How Do You Un-Torture Someone?

I'm trying to remember what if any proof was ever provided that could actually justify the need to use 'harsher' methods...hmm, was it to obtain information more quickly. Nope that didn't work. To obtain more accurate information. Hmm, yeah, well not so much. Or was it just to show the world we could do it.

Our place in the world systematically undermined because our intelligence community had a hard-on it had to show off.

By the time this trial winds its way through the system, what will we have actually obtained?

Thanks for this post, Karen. I was wondering how the introduction of evidence gained through torture would be handled. I assumed that they would just make up some rules that allowed them to do whatever they wanted; this is better.

this revelation that the government felt the need for an interrogation do-over actually hurts the Bush Administration's case in the court of international public opinion and also jeopardizes the legitimacy of any verdict that comes out of these trials.

Well, you're right, of course, but that's long, long, long been established. We know that we tortured KSM.

To me, this is actually good news. Somebody, somewhere said "no" to the administration. They said told him that the United States does not torture, that torture gives unreliable, inadmissible evidence. And then, that somebody got to actually implement policy!

Soft bigotry of low expectations, maybe, but the fact that somebody in the administration tried to do things right-- practically and morally-- is good news. It might be a first for this administration.

Thanks, KT, for this post.

It's very important that the media continue to give this issue high priority.

Thank you, Karen, for a post about something other than the presidential campaign. Now, get your cohorts to do the same, whydontcha?

From the White House briefing yesterday:

"Q It's going to be paid for as we go along, or in the future?

MS. PERINO: Well, we have been able to pay for the war and to bring down the deficit, but we are going to see an uptick in the deficit as a result of the economic stimulus package that the President will sign into law on Wednesday. Because we think that we need that economic stimulus package as an insurance measure in order to prevent an economic downturn."

To which our esteemed White House Press Corp followed-up with.......nothing.

It stuns me that there are those who continue to defend torture as a legitimate technique of interrogation on the right.

One good thing about McCain being the GOP nominee is that even if he wins in the fall, we can be assured that these abhorrent practices will stop.

Thank you so much for this excellent blogging, Karen.

Didn't we learn back in WWII that "time-tested rapport-building techniques" were far more effective than the Soviets' more coercive methods? Why do conservatives want to make us more like the Soviet Union?

Wake up KT, and read the memo from Mr. Stengel. Time Magazine will not protest the President's assertion of unlimited power. The President may do whatever he pleases, and Time-Warner-Moloch Corporation will jump to do his bidding. If the President asks TWM to break the law, the law will be broken, and TWM will be immunized retroactively by the servile Congress.

You work for an organization that rationalizes and defends the torture of human beings. If you had an ounce of human decency you would have resigned when Stengel approved Jay Torture-Question Carney's foul article on American "ambivalence" about torture.

You are no better than a writer for Pravda during the Cold War, spending all of you time evading the real issues and applying cosmetics to the ugly face of an authoritarian regime. Bush is a torturer, and you don't have the the guts to declare it, and risk your precious career by acting honorably.

You are ethically no different from Bush: a moral coward from Texas.

If this information was obtainable through "time-tested rapport-building techniques," why didn't they use them in the first place?

Among the group I interact with, I'm more inclined than most to grant that panic might have been a motivating factor in what went on in early 2002. By March of 2003 though, one could have expected a little sanity to settle back in to our thinking.

Not only was this not to be, but the flames of irrational fear and hatred were being deliberately fanned in order to justify the NEW invasion into Iraq, and the complicit press and the tendency of Americans to view the entire Middle east as a single entity all acted in concert to make sure that our blunder was irreversable.

So now, rather than allow for the fact that we were frightened and went a little overboard on things, the Senate is busy today ratifying the notion that no laws that were in place before 9-11 should actually have the force of law.

It's nice that your noticing that we've tainted any potential trials of these seriously evil people, but you're still barely scratching the surface when it comes to noting the erosion of our basic Constitutional principles.

Excellent post, Karen.

There is also the point that the information one gets through torture is inherently unreliable. The process itself generates false information.

But this terrific piece is only a start: connect the dots. What ideology in the United States got us here? Who are the "leaders" who led us on this path? What have we, as a people, lost? How do our acts help us on the Arab Street (assuming we are supposed to give a rat's ass about that today). Aren't these very important questions? More important that Joe's bi-weekly insertions of thermometers into the "Surge's" rectum?

And, later, you can do all the navel-gazing on the media's role in all of this -- starting with "24" and ending with "Time."

Do you have a link to that article HH?

In June of 1934, Adolph Hitler conducted a purge of some of his former Nazi colleagues, including Ernst Rohm. These men were summarily executed in a grossly illegal fashion. After some token investigations, the German legislature decided to legalize the action, because it was an "emergency" response to a "threat" to the government.

Today, in the US Senate, with the inclusion of telco immunity in the FISA bille, we are seeing a replay of Germany's Night of the Long Knives. The corporations are forcing through immunization from the law for any corporation that follows illegal orders of a US President.

This is not "news" that will be covered by Time-Warner-Moloch corporation, one of the beneficiaries of this new license for lawlessness.

>>
on July 13, 1934, Hitler justified the purge in a nationally-broadcast speech to the Reichstag:[47]

In this hour I was responsible for the fate of the German people, and thereby I became the supreme judge of the German people. I gave the order to shoot the ringleaders in this treason, and I further gave the order to cauterise down to the raw flesh the ulcers of this poisoning of the wells in our domestic life. Let the nation know that its existence—which depends on its internal order and security—cannot be threatened with impunity by anyone! And let it be known for all time to come that if anyone raises his hand to strike the State, then certain death is his lot.

Concerned with presenting the massacre as legally sanctioned, Hitler had the cabinet approve a measure on July 3 that declared, "The measures taken on June 30, July 1 and 2 to suppress treasonous assaults are legal as acts of self-defense by the State."[48] Reich Justice Minister Franz Gürtner, a conservative who had been Bavarian Justice Minister in the years of the Weimar Republic, demonstrated his loyalty to the new regime by drafting the statute, which added a legal veneer to the purge. Signed into law by both Hitler and Minister of the Interior Wilhelm Frick, the "Law Regarding Measures of State Self-Defense" retrospectively legalised the murders committed during the purge.[49] Germany's legal establishment further capitulated to the regime when the country's leading legal scholar, Carl Schmitt, wrote an article defending Hitler's July 13 speech. It was named "The Führer Upholds the Law".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Regarding_Measures_of_State_Self-Defense

Wow, HH, you really are an insufferable prick.

I am certainly insufferable.

The fine writers of Time Magazine, by contrast, are pillars of their journalistic community. When the people are shouting cries of praise for Caesar, they write articles praising Caesar. This is called "rendering unto Caesar." When Time-Warner-Moloch wants favorable regulatory treatment, it is always helpful to give good publicity to Caesar and his officials.

Corporations are run according to the principle of Caesarism: the strong, concentrated power of a visionary leader, like Rupert Murdoch, is what is desired in every CEO office. It was only a matter of Time before Caesarism became established as America's preferred form of Government. We can't rely on a lot of legal gobbledygook to keep us safe from enemies. We need a STRONG EXECUTIVE to protect us.

Why should Time-Warner_Moloch's executives object to giving an American Caesar retroactive immunity whenever he breaks the law? This is the same treatment TWM wishes to have for its own leaders. Strong executives rule by virtue of the power of their positions. The rest of us must simply obey.

Super. I wonder who performed these interrogations and who authorized them. To hell with the court of public opinion. What of the court of swearing to tell the whole truth and I Hearby Sentence You?

Great story, KT, thanks for keeping the administration's abhorrent--and apparantly wholly unnecessary--crimes front and center.
Getting back to the horse race. One of the responses above got me thinking of (what I, perhaps immodestly think is) a great question that nobody from the Fourth Estate has bothered to ask John McCain: Whether the occupation of Iraq lasts five more years or 100, at what point in a McCain administration would you put what have become the quite predictable costs of the occupation in the regular budget like the cost of our presence in, say, S. Korea?

From the Washington Post article:

The general public is going to be concerned about the validity of the testimony.
*************

The general public shall not care. In order for constitutional principles to remain ingrained in the consciousness of its citizens, its institutions must support the Constitution with their actions and their messages each generation.

Most members of this country's congress and the press and many members of the courts and the Justice Department have failed the Constitution and the People of the United States completely during the last fifteen years. They have decided to betray their offices or professions in favor of zealously serving a faction (i.e., the Republican Party) and/or seeking financial rewards for themselves, and/or guaranteeing for themselves the perks of celebrity and career advancement.

The fact is, a functioning democratic republic requires that the members of government institutions (and a particular private one, the press) jealously guard their own prerogatives, as Madison explained in his Federalist #51,:

*************
It is equally evident, that the members of each department should be as little dependent as possible on those of the others, for the emoluments annexed to their offices.

Were the executive magistrate, or the judges, not independent of the legislature in this particular, their independence in every other would be merely nominal.

But the great security against a gradual concentration of the several powers in the same department, consists in giving to those who administer each department the necessary constitutional means and personal motives to resist encroachments of the others. The provision for defense must in this, as in all other cases, be made commensurate to the danger of attack.

Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government.

But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.

In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
******************

For many years now, the loyalty of most elected and appointed Republicans have been to their party and its sponsors, not to their Constitution and country. The first loyalty of many elected Democrats has been to their careers, not to their Constitution and country.

The dirty little secret of our constitution is that if thirty-four senators will stand with the president in all matters, and not with the Constitution, then the president will have all the powers of a tyrant as George Bush surely has had.

The only reason George Bush will not serve out a term as president-for-life is that the conduct of elections is still a prerogative of states. (Of course, Bush v. Gore was a shot across that bow.)

But it is not just those serving in government who have failed us. Most academics, who purport to believe in the Constitution, have remained absent from the public debate or, with seeming intent, have participated fecklessly.

Of course, the greatest failure has been by that institution which; is constitutionally protected in the Bill of Rights, is in private hands, and must perform its duties as envisioned by the Founders for our constitutional form of government to survive. The greatest failure has been by the press which is now properly designated as "the corporate press."

Here's an account of that snowballing failure from the 1980s. We ignored this warning and have suffered the consequences.

Of course Karen would say that if we took time to listen to the kooks like Noam Chomsky we would have less time to listen to the serious thinkers like Joe Klein and Bill Kristol.

Value of Iraqi oil reserves at current prices:
$30 trillion.

Current approximate annual average cost of US occupation of Iraq:
$300 billion

Break even time for US occupation cost vs. oil reserve value:
100 years

McCain proposed duration of occupation of Iraq:
100 years

Why is HH a prick, Ozzie? I mean OK, "Time-Warner-Moloch" and the Hitler references may seem a little over the top, but doesn't the fact that your elected representatives - Repuublican and Democrat - just retroactively legalised domestic wiretapping seem a little, I don't know... prickular?

Goddess knows we need more insufferable pricks in this country these days.

>>
Of course Karen would say that if we took time to listen to the kooks like Noam Chomsky we would have less time to listen to the serious thinkers like Joe Klein and Bill Kristol.

Yessirree! You can trust Time Magazine to tell you what is really happening in the world. KT is ever vigilant in her defense of the official reality of CorpoAmerica.

CMike's article above is worth more than the last 500 "blog" posts of the Time staffers. This is what will happen after the rotted remains of CorpoAmerica's mass media are buried. Citizen journalism will assume the trusted role of the fourth estate, and we will be freed of the Richard Stengels of the world forever.

KM, Ana, Jay, and Chutzpah Joe are dead journalists walking into oblivion. Their betrayal of the American people will be answered by a decisive turn away from the institutions they foolishly served.

"Mistakes were made" will not satisfy a nation tricked into crimes and bloodshed, and we will learn to find the truth among trusted voices of the people on the public Internet.

"But this revelation that the government felt the need for an interrogation do-over actually hurts the Bush Administration's case in the court of international public opinion."

Um, the Bush administration authorized the use of torture and wants to try individuals for war crimes based upon evidence obtained thereby. There is no way to rehabilitate international public opinion after that.

by the way, was Saddam tortured?

after all, he must have had some secrets, maybe even about imminent attacks on US personnel.

why torture the petty thugs and not the person "supposedly" responsible for why iraq needed to be invaded?

dictocratic immunity?

Sully's linked to you, Karen.

منتديات دليل مواقع منتدى قريش منتدى صور الكون شبكة اسلاميه العاب مركز تحميل تحميل صور
اداره مواضيع المميزه تعارف تبادل نصي تبادل روابط نصيه اهدائات ترحيب تعارف خدمة الاعضاء الرئيسيه مواضيع اسلاميه مواضيع عامه نقاش حوار السياحه السفر الاخباريه جريمه اثاره الرياضه سيارات دراجات ناريه الاسره المجتمع شباب العربي ابناء ادم عالم حواء بنات حواء عالم الطفل الطفل الطب الصحه مطبخ الزواج الحياه الزوجيه ديكور اثاث منزلي اشغال يدويه الابداعات الشعريه الابداعات الادبيه همس القوافي شعر عذب الكلام خواطر قصص روايات ترفيهيه العاب مسابقات نكت ضحك فرفشه افلام انمي افلام كرتون المكتبه الصوتيه المكتبه السمعيه الابداع التصوير الفوتغرافي فوتشوب فلاش سويتش صور صور ورده تصاميم الاعضاء ابداعات الاعضاء تقنيه الالكترونيه الاتصالات كمبيوتر برامج كمبيوتر برامج ماسنجر ماسنجر هوتميل ماسنجر ياهو جوال موبايل برامج جوال ارشيف مواضيع مكرره مواضيع محذوفه

تفسير الاحلام المواقع القيادية جنس دليل المواقع صور ترحيب صور اطفال صور بنات صور حب رومنسية صور زهور صور صدام صور فنانات مكياج ماسنجر مسجات برامج 2008 برامج جديدة ازياء افلام كرتون دردشة العاب فلاش ديكور ازياء 2008قصائد شعرية دور بلوتوث ثيمات وسائط MMS تحميل ملفاتخطوط عربية نكت ديكور فوتوشوب صور فنانات اجابة
صور رسائل العاب بنات العاب اطفال الاكثر بحث قصائد software soft العاب تسريحات صور ديكور العاب قتالية العاب سباقات العاب ذكاء العاب رياضية العاب اكشن العاب متاهات العاب جديدة
برامج انترنت متصفحات إنترنت برامج ارسال رسائل جوال مجانية
برامج محادثات و ماسنجر برامج البريد الالكتروني برامج تنزيل و تحميل الملفات برامج تسريع الإنترنت و النت برامج تبادل و مشاركة الملفات برامج PDF وتحويل صيغها
برامج ويب كام WebCam تحديثات شاشات توقف
برامج خدمات الكمبيوتر خدمات الاجهزة برامج ادارة النظام برامج شبكات برامج استعادة الباسوورد برامج ضغط وفك ضغط الملفات نسخ احتياطي ادارة كلمات المرور برامج صوت وصورة برامج فيديو برامج صوت محولات الفيديو محول الصوتيات كوديك وتحديث الصوتيات والمرئيات برامج راديو وتلفزيون كوديك وتحديث الصوتيات والمرئيات برامج دي جي ادوات DJ برامج حماية و مكافحة برامج تحرير وتقطيع الفيديو برامج مكافحة ملفات التجسس برامج جدار ناري برامج بروكسي حماية الملفات والمجلدات برامج تصميم برامج تحرير واستعراض الصور نسخ الاقراص المدمجة برامج فلاش و سويتش برامج اصحاب المواقع محررات PHP Editor برامج FTP اكواد لغات البرمجة كتب و مكتبة برامج عربية ومعربة برامج هندسة و هندسة معمارية برامج اطفال برامج ترجمة اللغات برامج Portable برامج جوال برامج نوكيا برامج سوني اريكسون برامج جوال موتورلا العاب نوكيا برامج و العاب Pocket PC نغمات الجوال ثيمات الجوال العاب كمبيوتر العاب اكشن و مغامرات العاب رياضية

صور نانسي عجرم صور تامر حسني صور لميس
صور مدبلجين اصوات مسلسل سنوات الضياع صور ياسر القحطاني سيارات
معدله اسعار السيارات قصص روايات
نظارات شمسية فساتين العروسة مسكات حلوة جدا للعروس
مسنجر9 صور ماسنجر توبيكات
لعبة ترافيان شرح لعبة ترفيان دراغون بول