March 3, 2008 12:40
The Nafta Debate
The Clinton campaign is going slightly berserk today over the news that an Obama adviser really did tell the Canadians that:
"[Obama'santi-NAFTA] messaging should not be taken out of context and should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans."
At least, according to a Canadian memo recounting the meeting. This is, obviously, an embarrassment for the Obama campaign--although it's entirely possible that the advisor, Austin Goolsbee, was simply stating his own opinion.
On the other hand, Goolsbee's position makes perfect sense. There isn't all that much that can--or should--be done about a 15-year-old trade deal that has had only a peripheral impact on the economy creating about as many new jobs as were lost, according to most economists. In fact, both Clinton and Obama have been blowing smoke about NAFTA and trade, in general. A week ago, Ohio Governor Ted Strickland--a Clinton supporter--told me as much:
"NAFTA is a symbolic target upon which all of the anger can be focused. It's not saying those jobs are going to come back. It's just a way to acknowledge the frustration and anger that people feel."
The manufacturing job losses were a consequence of technological progress and globalization, not trade. Any attempt to wish this away, or turn back the clock, represents the cruelest sort of demagoguery--the raising of false hopes among those who are suffering. To their credit, when pinned down on this in the MSNBC debate last week, both Clinton and Obama were careful not to make unsubstantiated claims--although the worker and environmental standards that both say they favor are very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce in unilateral trade deals with countries that are as big as China, India or even Mexico. What makes more sense--and what really needs to be reviewed, according to James Galbraith, the University of Texas economist--are special provisions written into the trade deals to benefit individual U.S. companies. In other words, the U.S. trade code is beginning to look a lot like the U.S. tax code. Galbraith also favors a far more robust social safety net, education system and stronger unions to protect U.S. workers who've been displaced. Those are good ideas even if not another manufacturing job is lost.
Then again, as unwilling as Clinton and Obama have been to tell hard truths about NAFTA, they are pillars of rectitude compared to Lou Dobbs, who seems to have slipped off the deep end in recent weeks, fearmongering about the nonexistant North American Union and NAFTA Superhighway. This is dangerous conspiracy theorizing that has no place on a reputable news network. The Washington Post addressed this myth here. Dobbs, outraged as always, demanded that the candidates "address" this burning issue in their Texas debate. Happily, they didn't. Perhaps CNN--which, earlier this year, took apart the scurrilous rumor that Barack Obama had attended a madrasa--can address this paranoid fantasy on one of its non-Dobbs programs.
Reader Comments (38)
I remember that Bill Clinton just played a big role in helping a Canadian businessman get a huge uranium deal in some ME country and everyone was surprised at how Bill got that contract for this Canadian Business man. So with that in mind, it appears the Clintons are playing lobbyist on an international scale to get contracts for a handsome price I'm sure. So of course with this nice arrangement with the Clintons, the Clintons would love to find anything to embarasss Obama's NAFTA stance. I do not from Canada. The Clintons are power brokers on an international scale and they are out after every dirty trick they can conceive of to deceive the electorate.
Posted by jlt | March 3, 2008 2:43 PM
Anyone who takes Lou Dobbs the least bit serious has some mental dysfunction.
From a guy whose ratings were floundering on Moneyline all of a sudden being this advocate for the little guy and asking ridiculous poll questions that are impossible to vote 'no' to, Lou Dobbs is by far the biggest waste of journalism that CNN has hired. And that's saying a lot - it's CNN we're talking about here!
The guy is a joke
Posted by Olufemi | March 3, 2008 2:45 PM
Don't they go berserk over everything?
And why should we be listening to what the right wing canadian PM's office has to say about anything?
Posted by four legs good | March 3, 2008 2:52 PM
Well I believe President Obama will get those jobs back regardless of NAFTA. Obama has a supreme understanding of the nuances and what it will take to undo the damage of the Bush years and the abuses that are so conviently blamed on NAFTA.
Posted by StewieZ | March 3, 2008 2:54 PM
Conflating Bill and Hillary Clinton is getting old. You Obamabots need a new meme. She is not the "devil incarnate", she like Obama is a "POLITICIAN", get a clue. The "sky is not going to open" if he is elected.
Posted by AnnL | March 3, 2008 3:07 PM
Everyone knows you can't trust anything Joe Klein says, but just in case anyone needs even more proof:
1. Here's a map of the NAFTASuperhighway that Joe Klein says doesn't exist, right on a Canadian government website (they've since taken it down):
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59105
2. Here's a speech from a Canadian government official hyping the NAFTASuperhighway (as a "mid-continent trade corridor"):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br31mdP8-Ug
Eviscerating the rest of Klein's comments - and discussing his possible motivations - is left as an exercise.
I'll just add that Obama supports Bush's SPP (spp.gov), aka "NAFTA on steroids". Rather than looking into that, Klein is misleading his readers for one reason or other.
Posted by NoMoreBlatherDotCom
|
March 3, 2008 3:12 PM
I suppose it'll take a little time for the apologist attack (JK hates Obama, the AP reporter is untrustworthy, CTV isn't reputable, etc.) to get to this new post.
Other than the fact that both candidates postured against NAFTA in Ohio, the only important element of this story is a reminder: Obama is a politician, not a savior, and people can't seriously expect him to simultaneously meet the demands of his party while also encouraging bipartisan support.
Posted by romlock | March 3, 2008 3:27 PM
I'll just add that Obama supports Bush's SPP
No foolin. Did you think we didn't get that the last fifty times you posted it?
“Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.” --Homer Simpson
Posted by Paul Daniel Ash
|
March 3, 2008 3:27 PM
The manufacturing job losses were a consequence of technological progress and globalization, not trade. Any attempt to wish this away, or turn back the clock, represents the cruelest sort of demagoguery--the raising of false hopes among those who are suffering. To their credit, when pinned down on this in the MSNBC debate last week, both Clinton and Obama were careful not to make unsubstantiated claims--although the worker and environmental standards that both say they favor are very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce in unilateral trade deals with countries that are as big as China, India or even Mexico. What makes more sense--and what really needs to be reviewed, according to James Galbraith, the University of Texas economist--are special provisions written into the trade deals to benefit individual U.S. companies. In other words, the U.S. trade code is beginning to look a lot like the U.S. tax code. Galbraith also favors a far more robust social safety net, education system and stronger unions to protect U.S. workers who've been displaced. Those are good ideas even if not another manufacturing job is lost.
Just...just wow. I had to bold the dumbest parts. Guess it's easy to have this brainless position of yours when you are secure in your job never being outsourced to Mexico.
Posted by vicious maniac | March 3, 2008 3:56 PM
Pretty sad too, but not surprising, to see you buy into the China/India bogeyman. Which Rethuglican/DLC cronies sold you on it? The same guys that sold you on FISA?
Posted by vicious maniac | March 3, 2008 4:00 PM
Regarding NAFTASuperhighway deniers like Klein, some of them outright deny it and leave it at that. But, others go one step further and add something like, "but, if it were to happen would it be such a bad thing?"
As more and more people realize what's going on, expect those now denying it to switch to advocating for it directly.
And, expect Joe Klein to be one of those in the lead of that effort.
Posted by NoMoreBlatherDotCom
|
March 3, 2008 4:03 PM
Yeah, Joe, CNN will get right on that (looking into the idiocy that IS Lou Dobbs). Then, they will look into the racist stylings of Glenn Beck; followed by an intense review of the "work" of Howard Kurtz.
Posted by smedley | March 3, 2008 4:04 PM
Joe - You wrote: "The manufacturing job losses were a consequence of technological progress and globalization, not trade."
I am not at all sure how one can experience globalization without trade deals such as NAFTA. 'Globalization' is the process whereby companies outsource the production of goods and services to foreign nations. The calculations by which this becomes economically advantageous are directly affected by whatever taxes and tariffs are in place. By lowering those taxes and tariffs through trade deals such as NAFTA one is guaranteeing that 'Globalization' will take place.
I will leave it to an actual economist to explain it to me in a manner that strips it of all connections to reality.
Please note, Joe, that I am not disputing the claims made by all of those economists that NAFTA has resulted in net-overall job growth; after all, I am sure they included some anti-trade economists in the analyses, right? Because relying on the opinions of economists who are uniformly PRO-trade would be, you know, stupid.
And it seems that you have accepted the conservative point that labor and environmental regulations ought to be disregarded because verification is, you know, hard-n-stuff. I mean, its like really, really hard so we should stop trying to make sure that our trading partners are treating their workers fairly or that they are not poisoning the air or water. Because that stuff is hard. It was probably a waste of time and effort for America to regulate the actions of its individual states because that was really hard and just created all of these hard feelings.
Now that we have agreed to let corporations do what ever they want I am absolutely positive that the Republicans will be so grateful that they will help us put in place the type of societal safety net that your economist friend describes. Because the Repulicans are all about compromise and getting things done, right? Why, I was just sitting back in my chair, thinking about the last time the Republicans compromised on an important piece of legislation...You know, that thing there...with the stuff in it...those were good times.
But seriously Joe, when are we going to have that discussion on Corporatism and the power of multinational corporations? Galbraith touched on it when he mentioned the writing of trade deals that are biased towards specific companies - this is corruption and an affront to the Free-Market nonsense that conservatives claim to support but never do in practice. Democrats need to be able to discuss these issues without you getting nervous that the GOP is going to call us names - they will do that anyway.
Posted by Terrapinion | March 3, 2008 4:16 PM
vicious maniac -
I think you may be misreading some of what Joe's written. Regarding your first bolded section, those special provision are identified as needing to be reviewed, i.e. they ought to be critically evaluated and possibly done away with.
As for the second part, the "good ideas" are "a far more robust social safety net, education system, and stronger unions," which would seem to increase the economic security of the person whose job could be outsourced to Mexico.
It's also possible that I've misread it, but it seems like your desire to castigate Joe may have gotten in the way of an accurate reading.
Posted by Mercutio42 | March 3, 2008 4:21 PM
Thanks, at least, for starting to inquire about NAFTA. I'm really in the dark about one point, though: why would Obama seek to reassure anyone from Canada? Is he courting Canadian votes?
Posted by Acid J | March 3, 2008 4:43 PM
The reality is that Canada won't be affected much by any NAFTA re-negotiation. The reasons for re-negotiation surround basically three issues -- regulatory corruption, environmental protection (including CO2 pollution) and workers' rights.
Canada's trade and workers' rights standards are equal to or better than ours. In fact, it would benefit the American people if Canada were to insist in the course of a re-negotiation on us raising our standards to match theirs, particularly in the realm of single-payer health care as a workers' right.
Mexico, on the other hand, is a cesspool of corruption, worker abuse, and pollution. That's the reason that more American jobs have gone to Mexico than to Canada (though the American managers of the polluting maquiladoras all live on the U.S. side of the border, where their water suppply is far less likely to be polluted by the factories they manage) -- it's cheaper for the profitmongering multinational megacorporations to operate there than in the U.S., or even in Canada.
I see no reason why it is wrong for an Obama advisor to tell a contact of his in the Canadian government that this fact is a fact. I'd like to see Obama himself saying this on the stump.
Posted by TomInTheSwamp
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March 3, 2008 5:06 PM
What TomInTheSwamp said.
Seriously, this seems so obvious to me that I wonder if I'm missing something.
Posted by fedupwithswampland | March 3, 2008 5:32 PM
"The manufacturing job losses were a consequence of technological progress and globalization, not trade."
Mirriam Webster defines 'globalization':
"the development of an increasingly integrated global economy marked especially by free trade, free flow of capital, and the tapping of cheaper foreign labor markets"
How does one have 'globalization' without trade? Isn't trade the instrument to achieve 'globalization'? If so, they are essentially one and the same aren't they?
Also, these economists who, supposedly, all agree that NAFTA has been good...what exactly has their track record been of late? Were these the same economists who've been cheerleading the last couple years? The ones who said there would be no recession, the ones who said the economy was fundamentally sound, the ones who said the the sub-prime mortgage crisis would be contained and wouldn't effect the economy at large? Are these the same economists who saw no problem with an economy being based on people selling each other their houses with no end in sight?
Posted by Titus Pullo | March 3, 2008 5:57 PM
I think you're being a bit hard on people. They don't want NAFTA in some parts of the country because it's hurt them. In other parts of the country they do want NAFTA because it's helped them. Even if the job loss has been offset by gains nationally, NAFTA is still responsible for a lot of regional dislocations. People aren't just wrong (on either side of the issue).
Posted by Mike M. | March 3, 2008 6:01 PM
I think you may be misreading some of what Joe's written.
I'll give you the caveat that I am exhausted from hard working, so please forgive me for being a bit warbley.
those special provision are identified as needing to be reviewed, i.e. they ought to be critically evaluated and possibly done away with..
First of all, the government can't even convict Wesley Snipes of cheating his way out of millions in taxes. Think they'll stand a chance in their current form against Big Business? Why don't we ask the Congressmen about to get steamrolled by Big Oil just for putting an end to their outrageous tax breaks.
Secondly, among many other reasons, there is a reason why the phrase "trade deal" contains the word "deal". Companies and industry (on both sides of any border) want incentive from government if they are to make the effort to participate in trade deals, especially since a moral hazard has long been established (they are never really held responsible for any damages these provisions do), especially if there is an economic bogeyman (China, etc.). "Special provisions" are a big part of that incentive. Assuring the continued moral hazard of their potential fallout is a big part of that incentive.
No special provisions (and/or no moral hazard), no big incentive.
No big incentive, no deal.
No deal, and they trot away to better pastures.
Or the industries of the bogeymen that Klein is a-scared of get our trading partner's attention, much to our government's concern.
As it stands, we are in fact in the economic equivalent of World War 3 already, with corporations essentially in direct competition with governments and the people. So we should perhaps stop playing on their terms and set about beginning the creation of the global economy equivalent of the Treaty of Versailles, to make corporations and their governments responsible for economic criminalities. We need this done. Otherwise there's no standard, no accountability, no reason to continue.
Does this need to, or should, or even could happen overnight? No, and even Obama I believe knows this. But fake solutions promoted by Joe Klein, Champion of all Disingenuous CW Regurgitation, (and coming from a guy from Pro-NAFTA Texas, no less) certainly isn't the answer.
As for the second part, the "good ideas" are "a far more robust social safety net, education system, and stronger unions," which would seem to increase the economic security of the person whose job could be outsourced to Mexico.
Too tired to get into this, so I've decided to cite David Greig's The Architect as my entire rebuttal. That's all.
Posted by vicious maniac | March 3, 2008 6:19 PM
Titus Pullo inquires: Also, these economists who, supposedly, all agree that NAFTA has been good...what exactly has their track record been of late?
I don't know which economists Klein is speaking about, but the majority of those in that field that I see discussed regarding the issue I cover (immigration) are basically hacks and ideologues. For an example, 500 scholars signed on to the open letter discussed here:
http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/005060.html
Anyone who'd sign on to something like that has no clue, or is simply a hack of some kind.
And, many of those who signed on are globalization fans and probably include some of those Klein referenced above. Search for 'libertarian economist blog' or similar to find examples of their "thinking".
Posted by NoMoreBlatherDotCom
|
March 3, 2008 6:22 PM
Terrapinion,
Good job.
If Joe Klein were to respond it would be along these lines, "All us beltway dilettantes know 'free trade' is good because profits are good and rising wages are bad." Did you ever read *this essay?*
Here, I'll get anyone who is interested started:
***********************
DEFEAT THE RIGHT IN THREE MINUTES
Conceptual Guerilla writes:
Have you got three minutes? Because that's all you need to learn how to defeat the Republican Right. Just read through this handy guide and you'll have everything you need to successfully debunk right-wing propaganda.
It's really that simple. First, you have to beat their ideology, which really isn't that difficult. At bottom, conservatives believe in a social hierarchy of "haves" and "have nots" that I call "corporate feudalism". They have taken this corrosive social vision and dressed it up with a "respectable" sounding ideology. That ideology is pure hogwash, and you can prove it.
But you have to do more than defeat the ideology. You have to defeat the "drum beat". You have to defeat the "propaganda machine", that brainwashes people with their slogans and catch-phrases. You've heard those slogans."Less government", "personal responsibility" and lots of flag waving. They are "shorthand" for an entire worldview, and the right has been pounding their slogans out into the public domain for getting on forty years.
So you need a really good slogan – a "counter-slogan" really, to "deprogram" the brainwashed. You need a "magic bullet" that quickly and efficiently destroys the effectiveness of their "drum beat". You need your own "drum beat" that sums up the right's position. Only your "drum beat" exposes the ugly reality of right-wing philosophy – the reality their slogans are meant to hide. Our slogan contains the governing concept that explains the entire right-wing agenda. That's why it works. You can see it in every policy, and virtually all of Republican rhetoric. And it's so easy to remember, and captures the essence of the Republican Right so well, we can pin it on them like a "scarlet letter".
Is there really a catch phrase – a "magic bullet" – that sums up the Republican Right in such a nice easy-to-grasp package. You better believe it, and it's downright elegant in its simplicity...
**************************
Posted by CMike | March 3, 2008 6:29 PM
I think the important issue has been glossed over. We can discuss the merits of NAFTA (lower prices for consumers, boon to some border states - ie. California, Florida, Texas) and the detriments (loss of some manufacturing jobs - although trade has led to manufacturing jobs created in Mobile as part of the Northrup/Airbus deal, and Texas, Mississipi, and South Carolina with auto manufacturing).
I live in California, and have relatives in Michigan, so I see both sides.
However, the big issue that is being missed is tha fact that Obama is promising workers in Ohio one thing, and having his economic adviser tell the Canadian Consolate another. Doesn't anyone find this just a little bit disingenuous?
Shouldn't people be pointing out his lack of sincerity on this issue?
And if Hillary was engaged in the same type of activity, shouldn't she be painted with the same brush.
I am shocked by the amount of peple that say the type of behavior is acceptable due to their dislike of NAFTA. If he really intends to do something about it, then do not promise the Canadians that it is hot air.
And by the way, this isn't the time to be blaming the Canadian government for this leak. Since when do US Presidential candidates get to negotiate in secret with the Canadians? If Obama was holding the Canadians up to be scapegoats, and he didn't really mean it, then he deserves to be exposed.
Posted by cdm | March 3, 2008 6:37 PM
Wow, CMike. I half-expected that essay to cut off right there and make you pay twenty bucks to learn the "magic bullet". Like one of those websites that promises to teach you to seduce anyone, but politically instead of sexually.
Posted by Observer | March 3, 2008 6:42 PM
The essay from CMike might be a bit more convincing if he didn't completely avoid discussing IllegalImmigration, something that those "CheapLabor conservatives" support.
And, it's something that almost all left leaders support as well.
Something doesn't add up.
Posted by NoMoreBlatherDotCom
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March 4, 2008 12:21 AM
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حربية Tribes 3 Vengeance كاملة
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حرب السفن لعبة فلاشية
حلوة لعبة الاعداء لعبة الجمباز لعبة كرة السله بالشارع
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Tom & Jerry Tales
2008حتموت من ضحك
احلى الصور الرومنسيه
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صور باربي.....
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Anime
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كونان
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جديد 2008 قصور واثار 2008 رهيب
صور فلل من الداخل
روعة ديكورات صالة غاية في
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غرف تحفة للأطفال
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زاهية نصائح حلوه لست بيت احلى
حلا جالكسي بالصور -
حلويات الجلكسي صور كيك - صور تورتة -
حلويات حلى وحلويات - حلى كرات
الباونتي صور حلويات - صور حلى
روائح المطبخ الكريهه
حلى بسيط وشكله غريب -
حلويات الرز بالزعفران - تمان
الزعفران الكاتشاب في البيت
حلى قبعات التخرج للناجحين
سلطة الزعتر شهية ولذيذة
** حــلآ بـشـكـل الـكـوره
** حلويات منوعة - بسبوسة
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ورونا شطارتكم بنات
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اسياخ المرتديلا تعلمي أحدث و أشهر طرق طبخ
الأرز المختلفة من الشيف جمال حلويات ........لذيذة
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الكسر احمي نفسك في غرفة نومك ..
موضوع هام للجميع الرقص فنٌ وهواية وكمال
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لتوقيت اغلاق الجهاز Free Portable Google
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"adtech ile reklam 2.0 dönemi başlıyor ve Trkycmhrytllbtpydrklcktr r10.net seo yarışması"
adtech ile reklam 2.0 dönemi başlıyor ve Trkycmhrytllbtpydrklcktr r10.net seo yarışması
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iso 14001
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perde
Posted by naber | July 26, 2008 2:31 PM
thank you
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Posted by sara22 | July 27, 2008 12:53 AM
thank you
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دردشة
رموز مسنجر
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شات اغليك
افلام
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قصات
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اناشيد اسلامية
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شعر و قصائد
قصص