either he transcends the attacks and wins in a landslide or he wins only his narrow base and loses in a landslide.
Posted by ny nick | April 16, 2008 5:23 PM
Grape Crush: Sorry about my "unsupported comment" that Obama supporters were using right wing talking points against Hillary. I thought that was pretty obvious to any sentient being. But maybe you were a child in the 1990's. I sure remember the GOP trying to paint her as a lying, manipulative, ball cracking bitch. And I see those same comments coming from Obama supporters on this blog all the time.
Hillary lies no more or less than any other politician including Obama or McCain in my opinion. I have seen her called every name in the book on this blog and the comment sections of other blogs by Obama supporters.
I think it is amusing that Obama supporters talk about her "scorch earth" tactics while they call her an unprincipled, shrill, lying liar with every other breath. I'll be honest I think the criticism of Obama by other Democrats is much milder than what Hillary has faced and I think many of the main lines of attack come straight from the Rush Limbaugh school of politics against Hillary.
And I see them beginning to be used against Michelle.
Posted by TeresaKopec | April 16, 2008 5:31 PM
BTW, Grape Crush, I'm sorry if expressing support for both Democratic candidates comes under the heading of "concern trolling" in your book. I didn't realize we had to pick on candidate and say "screw you" to the other.
It is perfectly legitimate to note that Michelle Obama is getting her name dragged through the mud in the same way as Hillary did in the 90's.
Posted by TeresaKopec | April 16, 2008 5:33 PM
Southern Bell, good point. Only Obama and McCain are allowed "retrograde explanations."
Most people are really missing the main point about the bitter/cling comment: it could easily turn out a couple of million evangelicals who don't really like McCain, but who will - after being prompted by 527s - be both terrified and angered at the prospect of an Obama presidency. And since people have stopped talking about Obama winning by a huge margin, a couple of million votes will matter. Most voters never believed the Swift Boat ads, but enough of them believed it to have a big impact. Obama could have lessened the problem by simply saying "I'm sorry. It was unacceptable to second-guess peoples' reasons for exercising their constitutionally protected rights to bear arms and worship God." But he would rather hold his ground, go back to his old Hillary-is-terrible thing, minimize the fall-out now and just cling to hope in November.
Like pretty much everyone else here, I'd much rather see any Democrat win in November than McCain. But it is scary to see how little interest Obama has in running a general election campaign. He is outspending Clinton 5 to 1, he has a double digit lead in the latest national poll, the party establishment is on his side, yet he is still obviously very worried about Clinton. I say obviously because it is the only explanation for his refusal to admit his mistake. And it's true that in the short-term it would hurt him to admit it; the MSM would then talk about it more, his readiness for a general election campaign would be more questioned, and it would be described by everyone as what it is: a gaffe. But it would help mend fences with the evangelicals and give him a chance in November. Unfortunately, that's not his priority.
Honestly, I don't get it. I really can't see how Clinton can win, but I'll keep hoping as long as Obama is afraid of losing the nomination.
Posted by Rose | April 16, 2008 5:40 PM
Rose -- You and I agree on most stuff. I'm not sure though that I see it as a problem that Obama won't apologize for the "cling" stuff (though I think he is wrong). It is the same reason Hillary won't apologize for her war vote. As soon as one of them apologizes, they will be painted as "weak" and "forced to capitulate" etc... Think of all the times Kerry was forced to try and apologize for something. The media just bites you in the butt for it. Better to come out swinging sometimes even when you are wrong...
Posted by TeresaKopec | April 16, 2008 5:56 PM
Rose,
Obama has to keep defending himself as long as Hillary keeps attacking. Her whole argument for the nomination is to paint him as unelectable. If she attacks and he doesn't defend/counterattack she tells the super dels that he's weak.
Hillary didn't have to pounce on Obama's comments. She did and it is blowing up in her face. Here's a piece by the president of the American Hunters and Shooters Association announcing their endorsement of Obama. Today.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ray-schoenke/hunters-and-shooters-supp_b_97028.html
Posted by superterrificdelegate | April 16, 2008 6:34 PM
"As soon as one of them apologizes, they will be painted as "weak" and "forced to capitulate" etc." - I think this was/is minor enough to apologize over. He basically did that with Rezko - although he made some misleading statements - and it worked quite well. Apologizing is ironically less effective on bigger issues, like war votes.
superterrificdelegate, since I don't really see how she can win the nomination, I believe it's more important for Obama to actually be electable than be perceived as electable. For example, if the Wright thing hadn't come out yet Obama would be perceived as more electable. But in reality he would be even less electable than he is now, because if it broke in October he could lose by 15 points. This is the time for Obama to actually try to win the Presidency, not just look like he can win it.
Posted by Rose | April 16, 2008 7:20 PM
Couldn't one conclude that some Obama supporters want him to be the nominee, "even if the race goes on into the summer"? I'm not sure why you equate "the race goes on into the summer" with Hillary winning. Nothing in the question is specifying Hillary, so those 53% could support either Hillary or Obama winning even if "the race goes on into the summer".
Posted by alcatholic | April 16, 2008 10:03 PM
Maybe we should send HillBillary a memo? I gave it a shot based on her memo to Obama. http://angryafrican.net/2008/03/13/a-memo-to-hillbillary-please-dont/
Posted by AngryAfrican
|
April 16, 2008 11:24 PM
بلوتوث - -
مقاطع بلوتوث - -
يوتيوب - -
مقاطع يوتيوب - -
فديو يوتيوب - -
فيديو يوتيوب - -
افلام - -
موقع يوتيوب - -
youtube.com - -
يوتيوب عربي - -
منتديات - -
مسنجر - -
مدونة - -
العاب بنات - -
العاب باربي - -
Mzaeen’s Weblog - -
يوتيوب - فيديو - بلوتوث - -
تحميل افلام - -
تحميل افلام
تحميل افلام
افلام
افلام
مشاهده افلام
تحميل افلام - مشاهده افلام
افلام - تحميل افلام - مشاهده افلام
مركز تحميل - -
تحميل - -
تحميل صور - -
تحميل ملفات - -
مركز التحميل - -
صور - -
العاب لعب العب - -
لعب - -
العاب - -
لعب العب - -
hguf - -
العب - -
منتديات برامج نت - 70 - ثيمات -
خلفيات - العاب الجوال - ثيم رومنسي مهند ونور -
ثيم مهند وهو حاضن نور - ثيمات رومانسية للبنوتات -
ثيمات رومانسية بنات - ثيمات حب حلوة -
ثيم مهند التركي - ثيم نور -
ثيم حب نور ومهند - ثيم مسلسل لوست -
ثيمات افلام ومشاهير - ثيم نور ومهند -ثيمات لميس -
ثيمات مسلسل نور -ثيم مهند ونور -
ثيمات رومانسيه -ثيمات E61 -
ثيمات بنات رومنسيه -ثيم سنوات الضياع -
ثيمات طبيعية -ثيمات N92 -
ثيمات للبنات2008 -ثيمات N95 -
ثيمات نوكيا -ثيمات n80 -ثيمات n93 -
ثيمات اطفال -ثيمات منوعة -تصميم ثيمات -
ثيمات بنات -ثيمات طبيعة -ثيمات كرتون -
ثيمات بنات N73 -العاب نوكيا -
ثيمات رومنسية نوكيا - ثيمات الجيل الثالث -
23 - 23-p-3 - 23-p-6 -
نغمات -برامج نوكيا -برامج جوال -
برامج نوكيا N73 -نغمات -
برامج الجيل الثالث -العاب جوال -العاب نوكيا -
ثيمات2008 -نوكيا n95 -
نغمات ماجد المهندس -ماسنجر8 للجوال -الحارس الذكي n73 -نغمات عربي -نغمات MP3 -ماسنجر للجوال -65 - 65-p-3 -
65-p-5 -65-p-7 -رسائل جوال -مسجات -
رسايل وسائط -sms -
مسجات نصية -وسائط Mms -
صور وسائط -وسائط رومنسية -صور رومانسيه -
وسائط رومانسيه -مسجات شوق -وسائط بنات -رسائل حب -
وسائط حب -رسائل غرام -
وسائط حب رومانسية -وسائط شوق -وسائط حب وعشق -
وسائط حلوة -مسجات عتاب -
رسائل عتاب -مسجات نور ومهند -
مسجات وسائط -مسجات رومانسية -
وسائط حب رومانسية -مسجات اسلامية -
مسجات حب وغرام -رسائل غرام -
رسائل حب -مسجات حب -mms -وسائط ررومنسية روعة -رسائل مقالب -رسايل جديده -وسائط mms منوعة -
مسجات رومنسية -رسائل جوال -مسجات شعرية -وسائط دينية -مسجات استهبال -
مسجات حلوه -جميلات العرب -اليسا -
صور طبيعية -صور قلوب -
صور رومنسية -بلوتوث مزايين -
البوم صور مزايين - صور ماسنجر -
وسائط - صور حب -صور بنات -
صور بنات للمسن - العاب مكياج و ميك اب -
العاب ازياء - العاب مغامرات -
العاب بنات - العاب تلبيس بنات - العاب باربي -
العاب بلياردو - العب - العاب -
طرب وفن -طرب -فن -
10 -10-p-4 -
10-p-7 -10-p-13 -
10-p-10 -10-p-15 -10-p-20 -10-p-25 -
10-p-26 -فيديو كليب -فيديو كليب عربي -
فيديو كليب انجليزي -جميلات الهند -جميلات الاجانب -
صورة ميريام فارس -صوره شيماء علي -صور من كليب مهند ورولا -
فضايح مهند -فضائح -فضيحة مهند بطل مسلسل نور -صور نور -
صور منزل نور -صور ولادة نور في مسلسل نور التركي -
نجمة مسلسل نور التركي -صور Beren Saat خطيبة يحيى -صور يحيى -مهند شاذ -
اغاني سنوات الضياع -صور مهند ونور رومنسية -صور رومانسية نور ومهند -
صور مهند بطل مسلسل نور التركي -نهاية مسلسل نور -صور اليسا -
فيديو كليب تامر حسني - هي دي -العروسة فيديو كليب ماجد 2008 -صور فاردن وكارينا -
صور مي عز الدين 2008 -نيشان مقدم العراب -صور لميس -
صور لميس ويحيى -لحن اغنيه مسلسل سنوات الضياع -نؤاس اموري ياشمعتي -
صور بنت سعودية -صور اميشا -نجمة بوليوود -
صور لميس بطلة مسلسل سنوات الضياع -صور لميس نجمة سنوات الضياع -
سنوات الضياع -صور مهند بطل مسلسل نور -
يارا صدفة -تحبني ولا تحب الدراهم -
فضايح استار اكاديمي -هيفاء وهبي -
صور كاميرون دياز -احلام في العراب - البوم راشد و أحبابه -دومينك حوري الخاشوقة -
نانسي عجرم -فستان اليسا -
مركز تحميل - تحميل مفات -
تحميلت صور - تحميل -
صور - صور مضحكة -
باسكال مشعلاني -نانسي عجرم -
الين خلف -امل حجازي -
ديانا حداد -دارين حدشيتي -
ماري جوزي حنين -صور ديانا كرزون -
اريام -جميلات العرب -
مريام فارس -صور برق ورعد -
اليسا - صور طبيعية -
صور قلوب - صور رومنسية -
صور ماسنجر -وسائط -
صور بنات -صور بنات للمسن -
صور اشجار - صور حب -
صور شواطىء و بحار - صور سحـاب وغيوم -
صور أطفال - صور حيوانات -
صور إسلامية - صور منوعة -
صور خيول - صور متحركة -
صور رجالية للتصاميم - صور نسائية للتصاميم -
صور اطفال للتصاميم - صور شلالات وانهار -
صور قلوب - صور منوعة للتصاميم -
صور من تصويرك - صور وسائط MMS -
صور مرعبة - صور الأنمي -
صور رومنسية - صور دببة -
صور هدايا - صور سيارات -
صور خلفيات - صور ورد و زهور -
وسائط - صور شموع -
جميلات الاجانب - صور مسن كرتونية -
جوجو - اشلي سيمبسون -
هيلاري دوف - افرل لوفين -
جيسيكا البا - جورج كلوني -
جينيفر لوبيز - جينيفر آنستون - كرستينا اغوليرا -
ساندار بولوك - جوليا روبرتس -
آنجلينا جولي - تاركان -
برادبيت - توم كروز -
كيانو ريفز - مارك ولبرغ -
ريكي مارتن - انريكي ايجلاسيز -
جميلات الهند - صور حزينة -
صور الكاركتير - صور رجالية للتصاميم -
صور احترافية للتصاميم - صور تصاميم -
صور تصاميم وتواقيع - صور ماسنجر -
صور قلوب للمسن -صور مسن كتابية -
منوعات ماسنجر -صور مناسبات واسلاميات للمسن -
صور ايدي وارجل للمسن -صور اطفال مسن -
صور فنانين للماسنجر -صور بنات للمسن -
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المنتدى العام مواضيع ساخنة ومثيرة ترجمة
ازياء موضة فساتين
مكياج ميك اب اكسسوارات ديكور غرف نوم
اثاث طبخ مطبخ حلويات اكلات معجنات تغذية صحة طب
شعر قصايد خواطر عذب الكلام
قصص روايات طرب رجة مسابقات صرقعة صور بلوتوث و مقاطع فيديو بلوتوث العاب فلاش صور انمي افلام انمي عدسة التصوير
افلام عربية و مسلسلات مسلسلات اجنبية تلفزيونية افلام عربية و افلام اجنبية و مسلسلات تلفزيونية برامج كمبيوتر فوتوشوب ثيمات - العاب الجوال - خلفيات برامج نوكيا - نغمات - برامج جوال رسائل جوال - مسجات - رسايل وسائط - sms مسنجر - برامج ماسنجر - توبيكات دروس التصميم
ملحقات التصميم
بلوتوث
-
برامج نوكيا -كورة -صور -
مسنجر - طرب -
العاب -
قصص - مكياج - موضة
- ديكور
- وسائط
- برامج
-افلام -
مقاطع فيديو -
مواضيع ساخنة -ثيمات
جوال -نغمات -
افلام انمي -خواطر -
العاب جوال -افلام
عربية -ازياء - صور
انمي -
سياحة -مسلسلات اجنبية -
شعر -اناشيد -
توبيكات -رسائل
جوال -تصاميم
شات
شات الرياض
بنت حواء
بنت نجد
عروسة
عروس
العاب شمس
صور رومنسيه
صور جميلة
احلى رومانسيه
منتديات بيت حواء -
ازياء - -فساتين زفاف 2008 -
موضة -فساتين -
6 -6-p-4 -6-p-9 -6-p-12 -أجمل فساتين -
فساتين بنات -فساتين ناعمة -
بيجامات ناعمه -فساتين قصيرة -
قمصان نومفساتين -
ملابس ناعمه -بجامات بنوتات -
فستان زفاف -ملابس اطفال -أكسسوارات -
ملابس 2008 -أزياء صيفية -فساتين -موضة 2009 -
أزياء بنات حلوة 2008 -موضة 2008 -
كولكشن صيفي -فساتين سهرة 2008 -فساتين زفاف 2008 -
موديلات فساتين -فساتين سهرة 2008 -
فساتين روعة 2008 -شورتات -
ديور -عروس -أزياء بنوتيه -ازياء -
فساتين السهرة -قمصان النوم -بلايز -
ازياء خطيره -ازياء نواعم -
أزياء للحوامل -أزياء حوامل -
اكسسوارات -ميك اب -
مكياج -72 -72-p-3 -72-p-5 -
72-p-7 -72-p-9 -
قصات شعر 2008 -مكياج ناعم -صور سلاسل -
مكياج -MaKe Up -
تسريحه روعه -العروس -
دبل الخطوبة -ساعات -
نقوش حنه -صور مكياج -
مكياج بنات ناعم -احلى التسريحات -
احلى القصات -اسرار العطور -
صور ميك اب -صور مكياج -
ميك اب روعه -صيف 2008 -
ميك اب -صور تسريحات 2008 -
تسريحات شعر قصير -تسرحيات شعر طويل -
تسريحات وقصات شعر -تسريحات شعر -قصات شعر -
شنط ماركات -صور مكياج -
تسريحات 2008 -صور احلى مكياج -
مكياج عروس 2008 -أحزمة بنات -
بطاقات زواج -ميك اب ناعم -
مكياج للبنات 2008 -مكياج للبنات -احلى مكياج بنات -
مكياج بنات -ميك اب 2008 -
تسريحة العروس -تسريحات شعر -تسريحات عرايس -
احدث القصات -صبغات 2008 -نضارات شمسيه -
تسريحات -مناكير -
اكسسوارات للبنوتات -احذية كريستيان -
احذية ديور Dior -سلاسل قلوب -
ديكور -غرف نوم -اثاث -
73 --73-p-3 --73-p-5 -
غرف نوم -غرف نوم بنوتيه -ديكورات -غرف نوم وردي -اكسسوار حائط -ورق جدران -
كوشات عروسه -ديكورات ماء -
مطابخ روعة -عالم البنوتات -
عالم البنات -ديكورات روعه -
غرف اطفال -مسابح -مكاتب وجلسات -مغاسل منزليه -
مخدات رومنسية -مغاسل حمام -
مخدات -صور ديكورات مطابخ -
ديكورات مطابخ 2008 -احلى ديكورات مطابخ -
ديكورات حمامات -اثاث 2008 -صور فلل -
ديكورات صالة -قصور واثاث -
معجنات -حلويات -اكلات -مطبخ -
طبخ -38 -
38-p-6 -38-p-9 -38-p-12 -38-p-3 -
38-p-14 -صور حلى -
صور حلويات -عمل بوفيه -
حلويات الجلكسي -حلا جالكسي بالصور -
حلى وحلويات -صور كيك -
صور تورتة - حلويات -اعشاب -
تغذية -رجيم -
طب -صحة -
71 -71-p-5 -
71-p-3 -71-p-7 -
التدليك -المساج -
جميلات العرب -اليسا - -
صور طبيعية -صور قلوب - -
صور رومنسية -بلوتوث مزايين - -البوم صور مزايين - -
صور ماسنجر -وسائط - -
صور حب -
صور بنات -صور بنات للمسن - -
العاب مكياج و ميك اب - -العاب ازياء - -العاب مغامرات - -
العاب بنات - -العاب تلبيس بنات - -العاب باربي - -
العاب بلياردو - -العب - -العاب -
العاب - -العاب فلاش - -66 - -
العاب بنات - -العاب أزياء - -
العاب مكياج - -العاب ميك اب - -
العاب باربي للبنات - - العاب باربي - -
العاب تلبيس - - العاب بنات - -
مكياج ملكة - العاب مكياج - -العاب اميرة - مكياج وميك - -
مكياج باربي كين - العاب - -لعبة مكياج الأميرات العاب - -
مكياج الفتيات العاب - -لعبة كاونتر سترايك -
لعبة مكياج فتاة جميلة -مكياج الورود لعبة مكياج - -
العاب أزياء - العاب بنات -العاب مكياج و ميك اب العاب لعب جديدة وحصرية - -
لعبة سوبر ماريو - -دراجون بول للتحميل لعبة - -
العاب باربي - العاب باربي - -لعبة حرامي السيارات - لعبة GTA - San Andreas - -
تلبيس الجاسوسات الثلاث -العاب بنات - العاب تلبيس -
لعبة تسديد على الزجاجه - -لعبة Medal Of Honor لعبة اتارى العاب فلاش -لعبة الدودة العاب فلاش -
لعبة بلياردو حديثة -لعبة توصيل الطماطم -
ميك اب و اكسسوارات للبنات -لعبة ميك اب متنوع -
ملابس المهنة لعبة للبنات - -لعبة تنس المضرب - -
لعب : ميك اب فتيات - -مكياج شتوي لعبة بالفلاش - -ترتيب غرفة في المنزل -
لعبة اكس او x-o - -لعبة الرجل الطائر -لعبة توم و جيري العاب -
البيت المرعب الفلاشية -تصوير الفنانات لعبة - -صندوق الكنز لعبة فلاشية -
لعبة روليت كازينو -لعبة الصبر - -فري سل لعبة الذكاء -
لعبة بلوت سوليتير -لعبة تركيب القطة بوسى -لعبة كرة قدم فلاشية -لعبة الرجل الأخضرالفلاشية - -لعبة الطائرة المجنونة -
لعبة دهس الناس بالسيارات -لعبة الشبح والاشباح -
لعبة تعليم الطبخ - -لعبة مكياج للبنات -
تلبيس الباربي بالفلاش - -لعبة Prison Break بريزن بريك - -
قيادة دراجة السكوتر من احلى العاب السباقات - -لعبة سباق السرعة - -
سباق سيارات لعبة حلوة - لعبة شطرنج لمحبيها فقط -
العاب فلاش لعبة قتال النينجا - -المحارب اليوناني - -
لعبة مصارعة رومانية -محارب الاشباح تعال