Hillary Booed at NH Democratic Party Dinner

Heck I am for the Republicans but even I am embarassed by that booing stuff. This campaign could go from mildly divisive to a knock down, drag out. Of course at a GOP dinner they'd just shot each other with handguns.

Yes, I think awkward silence would be more devastating than groans, but maybe it's like those Thanksgiving family dinners where people are free to say what they like because they're all relatives...

I think Hillary did a good job; but the huge bounce Iowa got is in the contrast Obama provided. He talked about creating a new coalition and a new majority: that's heady stuff. And when he laid out his definition of hope; that was powerful.

Clinton is apparently trying to label him a flip-flopper for not proposing universal single-payer health care; despite the fact that its an impossible sell. And she's trying to make him out to be the boogeyman of the democratic party.

And its hard to re-define Obama when he's done a good job defining himself.

I think the Clinton's will lose New Hampshire if the debates don't make news against Obama. And there is a palpable feeling that the Clinton camp has an uphill climb. They need to go nuclear on Obama; and the risk of doing so is huge for both Hillary AND Bill.

It's "bellwether," not "bell weather." Ordinarily it wouldn't be a big deal, but aren't words supposed to be your profession? I can't wait to hear from the other new guy, the one with the Eugene O'Neill wannabe picture. There's gotta be a factory out there somewhere, a very scary factory.

is there video of this floating around anywhere?

Well, Jay, my bunion throbs every time Hillary speaks. If that's any bellwether, she won't win here either.

Wow, get me! I'm a reporter for Time!

I wonder if Clinton still thinks it was a good idea not to admit she made a mistake on Iraq, and then to follow it up with another mistake on Iran. The boos couldn't happen to a better war monger, other than McCain and Lieberman.

Lets see....

Obama supporters acted like an unruly mob, rushing the stage and booing one of his opponents.

Hillary supporters listened politely while Obama spoke.

And JNS thinks that this good news for Obama, and bad news for Hillary.
(Of course, if Hillary's supporters had acted like an unruly mob, and booed Obama, JNS would have reported it as bad news for Hillary, and good news for Obama. JNS is rapidly descending on the "crap political blogger" scale from Karen-Tumulty-on-a-bad-day to average-Jay-Carney-bad.)
***************

Since Obama was the last speaker, did he have the decency to tell his supporters that they should not have booed Hillary?

So Obama's people are rude, and Swampland slams Hillary?

Classy!

We're watching Hillary crumble before our very eyes...

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Obama's people are tired of Hillary saying that hope can't change the world. Well, HOPE just left an indelible footprint on her arse. Should they have booed? No, and neither should those plants have booed for Obama at the debate in Vegas where decorum is even more in need. So let's consider this a wash huh and move on.

Jesus.

How disappointing.

Your post, I mean.

You don't even know us, and you have no respect for us, do you?

Wow.

As a style Democrats always resort to personal rancor when they are losing an argument. It is no different amongst themselves or with republicans. Look at any liberal T shirt site, full of swear words, not true on conservative T shirt sites.

However, Obama is hot. America needs to try and break the locks with lobbyists the Clintons created int he first place. Watch how down and dirty this gets..

Obama wins tho..

Hillary and Bill both deserve to be booed for their disgraceful behavior over eight years in the White Houss and in Little Rock before that.

It is perfectly legitimate to bring public opporbirum upon those who betrayed the public trust. Nothing impolite about it.

I was feeling kinda bad for the new bloggers -- the black and while mug shots make it look like they're stuck at the kid's table.

I was feeling bad... but then "omg guess what happened at dinner"

I think Mrs. Clinton will win in NH. The "machine" should work better there than Iowa. Although, this is not the kind of headline she needs with only precious few campaign days left.

I have a post on Clinton/Obama and NH. For anyone is interested...
http://thepoliticalpost.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/hillary-clinton-third-place-in-iowa-what-next/

Well, it looks like "Iowa Nice" is a thing of the past! As a midwesterner, I would chalk this up more to the region of the country than the Obama campaign. A few of those guys were acting like typical Red Sox fans. I only caught the end of it, but some guy told the people there to stcik around because the bar would be open. I wonder if there might have been a little too much drunken celebration among the Obama supporters?

Regardless, It was not a good thing that Hillary was booed, of course. Just like it wasn't cool when her supporters shouted over Edwards and Obama trying to respond to questions at the Las Vegas debate and the Wolf Blitzer said and did nothing.

But I think this does show the danger for Hillary as she thinks about going negative on Obama. It just may backlash on her because a lot of people don't want to see a figure like Obama attacked. It's may not be fair, but life ain't fair

Actually this is not an accurate report. I just returned home from the dinner, and Hillary was not booed. When she asked who was prepared, isolated voices answered "Obama," but at no time did I hear anything that resembled the impression left by this journalist. It seems sloppy and oddly biased reporting for a Time journalist. If anyone really cares to know the truth, just watch the video of the event. There simply was not notable booing for any candidate.

wow...some uniter...if Obama can't even unite democrats at a democratic dinner how in the world is he going to unite everyone else? His speech was all about him...his ego is getting way ahead of him...what a lack of maturity and manners...is this what we can expect from an Obama Presidency...sound likes he is more concerned with making friends with Republicans than he is with having harmony in the Democratic Party...sad...not inspiring...seems like a divider to me

Video at C-SPAN
http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=203272-1&tID=5
Hillary starts at about 1:40:00

Martin:
This is a blog, not a "column." You're a proofreader. A good proofreader is endeavoring to be helpful; not just to be a pompus ass and "call them" on something.

Jay:
Don't mind the trolls, just remember, never feed them more than small biscuits, or they'll form a cocoon and breed.
And thanks for this post, most of the media only will point out bad things regarding Clinton when they're meaningless and mistated. I think it's some kind of guilty groupthink where they feel they only deserve to suck but I'm not a social-psychologist. :P

Neil Kinnock and half a waitress sandwich having left the building, is Mrs. Bimbo Eruption Control far behind?

As a style Democrats always resort to personal rancor when they are losing an argument.

Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Laura Ingram, Michelle Malkin, Neal Boortz, Jonah Goldberg, Glenn Beck, Ramesh Ponuru and Mark Levin are intrigued by your ideas, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Look at any liberal T shirt site, full of swear words, not true on conservative T shirt sites.

"Swear words"? Okay. Personally, I'd rather be called a "swear word" than a traitor, or someone giving aid or comfort to the enemy, because I exercised my first amendment rights. But different people find different things offensive. Unfortunately, we all have the same right to vote.

"Red Socks fans"???? The WORST, the very WORST are the "greatest lineup in baseball but haven't won in a few years" " 22 guys, 22 cabs"
Yankees. Only a sore loser woulld bash the Socks fans. They gave Damon a standing "O" even AFTER he sold out.

"Who" said Hillary "Hsu" they said, caught 3 years, raised do re me for you.
Better practice your dumb as a post deny it look.

Oh, c'mon man. Saying red sox fans are raucus is not an insult. It's kind of cute and endearing.

But, hey, your very vigorous defense of your team kind of proves my original point!

Thanks to the Clintons my then 8 year old daughter asked me what oral sex is. I will never forgive them for that. I'd enjoy a chance to boo her. Problem is I would not cross the street to spit on either one of them.

Rybeam: Thanks to the Clintons my then 8 year old daughter asked me what oral sex is.

Be sure to include Ken Starr, Matt Drudge, and various Congressional Repubs when you say that, mm'kay, Rybeam?

Thanks to the Clintons my then 8 year old daughter asked me what oral sex is.

Because, of course, Ken Starr never wrote a word about it let alone a lurid graphic novella desribing Bill's sins in glorious detail.

Thanks to Larry Craig my son is now afraid to use a public washroom.

Thanks to the Clintons my then 8 year old daughter asked me what oral sex is. I will never forgive them for that.

Rye bread, Bill Clinton tried very hard to keep that story quiet. Ken Starr, Tom Delay, Newt Gingrich, Henry Hyde and David Broder are the reason your little girl was asking questions.

And of course, you, for not changing the channel when she came into the room. Just found that talk a little too interesting, didja?

Thanks to David Vitter my son now thinks all Republicans slip out of their suit and into a diaper when they go home at night.

Funny - here is the article about the same dinner as reported by the NY Times... interestingly no mention about Boos

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/oh-bam-a-fires-it-up/#more-3666

Jimmy, leave my parenting out of this. The story was every where if you remember. Oh, and no I do not find it interesting that a middle aged man was more or less molesting a young women. How dare you try and spin his actions back at me.

The story was every where if you remember.

And whose idea was this? Bill's? Hillary's? Monica's?

a young women. How dare you try and spin his actions back at me

Someone else is teaching your kid syntax and grammar while you take care of sex ed, right?

Jimmy the simple fact "is" he did it. Not me or any of the other people you mention. Why are you defending Bills actions ?

Barack Obama has never, ever been in a relationship with anyone who had inappropriate or morally questionable sexual contact with anyone else.

He's the One.

Now, back to that Clintons vs. Republicans argument...

Jimmy the simple fact "is" he did it. Not me or any of the other people you mention. Why are you defending Bills actions ?

Sweetheart, you brought up your little daughter's loss of innocence, not Monica's. Bill had something to do with one, not the other. Tom Delay and Tim Russert are the people who told your daughter about dirtydirty sex.

Tell me what part you don't get (besides punctuation and the plurals of nouns.... I can help you with those, too).

(the simple fact "is" he did it.Not me or any of the other people you mention.

hmmmm.... actually, Monica did do something wrt the act you specifically cite.... Is all your anger due to the fact that you couldn't answer your kid's initial question? That would explain a few things).

Thanks to GWBush, there are a whole lot of 8 yr old Iraqis as well as many, many others (including nearly 4,000 brave American soldiers) who are dead. I will never forgive him for lying us into this war and occupation.

"Barack Obama has never, ever been in a relationship with anyone who had inappropriate or morally questionable sexual contact with anyone else."

He wants to play kissy face with repukes. Doesn't that count?

Jimmy, I think you are jealous of Monica. Good night, sweet dreams.

Rye Bread: I think your kid is jealous of Chelsea.

"He wants to play kissy face with repukes."

Senator Barack Obama would never court the Republican vote to get elected.

What's wrong with saying that Barack Obama is a liberal?

He is a liberal, isn't he?

Hey Ryetard, I'm pretty sure your 8-year old daughter had a helluva lot to be embarrassed about when she was growing up, but Bill Clinton's private (until the GOP and the media made it public) sex life wasn't one of them.

Jimmy that makes no sense. I make a statement about my feelings towards the Clintons and you turn it into a personnel attack on me. Your insecurities are showing. Go take a wide stance, put your dark dress on and go to bed.

"Senator Barack Obama would never court the Republican vote to get elected."

Getting Democrats and Republicans to sing and dance together is apparently the number one issue in the land. I know it is certainly my biggest desire to make up with pigs like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter.

Jimmy you and that copy cat jbk need to try sticking to the facts of the discussion instead resorting to personnel attacks.

All you Hillary cry babies. CRY ME A F-ING RIVER!!! We dont want G. W Bush dressed as a democratic woman as our president. WE ARE SICK AND TIRED OF BEING ASHAMED OF OUR COUNTRY!!!! All Hillary will accomplish as president is to stir up the republican stronghold and give back republican dominance. I want something new, not old!

And lets be honest all you old and young women who identify with H. Clinton are just voting for he because she's a woman!!

Jim/Foolish

Listen to yourself--you sound like a petulant third-grader. Do you not realize that you rent your general rationale?

Are you a typical Clintonista?

Hillary WAS NOT BOOED. I've watched the speech several times, particularly at where the booing was said to occur. There simply was no booing. Some people were chanting Obama, but otherwise there was mostly applause.

"Thanks to GWBush, there are a whole lot of 8 yr old Iraqis as well as many, many others (including nearly 4,000 brave American soldiers) who are dead. I will never forgive him for lying us into this war and occupation."

UH, OH! Do we really want to go here? Do you think it's at all possible that Bill's failed foreign policy could have put us in a position that allowed GW to get America into this mess? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Bush fan, but do we really want 8 more years of the Clinton show? I for one am ready to try something, anything new. Hopefully that person will be able to unite us as Americans and not divide us as partisans.

"Bell weather" is just the beginning. "Will handily win" makes one hope that one day Jay will well write.

I doubt that "an announcer" (sic) said “please take their seats for safety concerns.” "The audience, particularly FROM Obama supporters" is a most interesting construction, borderline incomprehensible, but nonetheless interesting. The second sentence of the second paragraph is clumsy and wordy -- and closing the quotation after the period would have been ever so thoughtful.

I'll "pass" on the other punctuation errors. Sorry Ruby, when one writes for a living, one has an obligation to conform to the rules of grammar, usage and punctuation. Failing to use them is discourteous (albeit humorous) to the reader. We are none of us perfect and letting some errors pass is appropriate, but Jay's article is chock-a-block with careless or ignorent errors.

That said, I have watched the video and it sure sounded to me like Hillary was the recipient of a pretty fair amount of booing. So Jay did get the facts right -- not an insignificant achievement amongst media types these days.

I thought this blog was so we could discuss the future course of are party. Instead I see nothing but the same personal attacks that have plagued politics for the past twenty years. Is it to much to ask for some rational debate?

"Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Bush fan, but do we really want 8 more years of the Clinton show? I for one am ready to try something, anything new. Hopefully that person will be able to unite us as Americans and not divide us as partisans."

Hear, hear, my friend. Your friends across The Pond would most welcome your sentiment.

No more Bushes. No more Clintons.

"...sound likes he is more concerned with making friends with Republicans than he is with having harmony in the Democratic Party...sad...not inspiring..."

Ah, but that is what makes Obama so great! The world is bigger than your little party. I'm tired of the "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" politics. I'm not going to fight your civil war either. I want this country to unite and change the world and the US for the better. Get this through your head..Your divisive "us and them" crap is coming to an end and there will be nothing you can do to keep up the bitter, petty politics that is tearing the US apart. Your time is over.

Thank you. Well said.

Jimmy you and that copy cat jbk need to try sticking to the facts of the discussion instead resorting to personnel attacks.
Posted by Rybeam

My dear Rye Bread, I have never attacked your personnel. I have no idea what sort of people you employ. How and why would I attack them?

Catalysis

"Your time is over."

In four small/large words, so well and succintly said.

Jim/Foolish
Listen to yourself--you sound like a petulant third-grader. Do you not realize that you rent your general rationale?

Mon cher Parisien,

Tu n'as pas compris. Je ne suis pas du tout Clintoniste, mais mon nouveau copain Pain de Siègle a dit que les petites pipes de Clinton étaient plus importantes que la guerre et les autres catastrophes de Bush.... je ne pouvais pas laisser passer une telle conasserie. Je m'amusais un peu avec un con. C'est permis dans le blogosphère, du moins à ce côté de l'étang.

Et à qui est-ce que j'ai loué mon "rationale générale"?

I am amazed that adults actually believe a politician when they say they are going to "change" things. How old are we today people? 10? 11?

It is really nice to dream about utopia but that is all it will ever be- a dream- and Obama or Hillary or John or Rudy or whoever ain't going to make it appear on their turn in the White House.

Grow up and make adult, rational decisions for once and quit acting like a bunch of 1960's flower children.

I think Obama is really sleezy, because he lets his campaign staff do all kinds of dirty tricks (attack videos and booing like this) and he just smiles and never gets his hands dirty. Yet he never asks his followers to stop. The guys very cultish.

His win in Iowa says more about the people of Iowa than about him.

Everyone should go back and read Sara's post at 11:44pm. As a retired local politician, many times I'd read the paper the next day after a meeting and wondered if I was at the same meeting the reporter was at. Same old journalistic crap. How's the old addage go---"don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see." This is a good lesson on how filled full of BS the public is by the media and how we are victims of them. Tens of Millions of people will think Hillary was booed tonight and will never know the truth. Only those who were there and perhaps us posters on this Blog will know better. Sad!
Next time you read any article in a news magazine or your paper just think of it as 25% wrong and try to figure out which 25% it is.
Then take it for what it's worth. Thank God for the Blogs and the internet that we now have a way around the media!

"Hear, hear, my friend. Your friends across The Pond would most welcome your sentiment.
No more Bushes. No more Clintons."

Thanks a ton. Our friends in France asked for a change in leadership this year and that's what it looks like they got.

As much as I realise that I am just a very tiny voice in a very large room, together we can make a difference, even if it is only a small one. What has really gone wrong is there has not been a great uniter in our country for decades. The easiest way for polititicians in our country to gain power was to divide us and then get elected by the group with the largest voice. Oddly enough this is also a very common military tactic. The only way a small force can defeat a large force is to divide it, confuse it and then attack. In politics they divide us focus on issues that really aren't that important, but will stir emotions then pit us against one another.

As I have said before I stradle the fence in my political views. I am a huge fan of this abolish the IRS as we know it thing and have a flat federal sales tax. Think about it. The only people who would not benefit from this would be a special interest group.

For the other side of the fence, I am not a believer in socialized medicine, but I am a believer in Health Care Reform. Do you really want the government to write the rules for govt sponsored health care? But it really could be reformed. Is there really a reason anyone should not be able to get proper medical care?

Together as Americans these changes could come about, but divided as partisans non of it ever will get done.

When traveling abroad I actually hear less about "Stupid Americans" than I did 10 years ago. I find internationally people actually seem to accept American people more now than they did when I first was old enough to experience the world. I think that if we were to vote for Hiliary and say change in the same sentance we would be hearing the "Stupid American" comments again. We as America (no matter how we individually voted) voted for GW because we wanted change. Is it smart to vote for what we origionally voted adainst?

I am only 33, I do not believe in Utopia. I am not a Hippie / Flower Child, but the only rational decision I can see starts with a change and a fresh face. A change does not include the first family of spin, a left wing Democrat, nor a far right republican. I want to vote for an American to lead America

Reminds me of an old song:

No more Clintons,
No more Bush,
No more Hillary's dirty looks

Hill's out in Iowa!
Hill's out foreva!
Hill's been blown to pieces!

Generally I'm for civility, but the MSM has been giving Hillary passes on everything from four different answers to illegals getting drivers' licenses to Norman Hsu to Chinatown-Gate to as far back as TravelGate and the cattle futures scandal. If it were a Republican doing all that they'd be cole slaw by now, but NOOOOO! With Hillary it's "fuggeddaboutit."

The MSM are acting just like Members of Court covering up the indiscretions of the Royal family. To hear them gush constantly about this warmongering Socialist tyrant in polyester slacks makes me want to puke. Glad she's hearing it loud and clear from the electorate now, especially since she was so determined NOT to in Iowa.

Oh, NOW she'll take questions! Too late, Sole Sista. The Bruthah just rode your booty. Get used to it, ha ha ha!

Lets RECAP what Obama stands for. This is written expressly for those that seem to have a lapse in memory.
OBAMA stands for:

RETREAT or WITHDRAWAL on the battlefield in IRAQ in the face of victory there. This is dangerous policy from a liberal who has it wrong as to the breadth and scope of dangerous forces affecting world events.

Obama stands for:

ABORTION - Shedding of innocent blood which will bring the JUDGEMENT OF ALMIGHTY GOD against whoever does this and does not repent.

Obama stands for :

HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE, Again will be JUDGED of God because God doesnt marry up or couple abominations, he judges it for those that will not repent.

I dont know about you but that pretty well caps it for me as far as this so called leader goes.

As a straight, married christian male I have always wondered how homosexual marriage would directly impact me? I guess I have always thought that god would sort out people out on their way into heaven while here on earth people should be allowed to live as their own morals dictate. What makes me or anyone else so much better that we should be able to tell homosexuals that they are denied basic rights provided to other monogamous couples? Why is this different from any other form of discrimination? I am not arguing with your position nocommentta, I just wonder why a homosexual marriage would have any direct impact on how we live our lives. The only justification I see for a ban on this is a religious one and last time I checked in America there was a seperation of church and state. Once again, I do not see why a ban on homosexual marriage is not discrimination, no matter how I morally feel about homosexuality.

Risk that black Americans will start to believe in Obama before Hillary can pull off her own surge. Then, what? Hillary snuffs Obama. How does black America feel about that? Is it even worth it if you're a D. I'm glad I'm not, by the way.

I think the most significant aspect of this story is that someone who works for Time doesn't know it's BELLWETHER.

Dear NoCommentta, You're really Mike Huckabee, aren't you? Come on, fess up. You're a Christian, you have to, ha ha ha!

Oh by the way, God has been known to Judge nations for the sins of one leader.
King David for one who lost his first born because of his sin.

or how about Solomon who worshipped an idol
of a wife of his, and lost his ability to think wisely like he had done before.
or how about in Joshua chapter 7 an example of another. Where God judged ALL of ISRAEL over the sins of one household. They lost a great battle because of one's secret hoarding of a sinful thing. In chapter 8, after cleansing theirselves of this household, they went on to victory over their enemies.

Do you want a leader leading you to sin and judgement over a sinful issue that a so called leader wants to rule over you with? hmmm I know I dont. Can you stop it? YES YOU CAN! Dont vote for a leader that does those things.

Last time I checked panic1013, separation of church and state doesnt exist in the constitution. there is a stipulation that congress shall make no laws to abridge the
free exercise of one's religion which is stated in the constitution. The church and state issue is made up by liberal courts to rule over you by fiat (there is no lawful separation written by congress because it is banned by the constitution to do so.

Posted by NOCOMMENTTA | January 5, 2008 3:50 AM:

"Dont vote for a leader that does those things."

Hey--if you had to choose between a presidential candidate who you knew for sure was a Christian, and somebody who you suspected might be a Muslim, which one would you vote for?

Just curious...

Last time I checked panic1013, separation of church and state doesnt exist in the constitution. there is a stipulation that congress shall make no laws to abridge the
free exercise of one's religion which is stated in the constitution. The church and state issue is made up by liberal courts to rule over you by fiat - (there is no lawful separation written by congress because it is banned by the constitution to do so.)

Dear NoCommentta, I know the Bible too. My Dad was a Baptist deacon. I used to have to go to church three times a week. You know, the same way you force your kids. I know, yours REALLY want to go!

I haven't been back in 30 years, which I guess puts me on your's and God's Destination Hell list, which is pretty much the same as "worship or die." How is that different from bin Laden's theology?

I dunno, I think my favorite bible story is when God nuked Sodom and Gomorrah. It wasn't because he torched a bunch of fags, it was because Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt for looking back. That was classic! Lot was probably licking her more than he ever did in his life after that, ha ha ha!

BTW what's the whole Book of Job thing about? Letting Lucifer trash the crap out of your favorite guy to test his devotion? Isn't that like a husband beating his wife to test hers?

Also, I never quite got the whole thing about how God let Lucifer talk him into it in the first place. Didn't God himself say "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God"? Yet God let Lucifer tempt him, and he fell for it. What does that say? "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Ya, I know, I'm a BLASPHEMER! Say hello to the First Amendment. If you don't like it, you can go to heaven in a handbasket, ha ha ha!

Sooner would be better. Anyway, anytime you want to talk theology, I'm right here for you, Big Guy.

No TheMadKing, I dont force anybody to do what they dont want to do. It is sad you turned out like you did and you entitled to your opinion. That said, what I commented on was about leaders (not you). so the insults are probably for your dad's way of doing things. its not about me.

y'all, how bout a little help with timestamps on when these boos supposedly happen. do i really care that you watched the videos? no. do i want to hear it for myself? yes. so post the times. c'mon. pathetic.

ok, i watched the video and did all the work that the rest of you were too lazy to do.

1.53.00 - hillary leads into the Obama attack
1.53.15 - loud cheers
1.53.30 - loud cheers
1.53.50 - who can go to the white house?
- audible disapproval heard from some
part of audience, presumably Obama
crowd - no boos.

i guess Time wants to start the Al Gore Invented the Internet lie of this round.

I'm a NY'er, so I react with amusement when Hillary's operatives, and by extension her acolytes in the main stream media, tout her "experience". She's been my senator for 8+ years, and noone I ask, noone, can give me a straight answer when asked what she has accomplished. The truth is, aside from her self promotion, she does not have a distinguished record of accomplishment at all.....and her major campaign theme, universal health care, has failed in every country where it was implemented.

There were audible boos right after Hillary said "There are some who demand change and some who hope for change..." at around 1:44.

panic1013 and NOCOMMENTTA:
While I agree that opposition to homosexual marriage is mainly religious and ultimately discriminatory, you're missing the real point. Legal marriage is a civil contract between 2 people; there is not necessarily any connection to any religion. Many people are married in ceremonies, by a justice of the peace, for example, that don't involve any religious component. You may object to this because of your religious beliefs and consider these marriages to be invalid in the eyes of your God, but this has no legal bearing. On the other hand, when marriage is regarded as a religious contract the government should have no influence; you wouldn't want the government interfering in your ability to practice your religion, would you? In short there are 2 kinds of marriage, civil and religious, and one (or rather, two) can have either or both, but the government is only involved in the first kind.

Beckerman88:
As a misplaced NY'er also represented by Clinton, I, too, cannot name one of her accomplishments. Then again, I'd be hard pressed to cite the accomplishments of any Senator. But I must take excemption to your characterization of countries with universal health coverage, since I am currently living in such a country now and while there are some negatives to this sytem it is far from being a failure. As far as I am aware, the same could be said for at least most of the other countries where this has been tried as well. How many countries with universal health care have abandoned it?

Anselm:
You wrote: "I am amazed that adults actually believe a politician when they say they are going to "change" things."
Well, I am amazed that somebody could sit through the last seven years of BU$H's strong leadership (and I use the term advisedly, with reference to the strong leadership of rogues such as Gen. Pinochet, Mussolini and the Saudi royal family) and fail to understand that politicians can indeed change things profoundly.

Malcolm, thanks for your comment, perhaps I need to define my terms a little better. In my opinion, culturally in the US, universal health care would not work. Such a system would require heavy govt involvement and delays in care, as well as delays in getting appointments and surgeries, which, culturally, the American public simply will not stand for that. Add on to that high taxes, which would depress the economy and cost jobs. Furthermore, the US is flooded with foreign citizens seeking care when access to care is delayed or denied in countries with universal care, i.e. Canadians mostly. Americans will not pay the cost of high taxes and substantially reduced services that will come from universal care.

Posted by stuart_zechman | January 5, 2008 4:01 AM

"Hey--if you had to choose between a presidential candidate who you knew for sure was a Christian, and somebody who you suspected might be a Muslim, which one would you vote for?"

If this is all I had to go on I'd be indifferent. Even if I share the same religious views as a candidate, that would not be high on my list of qualifications for Pres. If you are implying that the candidate I suspect was a Muslim was lying about his or her religion, that would reflect negatively on his or her character, but this would depend on what s/he said about his or her religion and on what grounds I had for suspecting deception as well as the candidates motivation for keeping it a secret.

If on the other hand I knew one was Christian because s/he kept reminding the voters at every opportunity while I had to guess the religion of the other because s/he never talked about it, ceteris paribus I'd prefer the latter.

Panic1013, I could not care less what the people of France want in a President of the United States. The voters of the USA will make that decision in November 2008.

Beckerman88:
Foreign citizens who go to the US for care do so for cutting-edge, high-end treatments. For routine medical procedures they most probably would prefer to get treated in their home countries where it is much cheaper. (Certainly, that's how it is where I live.) While I cannot speak for Canada, I must say that here the waits for treatment are much shorter than in the US (just try going to an emergency room in the NY with any problem less serious than a gun-shot wound), and there's no issue with getting approval for treatment since almost everything (except cosmetic surgery) is automatically covered. Now probably some of the reason for the higher healthcare costs in the US (the real problem, IMO) is for these cutting-edge, high-end treatments, but this doesn't explain the discrepancies by a long shot since even rountine procedures are much cheaper overseas (not factoring in insurance coverage).

it's BELLWETHER
not "bell weather."
who is your copy editor?

It's morning now. Is it safe to come out? Or am I going to continue to hear how God is going to smite the nation for allowing two people who love each other to openly declare that love?

I can't help but notice that this has been one of the most active and interesting threads in quite awhile. I guess, saying something potentially negative about Hillary brings out lots of pent-up feelings. Is this what they mean when they say she is polarizing?

Becuase last time I checked, her actual political views were straight down the middle of the road.

I am an Obama supporter and was seated in the Obama section. zbob nailed it - when she went into her riff on needing more than hope for change, there was significant booing.

I wasn't particularly happy to hear it for practical reasons, viz. the whining in this forum, but not a big deal unless you're desperate to make it one, and it was pretty pale compared to what went down at the Nevada event. Let's move on.

Overall, the Obama supporters seemed to be in the great majority and were highly energized. The Clinton people looked quite deflated. And before joeksuck and other true believers get their knickers in a twist about an "unruly mob" of Obama supporters "rushing the stage", give me a break - this is a political event, both camps were trying to communicate enthusiasm and support, and when Clinton spoke first, her smaller band of supporters pushed into the mosh pit. The far larger number of Obama supporters simply crowded in to replace them. Some of the Clinton tables were front and center, next to the mosh pit, and the folks sitting there looked about as happy as a NYRB crowd at a NASCAR event.

If energy means anything, HRC is in a world of hurt. Tonight could be huge.

It appears Obama supporters need a bit of manners...not surprising as he is a hypocrite. He attacks Clinton and Edwards and then says to the Press who actually report it as such that HE is the one being attacked.

The man has no platform and is using his orator skills and minority to try and get elected.

Would the real journalist please step forward and be fair? Stop being so tabloid and remember what fair and balanced really use to mean.

Just like after 9/11 and you didn't want to be called unpatriotic you now don't touch Obama or treat him like the other candidates for fear of being labeled racist. Give us the frigging facts. You already had good people like Biden and Dodd drop out because you refused to cover them. You want to CREATE history not report on it.

Why should we be embarrassed by the booing when it was Obama fans doing it? That is no reflection on Republicans.

Dear S,

GREAT points:

"wow...some uniter...if Obama can't even unite democrats at a democratic dinner how in the world is he going to unite everyone else? His speech was all about him...his ego is getting way ahead of him...what a lack of maturity and manners...is this what we can expect from an Obama Presidency...sound likes he is more concerned with making friends with Republicans than he is with having harmony in the Democratic Party...sad...not inspiring...seems like a divider to me"

First, Let's all have a group (socialist) hug. Next, let's all have a sip of kool-aid. Then, let's all ask ourselves...do either Hillary or Obama have any knowledge of running anything...a company?...a state?....a country? Why are you taking these people seriously? Because one is a woman and the other a black? Okay, they're both senators. But, what have they accomplished? Not too much, in my opinion. Get past your "milestone" goals of a woman or a black in the white house and come to your senses. If you can't do that, do me a favor and go back to the cooler and chug the kook-aid from the tap. You're nuts.

I was cringing before I finished reading the first sentence. Where is Time hiring its writers and editors? The term is "bellwether". It is not "bell weather", at least not for college graduates. Does anyone care about our language anymore?

Hey zoot:

How were the tickets distributed? Was there any consideration to candidate affiliation? It sounds like there were alot more Obama folks there.

Who let the ignorant retard in?

If I remember correctly, the only thing the current president "has run" is this country into the ground, thanks to record deficit spending and stupendously stupid administration policies that reward big business and rich people and takes a dump on everyone else.

Bush Jr. didn't even want to run for president until karly-boy talked him into it. Before that, the only thing W. was famous for was doing slow bar crawls through the gulf coast states while evading the draft.

That's some fine leadership experience, right there.

It's time for someone who actually does want to lead and who doesn't have his lips all over the balls of special interest. pwnt.

Well, I am independent. And currently I am not sure who I will support.

But one thing I was taught and do know is how to exercise some manners.

Evidently these folks have very little character. You would think they would show respect for at least their own party members regardless of who they currentl support.

I hope this is not representative of what the people in this state are like, or the people who are Obama supporters are like.

From the beginning the democrats, desperate to injure Pres. Bush, lined up with the terrorists against the President and our troops. The reason the war has gone badly is that our enemies at home - the democrats - have daily given the islamo-nazis hope. Your doubt it? Review the words of Durbin, Kennedy, McDermott, Kerry, Schumer, Boxer, Nadler, et. al. and ask 'What more could they do to undermine out troops and our nation?' The other democrats are enablers; unindicted co-conspirators. WHEN, not if, the terrorists set off a nuke in the U.S. it will be in an urban area represented by a democrat traitor. I am sad to say that I will feel a certain satisfaction.

"Who let the ignorant retard in, its Busheees fault, Bush is a moron." Many of you fail to realize that President Bush is not on the ballot and he cannot run anymore.
But unfortunately many people just can't get past the 2000 elections. America keeps hearing, Bush has run this country into the ground, for starters President Bush is not a Hugo Chavez type dictator, he cannot do much of anything without Congressional approval or funding. For all the Bush haters out there, you really need to lay at least half the blame on Congress, who has presided over massive pork barrel spending on both sides of the political aisle. Republicans went buck wild with spending and now that the Democrats are in the drivers seat they to went crazy with spending.
President Bush by and large has made political mistakes and miscalculations on the war, but again, who voted to let him start this war? Congress did, Democrats and Republicans voted their stamp of approval to let the President send troops into harms way. These are the facts as they have happened people, its not political spin nor am I a Republican or Democrat. Unfortunately my guy, the only Presidential candidate pushing for smaller government is Ron Paul and it will be a cold day in New Hampshire if he was selected to face off with whomever wins the Democratic nomination.
This sophomoric bickering that the Republican and Democratic Parties have us doing needs to stop and we as a nation need to put both parties feet to th fire and respond the real but solvable problems that this country faces.

glwinslc-

You are wrong on the war on Iraq.

I doubt you have spent a day there, looking those people or one of the 4,000 soldiers that died in the face. I have, with one of those soldiers being one of mine.

Having spent 13 months in Iraq fighting there, and the last 3 years studying counterinsurency, you - like most - have very little idea about what is going on over there.

It's like when "haters" talk about President Bush. You say "oh, he's dumb" When you talk about the war, you say, "oh its wrong"

Really, why? Why is it wrong? Let me guess, you are going to talk about the WMD the CIA and everyone else in the Clinton-built intelligence agencies thought were there.

You talk so eloquently about little Iraqi girls, what about the ones Uday had locked up that he used as sex slaves? What about the ones that are murdered by their own families for not wearing the right head scarf?

You know why people hate the Red Sox? The same reason that they hate the Patriots, and the same reason they hate the Republicans - because they are good at what they do and they are WINNERS.

Tanks to the Front.

It must be stressful for the New Hampshire Democrat voters in deciding who's Socialist ideas will deteriorate democracy the fastest.

Whatz Up?

Bill C says there will be only ONE President in the office, Hillary. Will the press and the world STOP referring to Bill as Mr. President if HRC is elected?

Gee, this could be confusing in the press and the world...Seems to me we should be calling him the First Man. How will his ego take that?

"Review the words of Durbin, Kennedy, McDermott, Kerry, Schumer, Boxer, Nadler, et. al. and ask 'What more could they do to undermine out troops and our nation?'"

Our nation was undermined by the traitorous Republicans, and the centrist Democrats, who used the legitimate war on terror as cover to illegally attack a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11. Not only did they declare war on an innocent nation, they declared war on the US treasury. As a result of their lies they ruined the coalition that had formed to fight the real war on terror, increased the danger of terror, and turned us into a pariah nation on the world stage, less admired than the communist Chinese.

Although misspelled, (bellwether vice bell weather) it is quite appropriate when referring to Obama. A 'wether' is a castrated ram around which neck is placed a bell. This 'belled whether' is then used to lead a flock of sheep.
Actually the term applies to all of the Democrat candidates and a couple of the Republicans IMHO.

geez, where did all the wingnuts, Obamaniacs, and grammer-trolls come from so suddenly? Who linked to Swampland --- and can we make them stop?

There are many people with differing preferences for president on both sides of the aisle. However I am struck at the seemingingly very high percentage of people that agree on "anyone but Hillary". I believe these ABH's will sink the Clinton run very soon and the two final contestants will be shown and the real run for the Presidentcy will begin.

yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon, joe.

I'd say the sockpuppets are all out in force.

Did you see today's NYT? Clinton has a tough row to hoe; the narrative is strongly Obama, fresh and new.

And, of course, poor Edwards might as well have come in a distant 4th. That's working for McCain.

Looks like we as a nation have lept beyond the day where politicians speak to a sterile audience without questions or feedback.
I have no pity for this woman who participated in the most scandelous white house in our nations history not to mention pilfering the white house during their exit.
The Clinton legacy is stuffed down Sandy "burglars" shorts.

Thank God for blog commenters. How that garish and rude display from Obama supporters could be interpreted as good for Obama is unbelievable.

And to those supporters I want to ask: What specifically is the reason you support him?

exactly.

I wonder how Obama will act when he reaches maturity. Thats what we need...a rock and roller running the country. His followers are all teenagers. Im a republican and back the adults.

I hope this is not representative of what the people in this state are like, or the people who are Obama supporters are like.

Posted by madcat | January 5, 2008 9:14 AM

I wouldn't say "representative," but there are a lot of these people in the Obama camp who aren't there because they support Obama, per se, but rather because they somehow think he's the best way of sticking it to the Democratic "establishment," which Hillary represents to them. If you watched the 2004 primary, many of these people were rabid Dean supporters, and viciously attacked anyone and everyone who wasn't a Dean supporter, and particularly the candidates they saw as standing between Dean and the nomination. It's been much, much milder this cycle, I think partly because the Dems control Congress and stand a good chance in this election (think Kissinger's saying about politics and low stakes), and partly because these people have had four years to grow up some (but they obviously have a ways to go). Their presence in Obama's camp is one of the minor things that pushed me away from his candidacy, along with the rather plain fact that the Republicans want him as the nominee, and that Obama, the "candidate of change," has actually adopted the mildest policy positions of any of the major candidates, and that includes the Republicans. Just looking at their policy positions, you'd think it was Obama who was the "establishment" candidate.

Anyway, these people aren't representative of much of anything besides extreme partisanship of the "anti" kind (against Clinton and the "establishment" Dems). They are in both parties; their Republican counterparts are the kind of people who sneer "Democrat Party" and so on, although it is interesting that both groups of people, nominally on opposite sides, vent their rage at the same targets.

"I wonder how Obama will act when he reaches maturity. Thats what we need...a rock and roller running the country. "

After all look at how well the grownups have done the last 7 years.

You think W is a grown up? Sanity check Derek.

"You think W is a grown up? Sanity check Derek."

I think he is a grownup war criminal who has received a free ride through life, which is now now being subsidized by the weak and pathetic Democrats in Congress, instead of his Daddy.

I must be blunt: The Republicans will put on quite a show in a attempt to keep Hillary from the Oval Office. But THE REPUBLICANS WILL EMPTY THE COFFERS TO ENSURE THAT A BLACK MAN DOES NOT WIN THE PRESIDENCY. NO HOLDS BARRED. Unfortunately we must bow to politics and regardless of our first personal choice, we must look at the big picture for our Democratic Party and select the only candidate that has a chance against the Republican machine. Now, reread the ALL CAPS sentence above 5 times aloud.

A holiday weekend video treat: How cable music channel VH1 turned booing of Senator Hillary Clinton into cheering.

http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2002/cyb20020830.asp#3

Lest the good citizens of America forget. This situation is utterly astonishing.

Many of you (Hillary supporters, no doubt) seem to be forgetting how Hillary had Obama booed at that debate in... I think it was Vegas, after he and Edwards took some very mild shots at her. There's no question in my mind this was an intentional defensive tactic used by her supporters after her poor performance in the philly debate.

I wouldn't be surprised if her people are planning the same classless method for tonight's debate, though this time hopefully Obama's supporters will respond in kind. Hillary sounds like a broken record at this point, repeating the same old empty phrases. It's no wonder folks are getting sick of it.

And to those supporters I want to ask: What specifically is the reason you support him?

I was exchanging IMs with a supporter yesterday. He sees Obama as a new voice, someone who is committed both to progressive principles and effective application of those principles by working the political process.

He really does see Obama as a unifying force, someone who can tamp down the worst of the fear and the hatred the Republicans have created to bring the country together again.

This guy is in his late 20s,is politically active and says this is the first presidential candidate he really wholeheartedly supports.

I know you really didn't want an answer to your question, but this guy is pretty typical, IMO.

Incredible... This is a TIME CNN website and some dumb journalist wrote "bell weather"!

In Shakespeare's "The Merchant of Venice" (no longer on most high school English course reading lists) in the dramatic court scene, Antonio offers to die for Bassanio (ACT IV, Scene 1):

ANTONIO

"I am a tainted wether of the flock,
Meetest for death: the weakest kind of fruit
Drops earliest to the ground; and so let me."

The wether was the old castrated male sheep who was the wise and wary leader of the flock. He wore a bell around his neck so that, in a fog or bad storm, the rest of the sheep could listen to the ringing of his bell and follow him to safety instead of running over a cliff or falling into a ravine.

A "bellwether" is a leader, a harbinger of the future, in modern English. It isn't "weather"; it is "wether". Educate these young writers, please! :-)

Sorry, I don't care one way or the other about Hillary and the boos or cheers, but I do love Shakespeare and the English language.

{Hint: I am a Ron Paul supporter.}

And here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/553026/posts

Apparently Mr. and Mrs. Clinton have altered "the truth in booing."

This is an absolutely blatant attempt to control public opinion; to turn it completely on its head.

"OBAMA PORTRAIT MUSIC VIDEO" on Youtube - Don't Miss It!

For those of you who still have not heard:

There is a WONDERFUL and INSPIRING music video on Youtube.com entitled "Obama Portrait Music Video by Bjarne O."
You can use the free downloaded high-quality stereo version from the composer's website in DVD form to show at house parties. Even people who knew nothing at all about Obama have been moved: either a thrilling introduction, or further inspiration for those of us who already know and fight for Obama.
The music soundtrack, which incorporates excerpts from the famous 2004 speech, can also be downloaded separately in high-quality.

It is an uplifting and informative campaign tool - so please, SPREAD THE WORD!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mCPwbozpIzM

Together for Obama,
Anne

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/2/3941/69870

Martin Gale:

but there are a lot of these people in the Obama camp who aren't there because they support Obama, per se, but rather because they somehow think he's the best way of sticking it to the Democratic "establishment," which Hillary represents to them. If you watched the 2004 primary, many of these people were rabid Dean supporters, and viciously attacked anyone and everyone who wasn't a Dean supporter, and particularly the candidates they saw as standing between Dean and the nomination.

Those people are mostly Edwards supporters, who share your view that Obama is too conciliatory to the Beltway establishment. While a DK straw poll is not conclusive, I think it's a strong indication.

From the Iowa results, I would say, rather, that Obama's appeal is to newcomers and dissaffected non-participants, especially young people.

For me, the big story in Iowa was not the order of finish, but the turnout. People are really, really unhappy with the way things are going now, sent a clear message in 2006 (at least as clear as 1994) and got nothing back for it.

This desire to see things done differently does play better with new fresh voices like Obama's and Huckabee's and not so well with "experienced" politicians who seem to be seen as complicit.

...and as such, it is completely within the realm to offer that the Clintons have altered history as well in this instance. It is in their library of "power tools."

It's important that Americans realize how perceptions of possible machinations are viewed in the world theatre.

There is a powerful theory that the Clintons will do anything...anything...to prevent Mr. Obama from gaining the presidency.

At base of truth an Obama presidency would signal to history the first real black president, which would negate Mr. Clinton's claim to status. Mr. Clinton will just not allow the erasure of this most (self) important aspect of his legacy.

The Clintons simply cannot allow the scenario...by any and all means necessary.

One last point that I wish to share, and then I'll sign off:

In simple terms, the vibe abroad, given the sometimes tedious near-historical relationship between Europe and the (right or wrong) typical, stereotypical American tourist, the Clintons represent The Ugly American Hillbilly, and conversely, Mr. Obama (or most other than the Clintons,) represents freshness, humility, comportmment, open-mindedness, and enlightenment.

He is not pushy, abrasive, or ignorant.

Please, no eight years more of the Ugly American.

Have a good day, all. Signing off now....

Read this about Obama!!

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/01/barack-obama-backs-taliban-supporter-in.html

I support Obama because I typed "usa today candidate quiz" into Google and took the quiz. All I ask is that everyone do their homework. Don't just do it with this election, but with your local elections as well.

It has been suggested more than once that Obama's money and support is coming from the Republicans because they know they can go after his non-records and inexperience and win.

I can read bellwether or bellweather and it still reads ok, I can understand what is meant.
On the other hand the critics are so lame they make me retch. On and on and on about how ignorant someone is because of an innocent error. Gee I wish being anal was a terminal disease then we would be done with most of you.

"It has been suggested more than once that Obama's money and support is coming from the Republicans because they know they can go after his non-records and inexperience and win."

Posted by pammy61dev | January 5, 2008 12:38 PM

I'm sorry but something seems very wrong/odd about this comment. Are Oprah and her multitude of followers rich republicans?

Ms. Hillary, is that you? Heaven help us.

pammy61dev ... I am an independent and I donate to Obama's campaign. However, I can't donate much and have only given a total of $75 over the past six months. But, if Republicans are giving money to Obama's campaign, I want to ask, did they send all those Iowa caucus participants to support him too?

pammy61 said "It has been suggested more than once that Obama's money and support is coming from the Republicans because they know they can go after his non-records and inexperience and win."

Pammy, you MUST be a Hillary supporter. This is exactly like what her campaign said after Jean Shaheen's husband here in NH started talking about Obama's drug use and hinting that he might have been a dealer as well. "The vast right-wing conspiracy is going to use this against him."

Too late. His fellow Democrats in the Hillary camp already did. It's just like the Mike Dukakis/Willie Horton commercials. It was Al Gore who used that against him first during the 1988 primaries.

If there is a vast right-wing conspiracy, it can't hold a candle to the vast left-wing conspiracy the Clintons have going, which includes the MSM, George Soros, Media Matters, or the Clintons' secret police-like army of private detectives. When was the last time any paper of record like the NY Times followed up on any of Hillary's indiscretions, like with Norman Hsu and ChinatownGate, or even TravelGate?

I thought journalists lived to do that kind of investigative reporting. I guess it depends on who it is. If that were a Republican doing all that they'd be screaming for grand juries, indictments and impeachment, but with Hillary it's "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." Page B-23, no follow-ups and fuggeddaboutit. Never happened.

It's at least comforting to know that with the MSM and all the other Clintonista shills pumping her and Bill up in Iowa that she still lost big time. Hoorah!

Maybe it's as simple as this: people actually like Obama and can't stand Hillary. At least he's not going through her kindergarten records looking for smear material. And maybe that's the key difference between them.

OBAMA 2008!

Hillary, your (desperation) slip is showing. Is this a taste of your SOP?

You are absolutely unelectable with such soaring negatives, which most realistically believe are objections that simply cannot be overcome no matter what.

Ms. Hillary, should you get the nod, Americans then in the general are left with the inevitable WIN for yet another backwards, close-minded, over-animated, seal-clapping, McDonald's "super-size-me", Arkansan--the state which is consistently at the BOTTOM of any American standards list for performance, image, the educated, and leadership.

Those people are mostly Edwards supporters, who share your view that Obama is too conciliatory to the Beltway establishment. While a DK straw poll is not conclusive, I think it's a strong indication.

Posted by jayackroyd | January 5, 2008 11:25 AM

Been to DFA (formerly "Dean For America" lately? And by the by, I haven't heard to many stories of Edwards supporters booing Hillary. Have you?

...a win for Mr. Huckabee.

TheMadKing - You wrote: "Maybe it's as simple as this: people actually like Obama and can't stand Hillary."

Please tell me that Obama supporters have more going for them than a visceral hatred of the Clintons. Please tell me that Obama supporters are capable of engaging in the nomination process without lowering themselves to the recitation of the worst kind of GOP smears against the Clintons. Please tell me that Obama supporters have more to offer than that.

Look, I am not a Clinton supporter but I have vowed to vote for whoever wins the Democratic nom