More on South Carolina

The Beltway media's message to identity politics: "We just can't quit you!"

Fascinating that Lyles accuses Bill Clinton of twisting Obama's words but then goes on to say that Hillary Clinton minimized the importance of Martin Luther King, a conclusion one could only draw by twisting Hillary's words.

Karen, why didn't you call Lyle out on that obvious hypocrisy (or at least point out the irony in your piece?)

KT here--

Mike M, I was not there to call him out. What I was doing with this post (and in my reporting in South Carolina) was making an honest effort to figure out what people were thinking, and particularly, to hear the perspective of African-American voters, whose life experiences are different from my own. I was listening, not engaging in a debate. Sometimes, even in the superheated political atmosphere in which we find ourselves, you can learn something from hearing what people have to say.

Fair enough, KT. But there's something more going on here. The guy says he's disappointed in how the Clintons are acting and then does precisely what he accuses them of doing. Sp what does that mean for the campaign? We can debate that, I guess. Might mean the guy's just angry. Might mean that the Clintons are being held to a double standard among minority voters (or at least one minority voter) or it might mean that this guy isn't the savvy political scientist he thinks he is. But I don't think you should have given him space to say something unfair about Hillary Clinton without some commentary to let the reader know that Lyles is either being wrong or dishonest. One could read your piece and come away with the impression that Hillary Clinton really did minimize the importance of MLK. That's a factual issue. Lyles shouldn't be given a forum to broadcast innacuracies like that. At least not without some context.

Why is it that you guys are only reporting that black people are upset by the Clintons' sleazy campaign? I'm a 30-something white male supporter of Obama and I'm at the point where I wouldn't vote for the Clintons for dog catcher.

It's as condescending to think that white people are dumb enough to fall for the Clintons' race-baiting dirty politics as it is to assume that black people will vote for Obama just because he's black.

Karen:

You probably know by now that I put a lot of the blame on the media for fanning the flames in the ongoing tussle between the Obama and Hillary camps.

Why did Time felt it appropriate to put a banner on their front page that said 'Obama's Race Question' when it was linked to Jay's blog titled 'Some Thoughts on today's primary'.

Many voters, being turned off by the taint of race, won't even bother to read Jay's blog, and leave your website with a negative picture of Obama.

She really DID minimize the importance of MLK. She stated a fact -- that MLK needed LBJ to pass civil rights legislation. But she glossed over the fact that the reason that MLK needed an LBJ to pass the legislation was that it was impossible for a black man to be president in the 60s. Think about that for two seconds and you can see why she deserved criticism for that.

Mike M, I think Hillary was trying to compare herself to LBJ (a strange comparsion given that he's not regarded as a great president), at least in terms of "getting things done". It was even stranger, because in doing so, she could be seen as comparing Obama to MLK, which is something I'd think she'd want to avoid... But her case was that MLK didn't pass the 1964 civil rights bill, LBJ did. Do you really think that it's such a stretch to view this as "minimizing MLK's contributions"? It certainly doesn't take much "twisting".

Of course, the patent ridiculousness of Bill Clinton trying to compare Obama to Jesse Jackson demonstrates that Lyles was absolutely correct. The only way Bill Clinton could've said "don't trust the black man" any more clearly is if he'd brought up the OJ trial.

Obama surrogates suggest that criticism of his inexperience or voting record is "racist". They also suggest that compliments (Joe "Obama is attractive and articulate" Biden and Bob "I like the fact that his family has a Muslim background" Kerry) are also "racist".

If these are the racial eggshells upon which Obama and his supporters expect Americans to tread, he's already lost the nomination

KT here--

I'm leaving soon to go to Swampkid's basketball game, but wanted to add one more thing:

Regarding the role of the media: Willie mentioned to me that this subject had been dominating black media, and particularly the talk radio shows that he listens to. When we talk about the media, it's worth remembering that not everybody is talking about the same thing.

I've also tried to remind myself that the plural of "anecdote" is NOT "data." (And the people you talk to at political rallies are not representative of average voters.) However, I think the results--and especially those jaw-dropping turnout numbers--suggest that Lyles' perspective was not an unusual one in the black community, which is why I decided to post it this morning.

This is a sensible post. I don't know how much blame for the polarization should be put on the media, and how much goes to the Clintons and their surrogates like Johnson and Shaheen.

"He's a former President, and it's one thing for you to campaign for your spouse, but it's a totally different thing for you to act like Tom DeLay against a Democratic candidate,"

That's exactly it. And Hillary's Rezco and "he says he liked Reaganism!" charges fall into that category, too.

Her LBJ remark was something off the cuff that I'm not too concerned about. I think the questioner said something like, "Obama's like MLK and he's awesome!" so she tried to revert to her "I'm more experienced" talking points, and it came out awkwardly.

JoeCHI, how many moons are there on your planet?

I'm seeing the Clintons through new eyes. I supported Bill all those tedious years of Republican investigation,and I probably failed to see just how much they twisted the truth because I found what the Republicans were doing deceitful and distasteful. But now as an Obama supporter it's very clear to me how skilled they are at giving a "meta-message" with nearly everything they say. We've really had enough of that, haven't we? They're whiny and entitled. Perhaps Hillary didn't intend to insult MLK- in fact I doubt very much that she did intend to do that - but when you intentionally imply that Barack is too young, for example, while disguising the implication as a compliment, you can complain if you're occaasionally misunderstood. Those who live by the verbal sword will die by the verbal sword.

JoeCHI, Biden's comment was more like, "finally a black candidate who's clean and articulate." He specifically mentioned that he was black. And Kerrey's comment was not labeled racist so much as it was regarded as a transparent attempt to fan rumors (or at least remind voters) that he comes from a Muslim family, and Islam is clearly the enemy to a lot of Americans these days. And I have yet to hear anyone in Obama's camp call criticism of his voting record "racist."

KathyR, I agree about the Clintons. That's perhaps the most depressing part of this for me - it reminds me why I liked Bill Clinton much more after he left the White House. (And I don't mean just in comparison with who replaced him.)

So Obama is too "young," even though he's a few months older than Bill was at the same point in the 1992 campaign?

He's too "inexperienced" even though he's been in elective office longer than Hillary, Edwards, or Romney?

So he's nothing more than "another Jesse Jackson," even though he's a US Senator, a former constitutional law lecturer at one of the top 10 law schools in the country, and editor of the Harvard Law Review?

I'm sorry. If you took just one of those comments and charges from Bill and Hillary, it might not be very serious. But those comments, and the MLK comment bunched together reveal a distinct pattern of a hypocritical dimunition of Obama based on racial innuendo. And the people in South Carolina got it.

Well the non-stop media war on the Clinton's has certainly had an effect. We are going from having three viable candidates, any one of whom would make a very good nominee, to having one. And, before the February 5th primaries.

As I said once before, we can save a lot of money and energy from now on and not bother with the November election -- they can just tell us who will be President.

Read this great column by Digby --

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/pecksniffian-twit-by-digby-peggy-noonan.html

Quote from Barack Obama --

***"I don't feel the candidates are being bloodied up. This is good practice for me for me so, you know, when I take on these Republicans I'll be accustomed to it."

And asked specifically whether he worried that Clinton's criticisms of him might come back to haunt the Democrats in the form of diminished black voter turnout in November, if Clinton is the nominee, Obama demurred. "Black voters shouldn't blame senator Clinton for running a vigorous campaign against me," he said. "That should be a source of pride. It means I might win this thing. When I was 20 points down I was a 'person of good character' and my health care plan was 'universal.' The fact that we've got this fierce contest indicates I'm doing well and I don't think there's anything wrong with that."

Damn straight. All this handwringing about how this is tearing the party apart is just Villagers working themselves up into a hissy. And it's this kind of thing that makes me want to see him win the nomination so he can make that Pecksniffian twit Peggy Noonan choke on her Pinot Grigio when he throws a hard, high fastball right between John McCain or Mitt Romney's eyes.***

Racial enmity exists in this county, but not in every word uttered. We will have either the first African-American nominee or the first woman nominee and will all be very proud if we can allow ourselves to appreciate that. Each of them has their own skills. Let's select the best nominee based on that.

Mike_M - Karen reported a conversation that seemed to her somewhat typical of a significant part of the electorate in South Carolina. This is hardly giving someone a platform, or endorsing the thinking behind the comment she quotes. As for whether Hillary intentionally minimized MLK or not, at the very least her words were insensitive on an important figure in black politics/history/civil rights issues - and, I would add, of fundamental importance in US history as a whole. If people feel indignant about that issue, they have the right to do so. Equally, I don't see why we should simply accept that you are "right" and Lyles is wrong. You disagree, which is fine, but please don't attack someone for reporting on a significant issue of voters.

What the older population doesn't realize is that young adults and youth have gotten beyond race and gender. They really don't see it. They do not view the world through that lens. Clinton made I suspect an unintentional mistake by putting the MLK issue in a black and white frame, the frame the new America rejects.

Mike M et al.

One of the complicating things going on here is that what people say is not the same as what people hear. It's hard, when you are in the dominant group*, to really empathize with what is being heard by the group that is treated as less important.

I saw this in an email exchange between friends discussing these indentity issues, regarding gender, not race. He referred to a remark (not important what it was) and she responded "well, what I hear there is shut up, b*tch." He did not see that in the remark, at all.

Likewise, I recall a friend who was treated very shabbily at a tony small retailer, and, for some reason, it occurred to her that had she been black, she would have attributed the rudeness to discrimination rather than incompetence. So, yes, sometimes perceptions can be erroneous. But that does not mean they are without foundation.

It's true that when looked at one at a time, these statements by the Clinton surrogates don't seem all that bad (except the Big Dog's Jesse Jackson quote, which was beyond the pale by any measure), but the serial, cumulative nature of them made it pretty clear even to me that this was part of a deliberate enterprise.

But when you've spent your life hearing these code words, having the equivalent of the cab drive by you, with arm upraised (my jaw dropped the first time I saw that happen, my much more dapper companion ignored until I raised my arm), I imagine you are more sensitive to them.

Coming from the Clintons, especially from Bill, could well be a sort of a poleaxing experience.

-----------------
*One of the educational elemnts to this campaign has been the discovery that the normal, default voter is a white male--that appeals to that voting group, by, say, a pheasant-hunting photo op is not playing identity politics--while appealing to any other group, even the voting group, white females, that cast the largest number of votes is identity politics. Tweety is an extreme version of this phenomenon, which is why he is a symbol of it, but it's an expression of a general frame that dominates coverage.

What the older population doesn't realize is that young adults and youth have gotten beyond race and gender. They really don't see it.

The republican strategists do. Moreover, they see that this whole "gays are icky" thing is also generational. This is why they are trying to create a firewall in the judiciary and DoJ to prevent these attitudes from penetrating the government for as long as possible.

It's interesting how often this theme recurs--republicans creating barriers to prevent popular policy from becoming expressed. This starts with voter suppression, legally and illegally, but carries through to everything from their scorched earth oppostion to universal health care to support for an authoritarian executive, acting free of constraint by the First Branch.

One would think this strategy would be worth reporting on.....

A report in support of Derek's point. Youth turnout was huge again. I think young people are worried about their future.

Karen,

You know that I think the media has excessively discussed this issue and their obsession with it has bordered on pathological. God, did anyone see Stephanopolis this morning? What a clown.

That being said, I will take you at your word that you are making a good faith effort to understand the perspectives of someone other than yourself.

But I challenge you to broaden your thinking beyond the binary. So often the questions posed are either/or. Are the clintons racists or are they not racists? Is so-and-so playing the race card or not playing the race card?

The truth of the matter is that there is a spectrum of political activity that incorporates race, subtley or not-so-subtlely, into the discussion.

The important point is that there is a very hazy middle ground in which the perception of whether or not one has crossed a proverbial line is somewhat in the eyes of the beholder. This is important because what we are talking about is within the 40 yard lines so to speak. Nobody is taking the racial ball into the endzone and having a Keith Richards/Kramer moment. The problem within these 40 yard lines is that good people can disagree about what is actually happening and there really is not an objective gold standard reality to make our decisions on. There are no perfect referrees either.

Look at the different reactions to the Don Imus thing within your villager peers and you can see how different people can look at the same situation very differently.

In this hazy middle area, the stuff that crosses the line to some, will always be subtle. It will be plausibly deniable code words. It will be the use of paralepsis as in Bill Clinton "just randomly" comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson. Nobody is going to stride accross "the line" People like the clintons are going to put their toe briefly over the line, say in effect "Nah Nah Nah Boo Boo" and then bring their foot quickly back. This is wink and nudge stuff that is perfectly calibrated to provoke people who are sensitive based on their histories and backgrounds to the realities of the insidious ways that race still plays a big role in American life, but not be so blatant to evoke the ire of people who don't have that experience and are more primed to think that people are making much ado about nothing.

I find that the media is not good at describing subtlety and usually falls in the intellectually dishonest trap of framing everything as an either/or proposition. But real life isn't like that, Karen. Thanks for yuour attempt to get another perspective on the matter, but please try to understand that this is a murkier issue than you are framing it to be.

Jay,

I think I'm sensitive to what you're saying but I'm frustrated by the coverage the Clinton's have gotten. It's like the media turned on them and they did it because of that villager distaste for bareknuckle politics. Does Lyles think Bill stepped over the line because Bill stepped over the line, or because the media told him that Bill stepped over the line? Given that Lyles' example was from that media narrative, I suspect that the media has had at least some effect.

Now it seems like the media is piling on and that the Clintons are being punished for campaigning hard. But this narrative is going to hurt us no matter who gets nominated because the media will spend the entire general election fretting over which group got left out, won't show up at the polls, or whatever...

It's time to push back on this. Hillary and Bill are fighting fair, Obama's not a victim, there's nothing wrong with tough campaigning. Let's leave it at that.

jayackroyd some people are so politically incorrect they don't even know they are politically incorrect. If I was Clinton I would stop arguing that Obama cannot win because he is black. As a matter of fact I wouldn't bring race up again.

I thought it was a nice post Karen, There is a subset of blog commenters (here and on TPM) who lash out at any post that doesn't venerate their candidate, Obama or Clinton. It's ridiculous.

As far as "Minimizing" MLK, I think that's a fair criticism. Sorry. I know what she was trying to say, but it came out wrong. I mean, obviously it came out wrong because what candidate would compare themselves to LBJ and their opponent to MLK? I know what she probably meant to say, but you have to "twist" it to get the more realistic interpretation, not the other way around. Even so, it's not racist, but it did offend some people who really like MLK, including people who worked with him personally (such as Clybourn)

And the other problem is the comments of lots of surrogates like Bob Johnson, Cuomo, etc. "Shuck 'n' Jive", "Sidney Poitier", "Cool Black Friend", and now "Jessy Jackson". Hillary defenders often only defend the most reasonable statements, while ignoring the more problematic ones.

"Did the Clinton campaign play the race card?"

This IS a volunteer position for you, correct?

"...Clinton campaign strategists denied any intentional effort to stir the racial debate. But they said they believe the fallout has had the effect of branding Obama as "the black candidate," a tag that could hurt him outside the South..."

Maybe the local Salvation Army IS hiring.

Oh well.

HILLARY HAPPENS.

I don't think it's fair to say that Lyle didn't form his opinion on his own. But I agree with you otherwise. The media coverage is driving this--and the youth turnout, and support for Obama is a much bigger story than the degree to which the race card has been played.

It's has been traditionally difficult to turn out young people. If Obama is appealing to them, then that's a big story. Whether Obama is a cause or an effect, it's important, not just in this election but, like other branding decisions, party affiliation made before the age of thirty tend to stick.

Having written off the Hispanic immigrant vote, the republicans can ill afford to lose the under 30 voting population.

Lets see now. Hillary hold a rally at a black church presided over by an Obama supporter, and the crowd is mostly white. The black preacher then falsely asserts that Clinton had minimized the role of MLK in getting the civil rights act passed.

The most significant part of this story is that so many white democrats attended a rally in a black church.

The least significant thing is that few of the black parishioners showed up, given that we know that the leader of the church was spreading falsehoods about what Hillary had said.

***************
KT wrote, in response to someone pointing out that Lyles had repeated a myth about Hillary Clinton minimizing the importance of MLK....

What I was doing with this post (and in my reporting in South Carolina) was making an honest effort to figure out what people were thinking, and particularly, to hear the perspective of African-American voters, whose life experiences are different from my own. I was listening, not engaging in a debate. Sometimes, even in the superheated political atmosphere in which we find ourselves, you can learn something from hearing what people have to say.

so that means that reporters are free to treat statements from ill-informed people that Obama is a muslim as if it was an established fact? That there is no need to correct the record when this misinformation is part of someone's criticism of Obama?

This is straight out of the Judith Miller school of journalism -- the journalistic philosophy that says "its not my job to determine what is true and false. And its certainly not my job to challenge people that I will be quoting authoritatively. I merely to report what people have told me."

The real travesty here is that there was every reason to suspect that Obama would get the lions share of black voters -- the real story here is that Obama got only 24% of the white vote, when in other states he's been getting between 34%-38%. As Karen would say "SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING", but no effort has been made to explain what that "something" was.

Speaking of John McCain does anyone think the press will go after him for his vicious attacks on the Mormon, Mitt Romney? Something like the way they are constantly attacking Clinton for racism.

Is McCain saying all Mormons are terrorist appeasers, or just Milt Romney? We already know that McCain believes 75% of the people in the nation are terrorist sympathizers.

Even though I ended up voting for Hillary yesterday, I was happy to see Obama win. I do feel as if the issue of race was unfairly covered by the media however in regards to SC. I'd really like to see a good story on how the much bandied figure of only 10% of white voters going for Obama in SC got to be conventional wisdom. Wouldn't getting 24% of that vote argue for a reverse Bradley effect if indeed the original number was true? Or was that number an outlier used by the media to make race a bigger issue in this campaign?

Thanks, Mediasux -- that's what I was trying to say. Karen's stenography repeats a lie here, I'm afraid.

Let us see what happens when Barack campaigns in predominantly white states and those that have gone Republican for a long time. If he can do well there that will tell us something. SC is not typical: and it is good to see Black voters turn out and support Obama. Why shouldn't they'? For a longtime now they were reliable Democrats who really had no choice.

But a caution: if Obama's supporters cry foul when race is raised elsewhere it will not be as effective. The Black vote for him in SC will be thrown back at him. If it okay for Blacks to vote for Obama it should be okay for Whites to vote for "X".

The MSM cannot be relied on to be circumspect. They will inflame things in the interest of "honest"reporting.

Karen asked the question "Did the Clinton campaign play the race card?", and then essentially answers it by stating that many S.C. African-Americans felt like this happened, so what did or did not happen in reality doesn't actually matter.

That's where we are today--reality doesn't matter, only perceptions. That means that we, i.e. the reality-based community don't matter. This is a terrible blow to our politics and our hopes for a better future. It means the next time we're confronted with ambitions to invade another Iraq, we'll invade another Iraq. It means the next time we're confronted with a Gulf Coast in ruins, another Gulf Coast will remain in ruins. The past seven years have demonstrated conclusively that a government operating on the basis of perceptions instead of reality is by definition incapable of solving the nation's critical problems. We were supposed to change that. That's the fundamental change we all need in Washington.

What about anything that we have just witnessed would lead a rational person to believe that our electoral process has been immunized from Swift-Boating through our own efforts? Wasn't that the goal we were all reaching for--for all the candidates, Democrats and Republicans? Weren't we going to establish the crucial role of truth in our political processes and our government, and triumphantly cast the specters and mirages of manipulated perceptions into the gutter where they belong? Wasn't reality the common framework that would allow us to come together with the shared purpose of setting right what cries out so desperately to be set right?

I'm so disturbed and revolted by this whole mess and what it portends for the country, no matter who wins or loses in this primary or the general, that I don't really feel like commenting further, other than to sincerely congratulate RKA on the Obama campaign's electoral success in the South Carolina Democratic primary.

Or was that number an outlier used by the media to make race a bigger issue in this campaign?

it was an outlier, from the MSNBC/McClatchy survey.

Looking at the polls found at www.pollster.com, the rest of Obama's "white" precentages were from 18-24%... and the lower the percentage, the higher the "undecided" white voter percentage.

But there's nothing like using bad data to hype a controversy based on distortions to begin with...

@stuart_zechman

Perception has always mattered more than the reality in politics - and that's as true today as it was in 300 B.C. Most people neither have, nor ever will have, the information or skills to figure out the "truth" on any given issue, since the data is ambiguous, and the means of sifting generally little better. That's before you get into questions of intent, which makes matters worse.

We shouldn't imagine that today is significantly worse, in this regard, than any other time at history. I know this is a less melodramatic approach, but we should not assume the worst of the present day because we believe the past to have been nicer, or to have exercized better judgment. To offer you one example - why did so many people misjudge Hitler's intentions so completely?

Well said Stuart: and all power to Obama. We have not learned much, have we? We yearn for someone like Kennedy, we wanted to have a beer with a man from Texas, we now want to be led by a man who promises a genuine effort to make friend and influence peole with across the aisle unity. When it comes to real politics the Republicans have shown time and again that Democrats are dreamers and Republicans are doers. They don't want to stress that they have really done us in.

Frankly I have little faith in any Democratic candidate succeeding given our extraordinary ability to eat our own.

Stuart, thanks for the congratulations, but I would add that I think that objectivity in matters of race eludes all of us, even those in the "reality-based community," especially when the matters at hand, as I said in my earlier post, are within the 40 yard lines.

There is an objective reality when it comes to the presence of WMD's in Iraq. I am much less certain that there is an objective reality when it comes to perceptions of racially-tinged speech.

Remember, part of being a liberal is the ability to put oneself in another's shoes. That's what we claim to do so much better than the republicans. So I think we should be careful to be dismissive of others perceptions and too confident in ourselves as the ultimate arbiters of truth. I say this as someone who is frequently guilty of being dismissive of anti-Obama perspectives, so I ain't perfect by any means.

I am long past the point of believing that I can convince you of anything, Stuart. But I sincerely see Obama-ism as a huge step towards a reality-based discourse. He's not perfect and he's certainly needed to come off the pedestal in the last few weeks, but I believe he is a different animal at heart than the rest. He doesn't feign infallibility nor does he embrace dogma. I think those are two key determinants of a reality based politics.

I realize some may have serious disagreements with his positions on some things and perhaps his rhetoric, but I hope many will see through all of that and look at how he fundamentally approaches problems and how despite his calls for unity, he is much more likely to bring others to a fundamentally progressive agenda than to make triangulating compromises on it.

It is sad to read this thread and realize that among those who are the best informed on contemporary issues, there are a lot of Democrats who have no idea of the complexity and breadth of the post WWII Civil Rights movement. Harry Truman, LBJ, Hubert Humphrey, and the Warren Court Justices, among others in the federal government, played crucial roles in advancing the cause of racial equality.

Of course there were grass roots organizations and private citizens at the root of the movement; the NAACP, Thurgood Marshall, the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X, the CORE, the SNCC, the Little Rock Nine, James Meredith and on and on.

Many individuals and organizations contributed to the advance of racial equality in America during the post WWII "King years." The legacy of Martin Luther King, Jr. and the SCLC is in no way diminished by recognizing these facts.

It seems obvious to me that a discussion of the civil rights contributions made by previous presidents should be included in any campaign to determine who should be the next president. And when it comes to advancing or guaranteeing civil rights, believe it or not, presidents are important.

of course, KT also advances the uninterogated but constantly repeated conventional wisdom that the Clintons lifelong record is one of unimpeachable support for African Americans and civil rights, in spite of the fact that Bill's "new democrat" bona fides were almost entirely built on rebuking the civil rights establishment (e.g. his "sister souljah" moment at PUSH), electrocuting a mentally incompetent prisoner, advancing a welfare reform that was rejected by black leaders, the capitulation on Lani Guiner (sp), etc., all of which may have been the right things to do, but don't speak to an unimpeachably sympatico relationship btwn the Clintons and the black political establishment (never mind the grass roots) in re: the cause of civil rights and issues of race in this country. i'll be happy when race recedes as an issue, but while we're still talking about it, i wish the media would start questioning some of the erroneous assumptions of this generally silly and counterproductive conversation.

Let us see what happens when Barack campaigns in predominantly white states and those that have gone Republican for a long time.

South Carolina IS a predominately white state that has gone Republican for a long time. South Carolina is 29.4% black. Iowa is 96% white and went Republican in 2004, and Obama won by 5% with Hillary coming in third. What states are you talking about, Wyoming?

And it is also true that the media, with its obsession on conflict, played a large role in fanning the emotions that surrounded this election. But Lyles was far from the only African-American voter that I talked to who felt that way.

It's been my experience that many people, no matter what their racial or ethnic backgrounds are, regurgitate the talking points that are pounded into their heads 24/7 by our media overlords. That's why, IMHO, the media has been so incredibly irresponsible this year.

As Bill Maher, hardly a Clinton partisan, pointed out the other night, he couldn't find a single instance of Hillary or Bill Clinton saying anything that was even remotely racially tinged. No, the media just made that stuff up, using wild misrepresentations and gross distortions.

Karen, I think you're one of the more honest people in the media, but I have to tell you this: There are some days I don't know who I loathe more, the right wing, who control the Republican Party and whose goal is the destruction of the American democratic republic, or the so-called "liberal media," who enable the right wing by regurgitating their smears and lies as if they were fact.

That's where we are today--reality doesn't matter, only perceptions. That means that we, i.e. the reality-based community don't matter. This is a terrible blow to our politics and our hopes for a better future. It means the next time we're confronted with ambitions to invade another Iraq, we'll invade another Iraq.

That's absurd. WMD's are physical things. the "Race Card" is not a physical thing. It only exists as a perception, and so perception really is the only thing that matters. There is no way, absolutely no way to know what is going on inside the heads of Clinton staffers. But, if they behave in a way that appears to be playing the race card, they are in a sense doing so. Sorry.

But it's something that simply cannot be quantified, like the existence of WMDs.

You want to talk about racism? Yeah, think back to early September, 2005, after Katrina hit. Think about all those Republicans like William Bennett and Jonah Goldberg, and their surrogates in the media, and throughout the South. People imprisoned inside a football stadium and shot on sight while trying to escape. THAT, my friends, was naked, bare, ugly, vicious American racism. Racism in America under a Republican administration ensured that a beautiful and historic city and her citizens were left to drown and to die.

Now Baracksters, but NOT Senator Obama, egged on by a gleeful media, are falsely reading "coded racism" into every word and phrase. A reference to MLK? A reference to Jesse Jackson's campaign? ? Fairy tale? Roll the dice? LBJ signed the Civil Rights Bill? Obama should put a stop to this immediately, because his supporters are trivializing his ability to campaign on his merits and alienating potential supporters who may not agree with all of his positions.

The danger here is that Obama supporters shreiking "Racism!!!!" where there is none are going to cause a lot of people to tune them out. It's the same with "Anti-Semitism!!!!" when someone criticizes the government of Israel. Eventually people will tune you out after being constantly and unjustly accused of racism or anti-Semitism. And it cheapens the word. So when you encounter true racism on the scale of Katrina, you have nothing but a trivialized cliche to describe it.

You want to see *real* racism? You ain't seen nothing yet. Just think back to after Katrina, and expect more of that in the general campaign. Because the Republicans, they can't govern, but they do racism very, very well. Where will your friends and supporters be then?

To argue that the Clintons played the race card is ludicrous. They are much smarter politicians than that. Anyone who knows politics would know not to intentionally anger an important wing of the party (esp. when they make up about 50% of voters in the S.C. primary).
Also, to think they did this to turn out whites is even more ridiculous. It is obvious that someone other than the Hillary campaign flamed the fires of race (see Barack Obama and his campaign). It is unfortunate that the voters who voted based on this are either too ignorant or too careless to see that.
What makes it worse is that they call the Clintons liars, but they see Obama as an angel. There's no question they are on an equal playing ground. (See Obama's $$$ and Bill Clinton). The media scrutiny should be at the least equal for all of the candidates, or possibly more so for Barack since Hillary has been around since the 1980s.

-S

PS I am a Hillary supporter, but will gladly cast my general election vote for Obama if he wins the primary.

It is obvious that someone other than the Hillary campaign flamed the fires of race (see Barack Obama and his campaign).

Frankly, I don't think the Obama campaign is behind the fanning of the flames. This is just more ratf**king from the GOP Smear/Propaganda/Brainwashing Machine, in collaboration with their presstitutes in the so-called "liberal media." The GOP Machine sends out the talking points, and the presstitutes copy and paste them into their articles and scripts.

TIME's original headline for the Karen Tumulty piece was "Obama's Rout Rejiggers the Race" An odd and unfortunate verb given that the substance of the piece dealt with race. A (racist) Freudian slip that led to the revised headline "Obama's Rout Reshapes the Race"?

James, your argument is interesting.

You are basically saying that Hillary should not be responsible for the words of her campaign strategist (Penn), national co-chair (Shaheen), senatorial endorser (Kerrey), campaign operatives (Hip Black Friend to guardian guy), Billionaire endorser on stage with her (Johnson), or her husband, but that Obama will be irreparably harmed by the words of random commenters like me whose words are read only by a select few.

Ha.

The fact of the matter is that Obama and his surrogates have been remarkably restrained. Yeah, you can argue JJ Jr. and Dick Harpolitan went a bit off the reservations, but they are exceptions that prove the rule. You have to give Obama credit for some stuff though. With all the brough-ha-ha over the last three weeks, we have heardly narry a peep from Al Sharpton or Jesse jackson. They might as well be in an undisclosed location with Dick Cheney. I realize that you won't be saitisfied unless every last person in America, affiliated with the campaign or not, keeps their mouth shut. But maybe you're just frustrated that Obama himself has largely not taken the (race) bait put out by your compatriots.

I don't really know what you are trying to say, RKA. I'm just noting that by shrieking about race to the exclusion of Senator Obama's campaign messages his supporters are playing into the media narrative which, during the general, will be dominated by the GOP. You are doing your candidate no favor by bludgeoning unaffiliated but interested people like myself over the head with false cries of racism. Eventually people begin to resent that, or to roll their eyes and tune out.

Since you and a few other Obama supporters seemed to have forgotten (or haven't been paying attention to) what real racism is, I remind you to look back at the aftermath of Katrina and how the Republicans do racism.

If Senator Obama wins the nomination, he's going to have to deal with a media whose narrative is dominated by the GOP, and the myriad vicious attacks the likes of which you don't see in Democratic races. He'll need the whole Democratic Party working on his behalf. You don't really want to alienate so many of us this early, do you?

James:

This is what I've been (ineffectively) trying to say to RKA (and many more Obama supporters online).

Thanks.

First, James, I don't say that other commenters like you are racists. My fire is trained squarely on the Clintons and the media. I have no beef with you personally. If I disagree with your ideas, I will agressively debunk them to the best of my ability. If I hurt your feelings in the process, my apologies. At worst, I view you all as enablers for bad behavior. You're not an alcoholic, but you may be a bartender serving one.

But I have to say that the tenor of anti-Obama posters tends to be a lot more vitriolic than that of pro-Obama supporters. I see the anti-Obama folks much more frequnttly resorting to childish profanity and name-calling, frankly. And Lord, the way that you all often personally eviscerate Joe Klein and others is what makes you all look like foaming-at-the-mouth dittohead-like thugs. I honestly would say that some of your boorish behaviors ain't doing HIllary any good with her coverage. The thuggish behavior of some HIllary supporters/apologists (who are really Dodd supporters, of course) is kind of consistent with how the HIllary campaign acts themselves and there is a backlash forming against it. You can call me crazy, but Ted Kennedy dropped his perch of neutrality precisely because of the same sentiments that I am feeling with regard to the clintons and race.

Ok, James and Stuart, lets address your main point that the stuff the Clintons is doing does not rise to the level of "real racism"

Fair enough.

So I would like to see if your views are consistent when applied to a controversey between Paul Krugman and David Brook this fall about whether or not Reagan kicking off his campaign in 1980 in Philadephia, MS talking about states rights was racial code or not.

As a refresher, here is Krugman's view:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/10/innocent-mistakes/

And here is David Brooks' view:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/09/opinion/09brooks.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

So, james and stuart, it would seem to me that in order for you to be consistent in your beliefs about what crosses the line in racial speech,you would need to agree with David Brooks and not Paul Krugman, one of your demigods.

Look, if you tell me you agree with Brooks, then I can at least respect your views on what constitutes acceptible racial speech as principle, not pro-HIllary expediency.

I would hope that you don't have one standard for the Clintons and another for republicans. Because that would just play into the republican talking points that liberals just like to use race to beat up the republicans but they are really hypocrites on the issue. That liberal only give lip service to the concerns of black people when it benefits them electorally and the blacks vote for white candidates, but that gets all thown out the window when a black candidate is running.

That, my friends, is playing into republican talking points far more than saying that social security might need some more money at some point.

For the record, I think Paul Krugman's silence on what is happening to Obama, when viewed in the context of his views on the 1980 Philadephia MS speech, is hypocritcal and totally undermines his credibility. He says that Reagan speech, which has just as much plausible deniability as the Clintons' current tactics, can't just be accidents. Yet that is the exact same thing many HIllary apologists are saying about the behavior of her campaign.

There's a big difference, in my experience, between what a white male would consider
"racist" and the impact the same words would have in the black community. You can't measure them by the same standard. Equally, what may seem like a not-so significant historical point can have a tremendous impact in a different community. My impression is that many black people see slavery as essentially demeaning someone, reducing their humanity, and that's why it resonates so strongly when Bill Clinton seems to be patronising or demeaning Obama or lessening his schievements, especially when he draws parallels not with other white Democrats, but specifically with black Democrats, who, as we know, got labelled "black" candidates and were therefore considered unelectable. It may not seem racist to Clinton, although the cumulative effect of what he and the Hillary campaign have said leaves me asking myself how non-racists end up surrounded by apparently racist friends and apparently unaware of the times they say things that really do walk the line.

However, because Bill doesn't think he's racist doesn't mean that others will feel that way. I'd suggest that the burden on white people denying Clinton's racism is to ask whether they might not be reading this in a biased way, or perhaps from a viewpoint which does not have enough sensitivity to the black experience and awareness of racially charged language and code words. There's a certain hypocrisy in denouncing the black community for not having the "right" reaction, or a campaign for feeling slighted after a tendentious comparison. I'd suggest that they have the right to assess their own feelings, and to express them, without cheap shots from the peanut gallery.

RKA,

I appreciate your interest and your enthusiasm in the political process. It is heartening to watch how involved and engaged that the younger demographic groups are about Obama's candidacy. We haven't really seen that for 40 years.

Your attempt to classify me as some kind of a closet Clinton supporter is far, far off base. Now, I have great respect for Senator Clinton. Her knowledge and grasp of policy is vast and impressive. I am less than enthusiastic about her positions on constitutional issues. I detest her smarmy campaign managers and advisers.

Similarly, I have great respect as well for Senator Obama and for John Edwards. I think that any of the three candidates will make a fine, fine president.

You lose credibility when you accuse people like me of being "anti-Obama." Not only do you lose credibility, but that kind of baseless rhetoric tends to alienate people who would otherwise be allies. You have baselessly equated Bill Clinton's remarks with Ronald Reagan's intentional pursuit of the white Southern racists, who had at that time so very recently come over to the Republican Party after the passage of the Civil Rights bills under the LBJ administration. I understand that your knowledge of that history is lacking; but your equating Bill Clinton's statement with Reagan's speech in Philadelphia, Mississippi to kick off his campaign is not only very, very wrong , but offensive. I'll give you the credit of believing that you are too youthful to understand the history there.

Let me tell you something about Ron Fournier, who wrote that "black candidate" piece. Go back for a closer read of that, if you will. Very odd phrasing and sourcing, in my opinion. Fournier has been covering the Clintons since the 1980's as an Arkansas journalist. His anti-Clinton body of work goes back a long way and I invite you to go to a library and read a sample of his work. Fournier and his pack are only too happy to return to the "get Clinton" era. I take absolutely nothing that he writes at face value, nor should anyone else. Exactly who was that anonymous source, I wonder?

You are not helping your candidate at all by running with every dubiously sourced report by the likes of Ron Fournier, nor by reading "coded" racism into every statement by another campaign. I'm on your side, and we have a long, long way to go until November.

James, We clearly disagree on what the Clinton campaign is doing, but I respect your point of view and we can leave it at that. Perhaps there is a generational difference between our persepctives. If you are a boomer yourself, maybe you might want to remember how you viewed your parents' generation back in the 60's. I have grown up during a period of time during which "real racism" has been largely unacceptible and univrsally condemned. And thus my standards on racial speech may be higher than those who were around to see what happened in the 50's and 60's.

I would go back to one point that stuart made about the "Reality-based community" vs the falsehoods that emanate from the media.

This article is fascinating:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/27/AR2008012702160.html

The point that I want to make here is that while some say that Obama has a secret pact with the villagers who are hell-bent on destroying HIllary (something I vigorously disagree with and argue the opposite, in essence), this article shows that Obama is doing little to try to shape the villager narratives, especially in comparsion to Hillary.

You could make a fair criticism of HIllary as such: "Live by the villager, die by the villager."

Obama, whatever his coverage may be, really is not playing that game to the extend that others normally do.

I am black and really, I dont think either Bill or Hillary were being racist. Can someone please state a clear example of what they did that was racist?

I think the fundamental problem is that people (including the press) are extremely passionate about Obama's candidacy and there is nothing wrong with that. Infact, that is a good thing.

I also do not see anything wrong with Bill supporting his wife. Who wouldnt support his wife? In a way, I think he feels guilty and wants to do his best to make her win as a way of erasing the guilt he has about cheating on her.

My main problems with the Obama supporters is the fact that they always attempt to demonize Hillary while anointing Obama as a saint. The press is very guilty of this. I will like for once if people can become objective. Let us consider the various strengths and weaknesses of each candidate and not on our emotions.

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مكياج بنات -ميك اب 2008 -
تسريحة العروس -تسريحات شعر -تسريحات عرايس -
احدث القصات -صبغات 2008 -نضارات شمسيه -
تسريحات -مناكير -
اكسسوارات للبنوتات -احذية كريستيان -
احذية ديور Dior -سلاسل قلوب -
ديكور -غرف نوم -اثاث -
73 --73-p-3 --73-p-5 -
غرف نوم -غرف نوم بنوتيه -ديكورات -غرف نوم وردي -اكسسوار حائط -ورق جدران -
كوشات عروسه -ديكورات ماء -
مطابخ روعة -عالم البنوتات -
عالم البنات -ديكورات روعه -
غرف اطفال -مسابح -مكاتب وجلسات -مغاسل منزليه -
مخدات رومنسية -مغاسل حمام -
مخدات -صور ديكورات مطابخ -
ديكورات مطابخ 2008 -احلى ديكورات مطابخ -
ديكورات حمامات -اثاث 2008 -صور فلل -
ديكورات صالة -قصور واثاث -
معجنات -حلويات -اكلات -مطبخ -
طبخ -38 -
38-p-6 -38-p-9 -38-p-12 -38-p-3 -
38-p-14 -صور حلى -
صور حلويات -عمل بوفيه -
حلويات الجلكسي -حلا جالكسي بالصور -
حلى وحلويات -صور كيك -
صور تورتة - حلويات -اعشاب -
تغذية -رجيم -
طب -صحة -
71 -71-p-5 -
71-p-3 -71-p-7 -
التدليك -المساج -
جميلات العرب -اليسا - -
صور طبيعية -صور قلوب - -
صور رومنسية -بلوتوث مزايين - -البوم صور مزايين - -
صور ماسنجر -وسائط - -
صور حب -
صور بنات -صور بنات للمسن - -
العاب مكياج و ميك اب - -العاب ازياء - -العاب مغامرات - -
العاب بنات - -العاب تلبيس بنات - -العاب باربي - -
العاب بلياردو - -العب - -العاب -
العاب - -العاب فلاش - -66 - -
العاب بنات - -العاب أزياء - -
العاب مكياج - -العاب ميك اب - -
العاب باربي للبنات - - العاب باربي - -
العاب تلبيس - - العاب بنات - -
مكياج ملكة - العاب مكياج - -العاب اميرة - مكياج وميك - -
مكياج باربي كين - العاب - -لعبة مكياج الأميرات العاب - -
مكياج الفتيات العاب - -لعبة كاونتر سترايك -
لعبة مكياج فتاة جميلة -مكياج الورود لعبة مكياج - -
العاب أزياء - العاب بنات -العاب مكياج و ميك اب العاب لعب جديدة وحصرية - -
لعبة سوبر ماريو - -دراجون بول للتحميل لعبة - -
العاب باربي - العاب باربي - -لعبة حرامي السيارات - لعبة GTA - San Andreas - -
تلبيس الجاسوسات الثلاث -العاب بنات - العاب تلبيس -
لعبة تسديد على الزجاجه - -لعبة Medal Of Honorلعبة اتارى العاب فلاش -لعبة الدودة العاب فلاش -
لعبة بلياردو حديثة -لعبة توصيل الطماطم -
ميك اب و اكسسوارات للبنات -لعبة ميك اب متنوع -
ملابس المهنة لعبة للبنات - -لعبة تنس المضرب - -
لعب : ميك اب فتيات - -مكياج شتوي لعبة بالفلاش - -ترتيب غرفة في المنزل -
لعبة اكس او x-o - -لعبة الرجل الطائر -لعبة توم و جيري العاب -
البيت المرعب الفلاشية -تصوير الفنانات لعبة - -صندوق الكنز لعبة فلاشية -
لعبة روليت كازينو -لعبة الصبر - -فري سل لعبة الذكاء -
لعبة بلوت سوليتير -لعبة تركيب القطة بوسى -لعبة كرة قدم فلاشية -لعبة الرجل الأخضرالفلاشية - -لعبة الطائرة المجنونة -
لعبة دهس الناس بالسيارات -لعبة الشبح والاشباح -
لعبة تعليم الطبخ - -لعبة مكياج للبنات -
تلبيس الباربي بالفلاش - -لعبة Prison Break بريزن بريك - -
قيادة دراجة السكوتر من احلى العاب السباقات - -لعبة سباق السرعة - -
سباق سيارات لعبة حلوة - لعبة شطرنج لمحبيها فقط -
العاب فلاش لعبة قتال النينجا - -المحارب اليوناني - -
لعبة مصارعة رومانية -محارب الاشباح تعال اذا - -
لعبة سوبر مان - -قتال الليل لعبة فلاشية -
ماتركس لعبة حلووة -العاب لعب العاب بنات العاب باربي العاب متنوعة العاب اكشن العاب تسلية - -
لعبة اختبر ذاكرتك -مونوبولي لعبة الشراء والاحتكار وعربية - -
لعبة الاختلافات بين الصور - -حرب السفن البحرية - -
من سيربح المليون - -لعبة السلالم - -
قوة الفا لعبة طائرات - -Tribes 3 Vengeance كاملة - -
لعبة الجواهر المتشابهة -حرب السفن لعبة فلاشية - -
لعبة الاعداء - -لعبة الجمباز - -لعبة كرة السله بالشارع -
لعبة ميك اب فلة make up fulla - -لعبة تلبيس بنات - -
لعبة تحدي ودم للرركب اعرف عدوك من حبيبك -
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المنتدى العام مواضيع ساخنة ومثيرة ترجمة
ازياء موضة فساتين
مكياج ميك اب اكسسوارات ديكور غرف نوم
اثاث طبخ مطبخ حلويات اكلات معجنات تغذية صحة طب
شعر قصايد خواطر عذب الكلام
قصص روايات طرب رجة مسابقات صرقعة صور بلوتوث و مقاطع فيديو بلوتوث العاب فلاش صور انمي افلام انمي عدسة التصوير
افلام عربية و مسلسلات مسلسلات اجنبية تلفزيونية افلام عربية و افلام اجنبية و مسلسلات تلفزيونية برامج كمبيوتر فوتوشوب ثيمات - العاب الجوال - خلفيات برامج نوكيا - نغمات - برامج جوال رسائل جوال - مسجات - رسايل وسائط - sms مسنجر - برامج ماسنجر - توبيكات دروس التصميم
ملحقات التصميم
بلوتوث
-
برامج نوكيا -كورة -صور -
مسنجر - طرب -
العاب -
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- وسائط
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مواضيع ساخنة -ثيمات
جوال -نغمات -
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العاب جوال -افلام
عربية -ازياء - صور
انمي -
سياحة -مسلسلات اجنبية -
شعر -اناشيد -
توبيكات -رسائل
جوال -تصاميم
شات
شات الرياض

The subject of a very wonderful and distinct
I thank you for continuing excellence
Thank you
ضحك,
ليبيا,
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احاديث نبوية,
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تحميل برامج
free Download
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up ,
العاب لطيفة ,hguhf ,hguhf
fkhj , jgfds fkhj ,jgfds
hghldvhj , l;dh[ hgfkhj ,
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;hvj,k , j,l ,[dvd ,j,l
,[dvd ,hgr' ,hgthv ,;hfjk
lh[] , u]khk ,gdkh ,
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hguhf g'dtm ,لوتوث دلع , بلوتوث
خليجيات , بلوتوث جوال ,
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النسائيه 
عطورات 
منتديات
كويتيه 
مكياج
ملابس
الصيف

شعر|شعر حب |شعر غزلى| شعر نبطى|شعر فصيح|شعراء|شاعرات |قصيد |قصائد |

قصص أسلامية| اناشيد دينيه | مواعض وخطب | سيرة |قرآن | حديث| فقه |علوم اسلامية|

مساحه حره لطرح المواضيع الشامله الهامه الحره

أخر المعلومات العامه وأهم الأكتشافات العلميه والمستقبليه

مقنص 
مقناص

طيور 
مقناص شوازن 
رمي بط  
رمي حمام

صور ومناظر طبيعيه
 

صور أيقونات و ازرار                                                       

الرئيسية

العاب اطفال

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العاب بنات
 

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منتدى الشريعه الاسلاميه 
-
المنتدى العام
النقاشات الجاده
الترحيب والمناسبات والاهدائات
المنتدى التعليمي
اللغه الانجليزيه ، اللغة
الانجليزية
الاقتصاد والمال والاسهم
الاخبار والحوادث والكوارث
السياحه والسفر
التراث الشعبي المحلي والخليجي
شعر و قصائد منقوله من هنا وهناك
قصائد بأقلام شعرا وشاعرات هوى
روحي
نثر و خواطر
الشعر الفصيح
منتدى القصص الواقعيه
روايات وقصص طويله
منتدى عالم حواء
عالم ادم
الطفل و الامومة
الطب والصحة
مطبخ حواء
المسابقات والالعاب ، مسابقات ،
العاب
سيا�