100 Years War

unbelievable!
someone here at time actually scrutinizes, analyzes and critcizes what mccain has said in the same way they scrutinize, analyze and criticize the statements of other candidates.
will miracles never cease?!?

McCain surely knows more about the military than Barack Obama does--and Obama certainly needs to learn more

Could you give more evidence to support this assertion?

Thanks.

Finally Joe's starting to question McCain. This is a good sign. Not enough to reassure me it'll remain this way, but a good start.

The sad thing is, Joe Klein is probably the mainstream reporter most skeptical of St McCain. I can't think of another MSM bigfoot who has offered even this much, and this mild, criticism of McCain's mythical foreign policy expertise (George Will's perverse obsession with money=speech doesn't count).

Not to damn with faint praise, Joe, I applaud your efforts to peer through the fog generated by your fellow Broderists. Keep it up.

Thank you, Joe.

But the public will only learn about McCain's vulnerability on this issue if the press, well, keep pressing him, constantly asking him why he was "surprised", confront him the timing of Cheney and his visits to the region, etc.

It might be lazy thinking on the American public's part but most people will assume McCain knows more about military/foreign policy issues because he fought in a war. And you can't overstate the emotional capital of McCain's stint as a POW.

Being a soldier does not automatically mean you'd make a good politician or leader. And it's not disrespectful to pester McCain when he makes these "gaffes".

One could say that Bush also knows more about the military than Obama, based off of his National Guard service. But here we are, in the worst military debacle since Vietnam.

So far I'm not seeing a fantastic correlation between military service and sound strategic judgement.

Obama's top military advisor General McPeak said we could be in Iraq for a century. He compared the situation to South Korea. It is hypocritical for the media not to question Obama about this. He made McPeak the co-chairman of his campaign.

Was McPeak talking about combat troops, of course not? Just like McCain he was talking about a post war presence.

McCain is not a warmonger. McCain is not a neocon.

McCain voted against keeping our troops in Lebanon. McCain is for closing gitmo.

McCain in Ohio recently said he will withdraw our troops and it will be up to the Iraqis to deal with the insurgency.

McCain hates war, he lived through the horrors of war to this day he can't lift up his own arms to comb his hair.

McCain's 19 year old son Jimmy just came back from a 7 month tour from Iraq. He passed up going to college to serve. But that isn't newsworthy unlike Chelsea Clinton going to college campuses. McCain saw his own wife cry as his son was away.

McCain's goal is a responsible withdraw where we turn over areas to the iraqis and our troops come home.

McCain has said he will leave it up to the iraqis to patrol the roads.

McCain was talking about a post u.s military combat presence. He was talking about providing air cover, training iraqi soldiers and pilots and keeping.

Obama and Clinton have both said they will keep troops at our embassy and to go after al queda. Clinton said to also keep a buffer with Iran.

So with Obama and Clinton we will still have bases there and be viewed as occupiers. What will Obama and Clinton's rules of engagement be against rocket squads from sadr city. How will they secure the supply lines.

To joe klein you can't get on mccain when both obama and clinton want to keep u.s troops there to for their presidency and when Obama's top national security advisor General McPeak in a interview to the oregonion said he was for keeping our troops there for a century if it worked out right. He also compared it to north korea.

When is the MSM going to question Obama about this hypocracy when McPeak said the same thing as McCain.

McCain said it would be up to a security agreement with the iraqis and we could even train them in kuwait. McCain said costs will come down as we withdraw u.s troops.

McCain is an internationalist he even wants america as a signee to the u.s international criminal court. He wants to sign kyoto.

The media has smeared McCain by turning him from a statesman who is an internationalist to wrongly portray him as a neocon which he isn't.

The neocons hate McCain. His middle east peace approach is balanced.

McCain's foreign policy is much like Bush Sr's.

McCain is not a warmonger. He hates war. He voted against keeping our troops in Lebanon.

I don't get the "surprisingly" part. He's been wrong from the beginning, and his remedies would have exacerbated the problem.

BTW, Joe, in an interview with Dexter Filkins, in the NYTMag, I believe, Allawi pointed out that the relevant equivalent is not Germany, but the Philippines.

Conquest, occupation, corrupt puppets, endless conflict.

You know, McCain might very well know more about the military - I'm sure Rumsfeld and Cheney know quite a bit too - but it's a knowledge of foreign peoples and cultures that determines success in foreign policy.

Good post, Joe. McCain doesn't know anything about anything, and flip-flops on just about every issue. But he does say he has honor, so, that's something.

It would have been OK without the out-of-nowhere shot at Obama, btw. And TomT makes a good point-- why, factually, did you say that?

Hah. 53_2, the "hypocracy" gives you away. I'm shocked, shocked to see you switching sides under a false name.

Seriously, sammitch, if you can't do better than a cut and paste from some source, at least pick one that's coherent, has decent diction and can spell.

Although if you add the requirement of being a McCain supporter, that may be close to a null set.

McCain is not a warmonger. McCain is not a neocon.

Bull$hit! McCain's foreign policy advisor list reads like a NeoCon all-star team, including William F@cking Kristol. McCain's criticism of Bush's policy in Iraq is that Bush did not make the invasion force big enough. McCain will never leave Iraq as long as there is a tiny chance that fighting will eventually wear down the insurgents. He said NEVER SURRENDER! Remember?

McCain has said that America will be involved in other wars. He is PROMISING us more wars. McCain is a hot-tempered militarist, exactly the worst person America could elect in our current situation.

Hey, sammitch: McPeak is not running for President. See, in America, we have what is called a civilian Commander in Chief. If Obama wins, he will be the Commander in Chief. If McCain wins, he would be Commander in Chief.

And, Joe, I am sure MacArthur knew more about war than did Truman. But that didn't make MacArthur right about bombing China.

"...but McCain's carelessness and oversimplification, and wrong analysis, when it comes to the situation in Iraq puts him in a surprisingly vulnerable position."

Why is it "surprisingly" vulnerable? You can have all the judgment in the world, but if your judgment is consistently bad as McCain's has been about Iraq, it doesn't count for anything.

You say McCain knows a lot about the military. Then why is he grinding it in the ground by supporting a mission with no clear objective?

If this is what passes for being a foreign policy expert we are all massively screwed.

McLame is a tool who's to old to be president!

Klein writing the truth about McCain and committing a firing offense. This is a win-win situation...

Surprisingly good post by Joe. Continuing on the theme several people started, Joe said: "...but McCain's carelessness and oversimplification, and wrong analysis, when it comes to the situation in Iraq puts him in a surprisingly vulnerable position." I think the record suggests that McCain may well "know" a lot about the military - as he should given his assignments in the Senate. However, the record also suggests that he doesn't "understand" much about military strategy and the world in which it is applied. His tossing off Iran and AQI in the same sentence last week is just one case in point. If he really understood the situation, he could never, quite literally, have made that mistake.

I wish somebody from the Fourth Estate would ask Sen. McWarmonger a really interesting question: When would you put what are by now the rather predictable costs of the occupation on budget?
That the current klown in chief is till financing his war with 'emergency' appropriations is a disgrace.

McCain's foreign policy will not be the cowboy approach. McCain will listen to our european allies.

Liberals say McCain is just like Bush which is fundamentally wrong.

Bush for keeping gitmo open, McCain for closing it.

Bush against joining international criminal court, McCain for it.

McCain for bringing our troops home and leaving iraqis to deal with the insurgency. He said this in Ohio. McCain is not for keeping combat troops there. He was talking about training iraqis not combat. Bush is for keeping combat troops there.

McCain is for listening to our european allies and taking their advice which is a complete difference from bush.

McCain for signing Kyoto bush against it. Bush against it.

McCain for a more balanced middle east peace approach than Bush.

McCain's policy is to work and listen to our european allies on Iran. He will work mulitlaterrally with them on economic sanctions.

The dems feel if they tell a lie often enough about McCain it will become the truth. Because his real record if one of an internationalist statesman and the dems can't compete with the truth.

Neocons hate McCain. They hate him for wanting to close gitmo. McCain lead the fight to get the army field manual to ban torture. Because of him the army isn't using dogs against prisoners. McCain is from the generation of service, honor and country. No neocons back then.

When McCain was a POW Hillary was pretending she wanted to sign up for the military as a joke. In 1994 as a first lady Hillary said she wanted to join the military. She didn't go to sign up she went to the recruiting office as a joke.

"And, Joe, I am sure MacArthur knew more about war than did Truman. But that didn't make MacArthur right about bombing China."

Joe said McCain knows more about the military than Obama. But I'm not sure what that even means.

Obama called the leader of Canada the president of Canada. Canada has a prime minister not a president. Canada has been under parliamentary system for 140 years. When is the media going to go after that gaffe since they are obsessed with playing gotcha with McCain. If McCain isn't allowed to make a gaffe then the left should go after Obama and Clinton's gaffes.

Obama said 10,000 people in kansas died in a tornado.

Hillary said Musharraf was on the ballot after the Bhutto assassination. Musharraf wasn't on the ballot. Hillary made too many gaffes about pakistan during that time to count them.

Hillary said she had only mispoken once about the bosnian sniper fire in 12 years when she had told the same story on record at least 4 times.

Hillary in October on NPR was against the michigan primary counting. Hillary has a truth defecit. She said in October in New Hampshire it didn't matter if her name was on the Michigan ballot since it wouldn't count.

You dems love to bash McCain but are silent about the flaws in your candidates.

If the

No, sammitch. The media, especially the right-wing media (FoxNews, et al) does a good job of presenting the Dem flaws. That is surely how you know about them. If you are going to argue that McCain has received the same level of scrutiny, you are living in fantasyland.

McCain Gets Iraq Facts Wrong Again: Says Sadr — Not Maliki — ‘Asked’ For Ceasefire

As Mother Jones’ Jonathan Stein notes today, McCain’s description of what happened is “completely misleading” and wrong. In fact, Sadr’s call for a ceasefire only came after members of Maliki’s political party traveled to Iran to broker a deal with him:

The backdrop to Sadr’s dramatic statement was a secret trip Friday by Iraqi lawmakers to Qom, Iran’s holy city and headquarters for the Iranian clergy who run the country.

There the Iraqi lawmakers held talks with Brig. Gen. Qassem Suleimani, commander of the Qods (Jerusalem) brigades of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps and signed an agreement with Sadr, which formed the basis of his statement Sunday, members of parliament said.

Ali al Adeeb, a member of Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki’s Dawa party, and Hadi al Ameri, the head of the Badr Organization, the military wing of the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, had two aims, lawmakers said: to ask Sadr to stand down his militia and to ask Iranian officials to stop supplying weapons to Shiite militants in Iraq.

According to the AP, “the peace deal between al-Sadr and Iraqi government forces” not only “left the cleric’s Mahdi Army intact,” but it also left Maliki “politically battered and humbled within his own Shi’ite power base.”

This is not the first time in recent memory that McCain has gotten basic facts about Iraq wrong. Two weeks ago, he repeatedly made false claims that Iran was training al Qaeda fighters in Iraq.

http://thinkprogress.org/

Neocons hate McCain.

Then what are they doing on his list of foreign policy advisors? What is William Kristol doing on that list? Kristol should not be allowed inside the territory of the United States, never mind advising a Presidential candidate.

The obvious example, sammitch, is the Rev. Wright videos. Sean Hannity bought all of the DVDs, perused them for damaging sermons, and put them on his radio and television shows. Big Media picked it up, right on cue. Similar DVDs of Hagee and Parsley are available. Have you seen their damaging sermons on NBC, ABC, CBS or Fox?

from swimming freestyle:

"John McCain has admitted he's clueless when it comes to the economy. (Fear not - he's checked out Alan Greenspan's book from the library). He's made it pretty clear he intends to run on his military record and gung ho, never mind the facts, position on Iraq. That might be OK if he could just get the details right."

http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

We are there for a LONG time, no matter who is president. We don't commit to build a massive embassy (Pentagon East), and leave it to the Iraqis to defend. With only 2 significant political parties and so many behind the scene (unelected) advisors, experts, think-tanks, lobbyists... we are in it. I'm just trying to figure out how Basra fits into the plan.
I'm sure that the US encouraged (coerced) Maliki into attacking Sadr. Why? Provincial elections and troop movement, I think. Perhaps the powers that be felt Sadr might be drawn in completely- then we could kill and arrest enough leaders prior to the elections (can't run for parliament from jail or the grave), or he might boycott them altogether in protest. At least we could marginalize him as an outlaw. Also, it is a sly way to move troops and equipment there (Maliki plans to recruit 10,000 Army and police to the area).
If I'm right, watch the killing continue (we'd be protecting "good" govt initiatives from "evil" extremists and insurgents- never mind that they are Iraqi nationals trying to provide security and civil services) until only good and compliant Shiites are left. It remains to be seen how we deal with the Iran problem (get rid of Maliki and attack?).
Basra, with its oil and port, is crucial to those that feel we need to change Iraq and Iran.

You know what jmcdonough120?

There's a lot to not like about the commenting implementation here, but one thing they did get right is you can put a link to your blog in your profile. People will know that it's there because a little link dingus appears next to your name.

And then you don't have to blogwhore in every comment you make.

McCain surely knows more about the military than Barack Obama

The core assumption - that knowlege of the military equals knowlege of foreign policy is a serious impediment to getting out of our current predicament. There are severe limits to what can be accomplished by military means. While excellent at instilling fear and killing people, winning allies and creating a safer world requires a slightly more - dare I say it - nuanced approach.

McCain is an old fool. Blue Texan does a better take down.

"Someone who favorably compares Iraq -- three religiously and culturally distinct countries crammed into one by British after World War I -- with the ethnically, culturally and largely religiously united societies of Germany and Japan, displays a fundamental misunderstanding of history.

Someone who favorably compares the United States' peaceful occupation of Germany and Japan, neither of which were resulting in American casualties 5 years after our arrival, displays a fundamental misunderstanding of history.

Someone who asserts that occupying Iraq for 100 years is the solution to "radical Islamic extremism" displays a fundamental misunderstanding of history.

Someone who is so objectively wrong about so much -- and is clearly confused about the present (above) -- probably shouldn't be lecturing anyone else on their supposed historical ignorance.

But look, if St. McCain really thinks that comparing Iraq to Germany is really going to make people suddenly love the disastrous occupation of Iraq and happily accept another few trillion dollars and several thousand more American casualties, he's in for a serious beatdown in November. So knock yourself out trying to make that sale, St. McCain."

http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/100-year-mccain-again-compares-iraq-to-germany-japan/

But Joe, I don't know what motivated you to write this irrelevancy: "McCain surely knows more about the military than Barack Obama does--and Obama certainly needs to learn more ..."

A cogent insightful article that actually analyzes McCain's foreign policy position instead of regurgitating the conventional wisdom that assumes his superiority based on years of "experience".

Who are you and what have you done to Joe Klein?!

Oh, wait. Is it April 1st?

All snark aside this is a good post.

"Obama called the leader of Canada the president of Canada. Canada has a prime minister not a president. Canada has been under parliamentary system for 140 years. When is the media going to go after that gaffe since they are obsessed with playing gotcha with McCain."

Well, not to go out on a limb here, but maybe it's because we don't have 160,000 combat troops occupying Canada right now. Midentifying the title of the head of the Canadian government isn't likely to have as serious of foreign policy reprocussions as misunderstanding the difference between Sunni and Shia five years into a war in Mesopotamia. Four different times. On different days.

It's the size of the gaffe that matters.

K

The problem with John McCain's 100 years in Iraq formulation isn't that he's calling for 95 more years of combat--he isn't

Actually, he is. The problem is that he thinks he isn't. Bush didn't land on that aircraft carrier thinking of 5 more years of combat either.

These people are dangerous.

Who are you and what have you done to Joe Klein?!

Sombody put truth serum in Joe's Kool Aid. What a nasty April Fool's prank!

I would love it if a reporter would ask McCain to estimate how many of the people stationed in Germany wear full body armor when they go out to buy Hummels for family back home.

Actually, I'd like to see a reporter inject Hummels into a question to McCain at any time and in any way.

Thanks for this post Joe. It would have been a much better offering for dead-tree time than the fluff piece about Al Gore. You're preaching to the choir here.

"That betrays a fairly acute lack of knowledge about both Iraq and Islam." This is good analysis that I would like Klein to follow up with some hard-hitting questions to McCain. Like:

The British were in Iraq during and after both WW I and WW II. Their occupations were failures and were forced to retreat. How can we peacefully occupy Iraq for 100 years?

Has there been any long term peaceful occupations of an Islamic land by an outsider? Kuwait, Bahrain, etc ... don't count due to their autocratic dictators complicity in said occupations.

I see QH has added still another nym to his/her profile.

McCain surely knows more about the military than Barack Obama does--and Obama certainly needs to learn more--

Could we have a little MORE emphasis on the "NEEDS TO LEARN MORE"

Indeed Obama, the Democrat Messiah, is all knowing and all seeing. He doesn't need to know anything just due to the fact he is the anointed one.

Rather than speak out with his great knowledge about foriegn affairs and the best strategy for this war, Obama just takes swipes at his eventual opponets "mis-speak" about whether someone is a Shia or a Sunni or who really knows what they all are over there. Frankly, I don't really give a damn what they call themselves so long as I know they'll never step foot on American soil.

Come on Mr Obama, speak those words you are so eloquently able to speak. Let us know what you will do in specific. Oh, that's right you can't. You need an already scripted plan or to plagerize from another source first. I guess trying to know ahead of time what position other than "I'll bring the troops home" is sufficient to your believers. Well Oz, it won't be good enough for those Americans sane enough to know you don't even have a clue.

Hate to break it to you, Rustydog, but Sunnis and Shias are already over here. Immigration and religious freedom and all that.

Yeah, maybe the neocons do hate Grandpa McWrong – I'll start worrying about their electoral prefs when they come out in support of Obama.

whether someone is a Shia or a Sunni or who really knows what they all are over there. Frankly, I don't really give a damn what they call themselves so long as I know they'll never step foot on American soil.

That's gotta be a parody. Nobody that stupid could have mastered elementary punctuation.

In other news, it appears that the American Ambassador in Baghdad has decided that working under daily mortar and rocket barrages in the Green Zone is not conducive to the health of his staff, so he is moving out.

Source: http://arablinks.blogspot.com/2008/03/report-us-embassy-moving-elsewhere.html

Does this mean that the surge is working? Let's ask Joe Klein, international man of mystery, and Iraq War expert.

Frankly, I don't really give a damn what they call themselves so long as I know they'll never step foot on American soil.

Leave it to Rusty to elevate ignorance to a virtue. I rather suspect that there are quite a few Sunnis AND Shiites on American soil as we speak. The USA is noted for it freedom of worship and many Muslims enjoy that freedom. In fact, there's no doubt that quite a few are busy fighting for that same freedom even as we speak.

But Rusty doesn't strike me as one who really concerns himself with details as long as someone is there to retell those reassuring lies that allows him to sleep comfortably.

I WANT TO FIX HILLARY CLINTON FOR STAYING WITH BILL WHEN SHE SHOULD HAVE DIVORCED HIM OVER:
1. HIS ANTIMASTURBATION
2. HIS CHEATING ADULTERY
ALSO IM AGAINST HER NOT LISTENING TO ME ABOUT VOTING AGAINST THE ANTI POKER BILL (PHONE CALLS, LETTERS) AND RECEIVING FUNDING FROM HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES WHEN THEY ARE ALREADY OVERCHARGING AND AGE DISCRIMINATING. I ALSO BELIEVE LIKE JOE LIEBERMAN THAT BILL CLINTON SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPEACHED AFTER ILLEGALLY CHEATING ON HIS WIFE.

McCain's century pledge for a US military base similar to Germany or Korea says nothing about his military knowledge. what he needs to address is how the US military effectiveness can be sustained while fighting this bruising 100 year war. The top military generals were silent about the futility of the Iraq invasion. This makes their present silence about the imminent implosion of the military even more troubling. How much longer can the military withstand the strain of the Iraq war at the present level of troop and material renewal. I believe this requires as much serious discussion as the economy. This takes more than honor, patriotism and experience to address and here McCain's silence is troubling.

Wow..the libbies are out in full force tonight. Usually I read posts attacking Klein because he is not liberal enough and doesn't attack Republicans non-stop. I love all the posts thanking Klein for getting on board with you guys. Obviously TIME is very liberal due to 99% of the posters here being libbies hoping for bad news. The Obama lovefest continues in the MSM. Anybody catch the Today show this morning..hard hitting questions for Obama from Anne Curry swooning over him. The extreme liberal bias will continue into the general election..no doubt.but McCain will prevail.

Obviously TIME is very liberal due to 99% of the posters here being libbies hoping for bad news.

What is keeping "conservatives" who know how to read and write from posting on this blog? The US economy is in a recession; the US occupation of Iraq is falling apart; and the Republican candidate for President is a semi-senile warmonger who has trouble remembering important facts.

But I agree; this isn't nearly enough to prevent another Republican victory, because Republicans have fantasy and belligerence on their side. Kool Aid sales remain brisk, and the chant of USA! USA! USA! may keep away evil spirits for another year.

"What is keeping "conservatives" who know how to read and write from posting on this blog? "

Because there all serving in Iraq....BWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHAAAAAHHAAAA HAAAHAAAAAHHHHA HEE HEE, HOOO, HAW HAW OHHHHHHHH!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

the relevant equivalent is not Germany, but the Philippines.

Spot on. Iraq comparisons to US long term presences in Germany, Japan or even South Korea break down quickly. Why? Because in G,J & SK the pre-occupation conflicts had killed huge numbers of the military and civilian populations. Violence against all segments of the population had been intense and sustained; whether viewed as liberators or not, the occupiers were absolutely able to stop massive killings.

To militarily occupy a country where the population has will or incentive to resist is to virtually guarantee armed resistance against the occupiers. How many posters here would NOT resist a foreign occupier? There's steady criticism of our resident Idiot-in-Chief and the various Corporate Candidates who seek to replace him - but if an alien power somehow tossed over the system, would anyone here applaud?

In the end, it isn't who "knows more about the military" that should lead the Executive office. It's who has the vision and ability to accomplish productive policy without having to use it as a preferred instrument.

"Because there all serving in Iraq...."

Maybe they took the dictionary with them?

"they're"....satisfied?

They're over there......

Or not!

In the end, it isn't who "knows more about the military" that should lead the Executive office. It's who has the vision and ability to accomplish productive policy without having to use it as a preferred instrument.

By virtue of this single statement, you, pawka, are better qualified to be President than John McCain and better qualified to write for Time Magazine than Joe Klein. Unfortunately America says "give us a barbarian," someone who will ratchet up the level of threats and violence against the world. So McCain is campaigning as a death-bringer.

Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran

-- John McCain

How peaceful was the French occupation of Algeria, the British occupation of Egypt, the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon (or the West Bank, Gaza), or the British occupation of Iraq during WW I?

"With our MacArthur Regency in Baghdad, Pax Americana will reach apogee. But then the tide recedes, for the one endeavour at which Islamic people excel is expelling imperial powers by terror or guerrilla war." -Patrick J. Buchanan

A 100 year peaceful occupation of Iraq by American troops is impossible (short of cooperation with a pro-American brutal dictator that can keep a lid on the populace).

Cincinnatus:
Thank you. That was the best laugh I had all day.

Because there all serving in Iraq....BWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHAAAAAHHAAAA HAAAHAAAAAHHHHA HEE HEE, HOOO, HAW HAW OHHHHHHHH!
Posted by Cincinnatus | April 1, 2008 8:38 PM

I love it when the anti-Americans roll out of their holes in the ground and hide behind the internet blog sites, makes you feel REAL big and strong doesn't Sunshine????

When you start seeing car bombs, subway bombs, I for one can't wait to see you BWAAAAAAHHHHAAAHHAA and HEE HEE HOO HAW HAW on that too

I rather suspect that there are quite a few Sunnis AND Shiites on American soil as we speak.

I live three blocks south of a pretty damn big mosque. Traffic and parking problems on Fridays up there.

Rustydog does a marvelous job illustrating the nature of the republican base voter.

When you start seeing car bombs, subway bombs, I for one can't wait to see you

See, there's this underwater tunnel they're building in al Faw that is gonna through the Persian Gulf, across the Atlantic, up the east river (bypassing Queens) and turn east right at midtown Manhattan. And Sunni and Shiites or the what all are going to tunnel right into the downtown 456 line just north of Grand Central, leap onto the train, and throw a suitcase bomb through one of the train windows.

Hence, we must fight them over there, so they don't fight us over here.

(BTW, the very existence of a "suitcase bomb" is questioned. Just because Tom Clancy can think something up doesn't mean it actually exists.)

Rustydog -- you're the only one here who hates America. Your fantasy of a Christian State led by Dear Leader Emperor Bush is about as far from the values of this country as anything I could imagine.

Amazed at the US public's dopey belief that war hero status confers expertise or insight or knowledge. Probably fortunate that Audie Murphy never ran for president!

"I love it when the anti-Americans roll out of their holes and hide behind the internet blog sites..."

This from a commenter called "Rustydog."

Not hiding at all, are you "Rustydog."

I love it when the anti-Americans roll out of their holes

I am an American, and I ask you if Caesarism and endless war are true to America's spirit. This nation was not founded on a spirit of belligerence and a quest for world domination. Our military-industrial complex is now running amok, ginning up enemies as fast as it needs them and threatening our nation with ruin. That is what is anti-American.

Ah, another Joe Klein false equivalency!

John McCain makes mistakes about Iraq, but Obama doesn't have military experience! Which is just as bad! So see! Let's just call it al equal and throw our hands up! One's just as bad as the other!

And of course, McCain's Iraq mistakes are good for the Republicans and bad for the Democrats.

Thanks Joe.

I cannot stand the argument: "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here". It shows the effectiveness of the mis-information campaign of those who led us into this mess. The bottom line is this: you defeat terrorists with jobs, education, opportunity, safety, hope; you create more with aggression, violence, occupation, suppression, deception, hopelessness... Around 1 million displaced Iraqi refugees living in tents along the Syrian border is fertile breeding ground for extremists and makes us less safe "over here".

When you start seeing car bombs...

We've seen those in this country, Rustydog. Planted and exploded, killing dozens of civilians - planted, that is, by a white conservative. Not a radical muslim.

"The problem with John McCain's 100 years in Iraq formulation isn't that he's calling for 95 more years of combat--he isn't--"

I'm not sure that he isn't. Actually, McCain wasn't probably sure of what he was saying. His caveat "provided no Americans are harmed or injured" seems to be a last second attempt to extricate himself from the consequences of a senseless bit of chest thumping.

Libbies out in full force again today. BMB..I find your statement very amusing..we shouldn't fight them..we should be there friend ..we should defeat them with jobs like you say..yes. I will give an insurgent a job making fries...and suddenly he won't want to kill everyone who does not believe in allah!!libbies will never understand the threat of terrorism..it's pointless debating white flag waving libbies here..they just don't get it.Like BMB says..it's all our fault..b;ame america first..we should be providing security and jobs then they won't fire RPG's..hahahahahahahahah

jimmyjamz

Go read about the history of US involvement in the government of Iran for the last 50 years. Then, when your head is less empty, come back to talk to the adults.

jimmjamz said:
"libbies will never understand the threat of terrorism"

I think we understand all too well the threat of terrorism: it scares people so badly that they relinquish their liberties to anyone who promises them security. So, when you consider Bush's actions over the past seven years, you could say the terrorists have won, because he is using the terror people felt on 9-11 to run rampant over the Constitution.

Do you understand that? The very bedrock of the nation you love so much is being eaten away by Bush and his fellow douchebags, and you are defending it just so that you can have a slightly smaller chance of getting blown up.

Except...oh wait, that's Bin Laden is still alive, Iran is even more powerful, and everybody hates us more because of Iraq.

Cliff, yes i do understand Bush's actions over the last 7 years..and we haven't been attacked on US soil since. Thank god we waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed as it probably saved hundreds if not thousands of lives thwarting future attacks. If the Government wants to listen in on my phone calls and maybe hear me order a pizza,..thats fine..but if it intercepts just one call saving lives..it's worth it..but I know you won't understand that. Everybody here suffers from Bush Derangement Syndrome..Didn't you hear..he used his secret hurricane making machine to cause hurricane Katrina

Cliff, yes i do understand Bush's actions over the last 7 years..and we haven't been attacked on US soil since.

Sequence in time does not indicate causality, jimmyjamz. Besides, if we were attacked tomorrow, you would take that as proof of the need for the WAR ON TERROR. What we really need is a war on stupidity. Unfortunately, you would not be fit to serve in that struggle.

"Thank god we waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed as it probably saved hundreds if not thousands of lives thwarting future attacks."

Fair enough. That's the best argument there is for waterboarding. But I would like to see some sort of repercussions for the people who waterboarded him. If the threat was severe enough to warrant waterboarding, then it's severe enough for an interrogator to see some jail time.

But I don't see the Bush Administration wanting to be held accountable for anything. They just came in and started assuming that they had the right to do whatever they wanted, and that's what scares me. Right now, they'll get information out of a bad guy like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, but I can't trust that they'll just stick to the bad guys.

Also, there's plenty of evidence that the Bush Administration had warning about a big scheme of Bin Laden's coming to fruition. Why did they drop the ball?

Also, why don't we have Bin Laden? If Bush is so great at catching terrorists, why don't we have the top guy? Why did we let him slip through our fingers?

If Bush is so fantastic at fighting terrorism and spreading democracy, why is Hamas rampant in Palestine? Why did Ethiopia have to step in to fight Islamic fundamentalists in Somalia?

Consider all the gaps in our security - the Mexico border, the ports, the airports. Isn't a great deal of good fortune involved in us not being attacked since 9-11?

Ah..yes HH..that's the liberal mentality we are used to..if some one disagrees with you..just call them a name..very clever" stupid"..boy you got me..

WOW Cliff..so you are saying that the Government officials who waterboarded Khalid and did their job by extracting info that most likely saved lives...should be in jail...who's side are you on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank god we waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed as it probably saved hundreds if not thousands of lives thwarting future attacks.

Not one. Not one life. Not one attack. Lots of stupid wild goose chases when he was trying to tell them what they wanted to here.

Nothing.

[http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200609/fallows_victory

Fallows already dealt with this intelligently.]

The problem is that self-styled conservatives are pu$$ies, scared of their own shadows, terrified by penniless, stateless people in caves ten thousand miles away. They wet their diapers about what the scary brown people who talk funny and write backwards will do to them.

They're a buncha gutless weenies who can't tell a real threat from propaganda, who built bomb shelters and stocked them with spam to stay safe from a country where they couldn't make right and left shoes at the same time, and half of their schools didn't have indoor plumbing. In quaking terror of a tiny country that mostly consisted of subsistence rice farmers, they insisted on bombing women and children who terrified them.

And now, terror reaches its apex. One attack a decade--one successful attack ever--and they're panties are in a bunch and they want big strong men to stand up and save them from the boogey man in the dark, dark closet.

Wusses.

Wow....Jay..very nice..blaming our troops for bombing women and children..that's the blame america and our troops first liberal mentality..oh! and and linking to a liberal site to prove it didn't save lives...pleeease!!

Ah..yes HH..that's the liberal mentality we are used to..if some one disagrees with you..just call them a name..very clever" stupid"..boy you got me.

Regrettably, I am not just calling you a name. It is objectively stupid to assert that terrorists have not attacked us because we invaded Iraq. There is no way to establish causality in this claim. It is a logically indefensible statement, an ungrounded assertion, a Cheneyism. Are you too stupid to grasp what proof and causation mean?

"WOW Cliff..so you are saying that the Government officials who waterboarded Khalid and did their job by extracting info that most likely saved lives...should be in jail...who's side are you on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

WOW jimmyjamz, I am cowed into submission by your excessive exclamation points.

Dolt.

Yes, that is what I am saying. I am saying that if the issue is important enough to torture someone, then it is important enough for the interrogator to see some sort of repercussion. This is just my view. This is the only way I can come up with to justify getting information through torture (assuming that the information will ever be valid, which is a large assumption) - to spread the suffering to all parties. Not because the interrogator is bad, necessarily, but because torture is bad, and there should be a price to pay for engaging in it.

And also - yes, our troops have bombed women and children. Not intentionally, but there is such a thing as collateral damage. Pointing this out does not make us traitors.

"They" is the chick$hit conservatives who were afraid of the havoc paddy farmers would wreak on their daughters 12000 miles away, in the country that, if McCain had had his way, we'd be in our, I dunno 25th year of occupation.

Cowards all of them. Bullies, and fools. Craven lickspittles, clambering for power so they can get 17th century chamberpots on their yachts.

That's today's conservative.

Big government, deficit spending, authoritarian imperialist cowards.

With bumper sticker slogans instead of policies.

BTW, if you think Fallows is a liberal, you have serious reading comprehension problems.

Jay..you are probably some 19 yo kid behind his computer at Berkeley..because you embarress yourself by your posts..rambling about paddy farmers? It is obvious you have no idea how to keep this country safe or what threats this country faces..go back to picketing the marine recruiting office

That's rich, jimmyjamz accusing jayackroyd of bad posts.

It is obvious you have no idea how to keep this country safe or what threats this country faces

jimmyjamz,

If Cheney said he was going to nuke Iran and kill every man, woman, and child in the country, you would cheer him on if he said it would keep you "safe." You have the mind of a frightened child, and like a child you don't understand the consequences of impulsiveness and irrationality.

jimmyjamz- Are you one of the people that said after 9/11 "lets bomb the sh@t out of the ME, turn it into a parking lot and take the oil"? What is the end-game? Are we for genocide or tollerence?
Military force should only be used to counter direct threats- Iraq was no such threat. The issue is making our people safer. Lets be honest, the occupation makes us less safe. The moderates in the ME are being eliminated, our armed forces are spread thin, our economy is suffering and, yes, our actions are helping to breed a new generation of terrorists.

The liberal penchant for flipping wars on and off like so many Florida condos speaks volumes to their real commitment to world peace and justice (almost ZERO) when the hard decisions and hard sacrifices are asked and made.

Mistakes? You bet. Every war in history.

We screwed up by losing the Shah in Iran (never mind his being an ardent anti-communist that the libs fail to recite to this day).

We screwed up by not removing Saddam as part & parcel of Gulf 1, and here's plenty of blame to go around on that -- on both sides of the not so thinning aisle.

We screwed up by not inserting 250,000 troops for looter control, given the stupid decision to dis-band the Iraqi "army" -- setting us back again, and not unlike the MisState Dept weenies entrenched in DC second guessing every Captain and CSM out of Fort Campbell on dissemination of goods and services to the locals.

We're getting better, as Winston Churchill once remarked, after doing much wrong (or at least the hard way).

That being said (which IS cheap), our getting out of Iraq OR Afghanistan too soon IS a LOSER.

If you don't want the kids of today re-fighting this deal in 10 years at higher costs, and if you really cherish freedom and all it provides (warts and all), shouldn't it be about Time that the libs stopped ratting out the troops, dissing the leaders, hair splitting the map, and otherwise aiding & abetting the enemy?

That assumes a lot about liberal IQ of course, and even more about their alleged patriotism.

What we learned from 1992: When you confront a liberal, start by questing both their judgment and their patriotism -- and don't let the SOB go until the July 4th parade IS long over.

LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY.

My $1,000 offer to pay for your body armor stands, QH. Are you ready to suit up and kick some butt in Iraq?

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فديو يوتيوب - -
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