Waterboard Memories

How dare you JOke Line?
How dare you!

Once again, like FISA, you smear the Democrats with your neocon driven agenda.

Nancy and the Democrats were told that prisoners would be given water, not waterboarded!

Why do you want the Republicans to win?
How much Halliburton stock do you own?

When will Time fire you?

Outrage upon outrage, thy name is Joke Line.

This helps explain why impeachment is off the table.

"Some of the more extreme elements on the left-wing of the Democratic Party will lapse into their traditional wailing about the Bush-appeasing weakness of their party leaders."

Here is another prediction, members of the Centrist Cult, who have no principles, will seek to demonize those that do, as they scramble for an excuse as to why war criminals are above the law.

"I'm writing this from Iowa and one thing I've heard consistently from people who do not live in Washington--or profit from the partisan debates therein--is that they simply hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate."

So the Dems should just cave then? Because the GOP won't budge. If the GOP won't allow the Dems to legislate a non GOP agenda, then what is the alternative to the Dems caving in?

Why it's screaming, blaming and fingerpointing! Grow up Joe.

What does Pete Hoekstra think about all this.

"It is time to simply and definitively outlaw torture, and move on."

It is already outlawed, idiot. But a Congress and courts that refuse to hold the President accountable aren't enforcing the law. They don't enforce the laws against torture, because pundit fools like you tell them that the public will consider them "weak" on terrorism.

You and TimeWarner helped make this mess, Chutzpah Joe. You relentlessly advocated "toughness." Now that the resulting barbarism has come to light, you sanctimoniously disavow it. Your nimble reversals and evasions are disgusting.

Just go away.

You say:

(By the time Harman was briefed, in 2003, people were thinking more clearly--hence her letter of protest.)

Others have reported that the waterboarding STOPPED in 2003 and was only conducted on three top terrorists who were most likely to be privy to plans for forthcoming attacks.

So Congress had no complaints while it was being conducted...and now is whining about it after it stopped?

1/ "The Washington Post makes a convincing case that Congressional Intelligence Committee leaders, of both parties, were fully briefed on CIA interrogation techniques..."

The Washington Post doesn't make a "convincing case" about Congressional briefings. Rather, the Post reporters have done some actual "journalism" and have reported "facts". Whether or not believes the factual claims made by the Post depends on (i) whether one accepts as credible the claims made by Warrick and Eggen that they have in fact discovered these facts based on "multiple U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge" and (ii) whether one trusts the Post's editors to verify factual claims made by its journalists.

I presumptively accept these factual claims because, absent specific contrary evidence, I have confidence in the Washington Post to get this kind of story right. When they make these types of factual claims, I don't reflexively assume they're making stuff up or that their only actual source is Pete Hoekstra.

It's telling that Joe doesn't appreciate the difference between "making a case" and "reporting." Maybe that's why he doesn't understand why a pattern of passing on demonstrably false factual claims from unreliable "sources" like Pete Hoeskstra has destroyed his credibility -- and Time magazine's.

Simply put, if Joe made the same factual claims that Warren and Eggen made in their piece today, readers would have no reason to accept those claims as true. I hope editors and managers at Time appreciate that (though I doubt that they do).

2/ "Some of the more extreme elements on the left-wing of the Democratic Party will lapse into their traditional wailing about the Bush-appeasing weakness of their party leaders."

This is what Joe Klein is, fundamentally -- the Joe Lieberman of the commentariat. An emotionally fragile, enraged, wounded man who has made himself into a professional liberal liberal-hater. "Even the Liberal" Joe Klein has no judgment, no intellectual curiosity... at his core there is nothing but bile and resentment and a permanent campaign of revenge for a million perceived slights. This guy isn't a journalist or a columnist, he's a clinical case study.

3/ "(By the time Harman was briefed, in 2003, people were thinking more clearly--hence her letter of protest.)"

What does this mean? That Joe has discussed Harman's thinking with her? That Harman's letter was an adequate "clear thinking" response to the briefing? This is typical Joe Klein "reporting" -- he doesn't know what he's taking about. He hasn't thought any of it through or done any research. He doesn't tell his readers what his "sources" are or how he has come to hold particular views that he then presents with total confidence to his readers.

4/ "What the United States stands for now, and in the future, should be far more important than where we stood during the post-9/11 panic. .. It is time to simply and definitively outlaw torture, and move on."

It is time to sign new legislation, disappear the past and *move on*! Try to believe that this man parades around as a journalist!

It is time to sink all of this torture business into the memory hole. It is time to stop asking questions about who knew what when. It is time for journalists to stop performing the basic functions that journalists are supposed to perform.

Just let this sink in. Joe Klein -- who writes cover stories for Time magazine on subjects relating to national security -- reacts to today's incredible Washington Post story by *urging people to move on*! Nothing to see here folks! Nothing to be gained by finding out exactly what's been going on in the aftermath of 9/11!

What has Time magazine become? It is just amazing to me that a prominent news organization would continue to employ Joe Klein as its representative, even as he publicly heaps ridicule on the very idea of journalism in Time magazine, on the Swampland blog and on television.

[T]hey simply hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate.

I'd bet anything a lot of the perception of "screaming and blaming" is due to the fact that so much of what they learn comes through the filter of cable news. The right has been training people to scream and blame for a living for the better part of three decades.

The perception of contention is also due to the fact that the media reports everything as contention, even when it's clear what the facts are--or in some cases it would be clear, if media owners would bother to pay for actual solid reporting.

Of course the right is contending for every inch of credibility it can get, because it is scared as hell, as it should be.

Remember when torture was what we used to justify attacking our enemies? Remember when propaganda was what the Soviets engaged in and not us?

Who'd have seen that thinking that we shouldn't be like the North Vietnamese would label someone an "extremist"?

It's bad enough that we engage in brutality but when defending brutality is considered the "reasonable" position then the whole society is sick.

The degree to which Joe Klein and his cohorts are marginalized is the degree to which we have begun to heal.

"-is that they simply hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing"

You mean like the hate and screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that you constantly engage in? Specifically and constantly against the Democrats? You are an unbelievable hypocrite, and a poor liar as well.

"--is that they simply hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate."

Joe,

The only individuals THAT YOU PAID ANY ATTENTION TO are the ones that framed their objections in that manner. A matter of just a little obfuscation in order to fit your agenda.

There are MANY others out there who point the finger of blame DIRECTLY at "Some Republicans, including many of the presidential candidates, sadly are not".

Keep on fooling yourself...

"There was fear that we would be attacked again by terrorists, and on a regular basis. Few were thinking clearly about the nature of the threat and how to deal with it. (By the time Harman was briefed, in 2003, people were thinking more clearly--hence her letter of protest.)

What the United States stands for now, and in the future, should be far more important than where we stood during the post-9/11 panic. "

I think all the people sitting in a prison cell at the moment ought to use this "War Criminals Get a Pass" argument to get out of jail. "I was under so much pressure after 9/11 I started smoking pot. Yes I know it was against the law but damn it, there is a war on. I want a free pass just like all those white, rich people."

A summary of Joe's post:

"Enabling torture is perfectly all right when it is motivated by fear. Accountability for enabling torture is a preoccupation of ideological extremists."

I wish I was exaggerating, but no.

Joe, can you give a principled definition of centrism? I don't think that you can. You will split the difference between the GOP ("nuke Iran! Torture, torture, torture!") and the Democrats ("Well, maybe we should nuke Iran and torture people"), regardless of how senseless or immoral any of the actual policies are.

Paul Dirks:

Joe has a convenient amnesia. There isn't a blind spot in his field of vision, it's in his brain.

One blind spot is where he stores the memories of Civil Rights. The other is where he stores the memories of all Republican misdeed!

When the Republicans stole the election in 2004, they should have proclaimed:

We have met the enemy, and they are us!

When do the DNC media dregs demand the complete opening of the JFK and Clixon Lieberry archives?

Same month Teddy, Biden, Schumer, and Teehee stop leaking DOD material, perhaps?

Whenever Kerry stop bashing the troops, maybe?

Whenever Wezzley Quark gets back from Pristina Airport, perchance?

Oh well.

CNN Query MeetUps Happen.

Question Hillary:

Are you insinuating that there is a Great Left-Wing Conspiracy and that maybe the NIE should never have become public?

If you don't take your medicine soon, I think, you'll be a feeble, wretched old fool wringing his hands in hatred of all Americans sitting impotently in a darkened bomb shelter while the rest of us clean up the terrible mess created by your heroes!

Like I said b4, Pluto or Venus, take your pick!

Maybe the piece convinces someone like Joe, who by all evidence is not only gullible, but arrogant as well.

I find the sourcing in the piece odd and suspicious:

-said two officials present

-said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange

-according to interviews with multiple U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge

-said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter

-officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support.

-various officials have described the briefings as detailed and graphic

-Several officials familiar with the briefings

-said one U.S. official present during the early briefings

-GOP lawmakers and Bush administration officials

-U.S. officials knowledgeable about the CIA's use of the technique

-a congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position

Washington Post's credibility is questionable at best. Why should we believe that this piece isn't just another Republican smear job, aided and abetted, once again, by the likes of Joe Klein? There isn't a single credible source there, except former Senator Bob Graham.

This is interesting:
Graham said he has no memory of ever being told about waterboarding or other harsh tactics.

Jes' sayin'. No need to jump to premature conclusions. There's a lot more to come, no doubt. Who'll be the first to push back?

I won't echo the others', correct, comments that this vomit is wrongheaded and anti-American. That much is obvious.

But I'll add two points: have you asked the folks in Iowa whether, in their efforts to avoid shrieking and finger-pointing, they've bothered to shut off Fox News? My guess is Joe hasn't asked, and it never occurred to him to do so. (Of course, that's where you'll find the shrieking, and it seems to have an audience even among the "nice" people of Iowa.) This is because of point two, viz:

The shreiking and finger-pointing Joe is really talking about here is really the (fully justified) attacks on HIM. By everyone. Freud called this projection.

If we are now fated to be presented with the world as seen through Joe's wounded ego, we are certain to get an even more distorted version of reality than Joe's served up so far.

"I'm writing this from Iowa and one thing I've heard consistently from people who do not live in Washington--or profit from the partisan debates therein--is that they simply hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate."

I LIVE in Iowa and you are full of CRAP!

Joe:
You do realize this government has committed war crimes? Right? You also do realize the diminished standing we have in the rest of the world as a result, right? I think I understand your comments. You just want everyone to gloss over your support for what has happened. Hey, we all lost our heads for a little while after 9/11, so anything that happened in the two years after is okay. No, it is not okay, Joe. So it would have been acceptable to round up all Americans that believed in Mohammed after 9/11? Get out of the Washington bubble!!!

Joe Klein, Ace Reporter and Ethnographer [with self-important sincerity]: "Don't you hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate?"

Exotic Denizen of Iowa or Indiana or Something [with incredulity]: "Duh-uh. Who wouldn't? But you see, it's also important to rea--"

Klein: "OK, got it, great, thanks!"

Good job!

""Don't you hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate?""

Yes, I also generally support the concept of success.

Now where do we go from there?

In order to stop all the arguing Democrats should just bend to all of Bush's demands? Is that what "all" the people in Iowa are saying, withing really saying it?

If the Republicans were not obstructing the government the government would be more efficient. Obstruction, even though it is on the books, ought to be used rarely. The Republicans are now using it as their daily strategy and then blaming the Democrats for doing nothing.

What I can't believe is the fact that the MSM is stilling accusing bloggers of being inflexible. The Democrats have been so flexible they have now alienated many of their most capable and activist base.

What flexibility has Bush shown since the majority of people elected a Democratic Congress? His idea of flexibility is if the Democrats agree to all of his demands. If they refuse he accuses them of not supporting the troops and then he pouts like a baby whose candy has been taken away.

Why is there almost complete silence on the intransigence and obstructionism of the Republicans in the MSM?

The Republicans are now using it as their daily strategy and then blaming the Democrats for doing nothing.

No chutzpah shortage over there, is there?

""The Republicans are now using it as their daily strategy and then blaming the Democrats for doing nothing."

No chutzpah shortage over there, is there?"

There are 100 analogies that pop out when one considers it, most of which are probably true.

It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and going, nah, nah, nah ,nah, nah nah." How much intelligence does it take to spend all your time trying to prevent the majority from carrying on the business of government? It is undemocratic. It is an insurgency aimed at stopping government. I think their intransigence is an insult to the people, and a waste of precious tax revenue.

Joe Klein:
"Some of the more extreme elements on the left-wing of the Democratic Party will lapse into their traditional wailing about the Bush-appeasing weakness of their party leaders."

Eric:
"This is what Joe Klein is, fundamentally -- the Joe Lieberman of the commentariat. An emotionally fragile, enraged, wounded man who has made himself into a professional liberal liberal-hater. "Even the Liberal" Joe Klein has no judgment, no intellectual curiosity... at his core there is nothing but bile and resentment and a permanent campaign of revenge for a million perceived slights. This guy isn't a journalist or a columnist, he's a clinical case study."

***

Eric is right. Every time you call people such as Glenn Greenwald and Jane Hampshire left-wing extremists, you reveal: 1) your right-wing bias (and delusional thinking) and 2) your paranoia.

Seriously Joe, I saw you on CNN yesterday and I can say with some certainty just from your facial mannerisms: you need a long vacation away from politics and politicians. At the very least, you are going to finish destroying your career. At worst, you're headed for a breakdown.

It has nothing to do with "extremism." From a purely practical, pragmatic political standpoint, those Democrats in the Congressional leadership who were briefed in 2002 and still hold leadership positions in the Congress and be replaced by Democrats who are not so tainted. There is no shortage of capable candidates for the Speakership, nor for Committee chairmanships.

In fact, the net can be cast wider for Speaker than for the chairmanships, as there is nothing in law or in the rules of the House that requires the Speaker to be a member of the House.

Now would be an excellent time for the Democratic leadership to put a Pat Williams or even an Al Gore into the Speakership to lead a wholesale housecleaning of both the Congressional and Administrative branches of government.

Some of the more extreme elements on the left-wing of the Democratic Party will lapse into their traditional wailing about the Bush-appeasing weakness of their party leaders.

When do we get to hear the Joe Klein post about the extent to which you all earned it?

I say never. Just like we'll never hear a full owning up to your spectacularly-botched FISA reporting.

You never get tired of this stupid left-bashing schtick, do you?

As long as you keep attacking us from the right at every opportunity, expect us to return the favor. I would bone up on your reporting skills, because if you hadn't noticed there's a lot of us out here.

And a liberal writing for a major American magazine writes that people opposing torture, a 400 year old bedrock of English legal tradition, are "extreme."

That's really sad.

they simply hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing

With one hand, he decries blame and finger-pointing.

the more extreme elements on the left-wing of the Democratic Party will lapse into their traditional wailing

With the other hand, he points at the wailing extremists and blames them for complaining too loudly about sanctioned torture.

Failing to see the contradiction makes him a "centrist"

And by the way, Joe, here are some of the "extremists" you just triangulated against.

Get a clue.

I mean, Joe, instead of this pussyfooting, why not just go all the way and speak against these legal professionals at the AEI?

It is time to simply and definitively outlaw torture, and move on.

Um. Torture is already illegal. We have already convicted Americans soldiers (in the Philippines) for torture when they have waterboarded prisoners.

Moving on requires prosecution for war crimes. Porter Goss would be a good place to start. If Goss thinks that some sort of information given to Pelosi can establish his innocence, he is free to bring that up in his defense in court.

Why the hell does Joe Kline want to 'move on' from war crimes without any sort of justice? What the hell is to be gained from that?

Because as you told us, Joe, over at the AEI they are very serious people.

The more I read from Joe"I appease anybody" Klein, the more I think we need to create some real, constructive media for intelligent Democrats and Independents to build a real consensus on rule of law, representative democracy, fiscal sanity, and a society that can respect itself and its values. Let's forget Time and the rightwing rags that pretend to be moderate.

The Washington Post makes a convincing case that Congressional Intelligence Committee leaders, of both parties, were fully briefed on CIA interrogation techniques, including waterboarding and stress positions, back in 2002 and 2003. That includes Nancy Pelosi:

okay, first off, lets cut this "convincing case" crap. What we have here is a couple of Washington Post stenographers typing down what some administration types told them, then going out and getting comments from various people.

I particularly like this comment....

Pelosi declined to comment directly on her reaction to the classified briefings. But a congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position on the matter said...

Now, this information was, of course, super-double top secret -- and there are a VERY limited number of "congressional sources" that would have any clue what "Pelosi's position" was.

Indeed, I can think of only one person who fits that description -- Jane Harman, who was probably briefed by Pelosi when Harman took over the role as ranking member of the intelligence committee. Of course, as we know, Harman has a stick up her butt about Pelosi ever since Pelosi threw Harmon off the intelligence committee for being a Bush rubber stamp.

So my guess is that this is just another shiv being put into Pelosi's back by Harman. Harman was also a likely source for Joe's "FISA" column--specifically the suggestion that there was a bipartisan effort that was deep-sixed by Pelosi. Harman isn't on the intelligence committee, but that wouldn't have stopped her from trying to do an end run around Reyes (and Conyers) by working with Hoekstra.

I mean, its obvious from even this piece that Joe is lying for Harman. According to the Post article, the briefings took place in September 2002, i.e. A FULL YEAR after 9-11 (not " in the months after the September 11 attacks.")

I mean, the FIRST FREAKING WORDS OF THE ARTICLE ARE IN SEPTEMBER 2002.

Once again, Joe Klein demonstrates his willingness to flat out lie in order to justify his moronic opinions...

Normally I criticize Joe, but I have to hand it to him here - he took a definitive stand against torture.

Now he needs to take a stand against Joe Klein's dishonesty on FISA. Then he will be redeemed.

There Is No Excuse For Torture.

None.

Got it Joe?

And what is with the congressional screaming, blaming and finger pointing by those who oppose criminal activity? Iowa has had about enough of those who blame and point fingers at criminals and their apologists.

Only extremists bring up things like the Geneva Conventions while the punditariat are peeing their beds.

It is extreme to not approve of electric wires on genitals, and waterboarding. All those damned extremists opposed these reasonable measures.

Do you ever listen to yourself Joe and realize how you sound?

You have a problem, Joe Klein. An article came out about who might be responsible for the U.S. policy to torture people and your *first, immediate reaction* is to tell us to move on? How about, no. How about, let's hear what Pelosi has to say, what she saw, who showed it to her, to what extent the CIA allowed congresspeople to register any opinion whatsoever...

But no, your immediate, knee-jerk reaction is to encourage ignorance. This is exactly why you're a two-bit, low-life hack who can't string 10 words together without being wrong about something. Just Shut. Up.

What Acid J said.

In Kleinspeak a "source close to Nancy Pelosi" means that Hoekstra was slithering around the next room.

Some of the more extreme elements on the left-wing of the Democratic Party will lapse into their traditional wailing about the Bush-appeasing weakness of their party leaders.

Yeah, damn right! How dare left-wingers, or anyone for that matter, criticize any Democrats who have abetted torture.

Extremists.

The US has repeatedly refused to become party to the UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE
and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment and other anti-torture agreements or pass internal anti-torture legislation. Torture has always been illegal under US law, agreements and convention. Every version of FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation, has included the restriction of the Geneva and Hague conventions against torture and abuse.

However, there have been certain exceptions made:

During the LBJ administration, specail orders from the SecDef and DCIA approved the conditional use of Interrogation tactics beyond the techniques currently in utilization for specific counterintelligence operations to counter the spead of communism in Southeast Asia. This authorization was restriced to a hand-full of programs in Vietnam.

These authorizations were continues during the Nixon administration until the end of the Vietnam War.

Subsequently in April 1976, the SecDef authorization for the continuation of defense counterintelligence programs to countinue the use of the 'Vietnam Authorization' for enhanced anti-communist operations in Latin America was signed, giving carte blanche to defense operations to use any interrogation technique "authorized under the laws of the host nation".

During that same time period, CIA operations taught and advised the used of coersive interrogaation to Latin American defense and counter-insurgent forces, but were prohibited from themselves engaging in any activity which would violate US laws or Agreement.

The 1963 CIA counterintelligence Interrogation manual discusses coercive interrogation, the use of pain and fear during Interrogation and reflecting the science of the practice, talks about the ineffiency of torture as a reliable means of gaining information. (cite: http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/freebook/neuro/k4.html#IXL).

The defense departement persued a more agressive stance on the boundaries of interrogation. The DoD special authorization for counterintelligence operations is still classified.

In 1984 under SecDef Casper Weinberger, the school of the Americas was moved to the US, where restricted techniques were taught to Latin American allies.

Most of the extend authorizations by the DoD for enhanced counterintelligence Interrogation were signed into effect between 1990-1992. These were taken off the books again in 1997, following an internal investigation about the treatment of Haitian refugees.

These are the techniques which were resurrected post September 11th.

The US has always held that torture was against the law, and it's practice was not allowed, but after seeing the sheer volume of abuses and authorizations of 'grey-area' tactics, it is important and necessary for the US to generate specific legislation regarding the definitions of torture, approved practices and necessary oversight.

I'm writing this from Iowa and one thing I've heard consistently from people who do not live in Washington--or profit from the partisan debates therein--is that they simply hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate. It is time to simply and definitively outlaw torture, and move on.

You know, that's one of the most breathtakingly dishonest bits o' crap I've seen. You can't possibly have heard "consistently" that they hate "screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate."

People don't watch Congressional debates. Almost none are available for easy viewing, and the ones that are happen during the day, when most people are working. So this claim is a lie.

Most people rely on folks like you, Joe, to report on what happens in Congress. And we now know, Joe, that you telegraph the dishonest talking points of "screaming, blaming, fingerpointing" congressman without attribution. (I left out "lying" only because you did.)

It is time to simply and definitively outlaw torture, and move on.

I can certainly believe that people are sick of partisanship and incompetence. Even people in Iowa. And I'm pretty darned sure that the people in Iowa would be surprised to find that torture was legal. In your next conversation with some "real Iowan" you spend time with, can you check to see whether s/he thought torturing people was legal in US? Can you check to see whether they are pressing for this legislation, or that it never occurred to them that issue would ever arise?

The problem was never that torture was not definitively illegal. The problem is that the administration broke that law, and they have still not been made accountable.

More legislation changes nothing.

More legislation is pernicious.

It gives legal cover to the malefactors -"Hey, I have a memo here that says it is not torture, and sure enough, Congress went ahead in 2008 that made waterboarding illegal!"

No law should be passed, just rely on the law as it is. Prosecute, and let the accused try this theory of their that waterboarding is legal in their defense.

Every time some jerk comes up with the "pass the law already" comment you know that it comes straight from the White House Office of Legalistic Crooks. That means Joe, here, is at best a dupe, a useful idiot for the war criminals. At worst, he is another Armstrong Williams.

No to Joke Line.
No to torture.
Yes to Hillary.
It really IS that simple.

Joe, after your FISA fiasco, I wrote that anything you posted from that point forward would be a waste of bandwidth.

You've done nothing to change my opinion.

You're unaware that torture is ALREADY illegal.

Your "sources" are still secret and probably bogus.

You still have no shame, no integrity, and no dignity.

Brazen it out, Joe. Just like George Bush. He's your model. Lie after lie after lie after lie. All you gotta to is smirk when you lie. That way, it'll be familiar.

How you sleep at night is beyond me.

What is wrong with Joe's post is pretty well addressed, but I think the following line is the real point...

"What the United States stands for now, and in the future, should be far more important than where we stood during the post-9/11 panic."

Joe Klein and a host of other enablers are working slyly, but feverishly to justify their war support or torture support, in short, their embrace of authoritarianism. This is their, when frightened, default position.
Why would the "future" be any different for these guys?

"There was fear that we would be attacked again by terrorists, and on a regular basis. Few were thinking clearly about the nature of the threat and how to deal with it."

Translation: That's why I should be excused for saying on TV that we should attack Iraq!

Also, to follow up on jayackroyd's comment:

"I'm writing this from Iowa and one thing I've heard consistently from people who do not live in Washington--or profit from the partisan debates therein--is that they simply hate the steady diet of screaming, blaming and finger-pointing that dominates almost every last Congressional debate."

Question, junior Broder: is Bill O'Reilly popular in Iowa? Is Sean Hannity?

If yes, I guess you have no idea what you are talking about.

"Few were thinking clearly about the nature of the threat and how to deal with it."

Then why do you guys get paid the big bucks? I like Atrios's comment. "Not thinking clearly" does not suspend the rule of law. That's the rule of man, not the rule of law.

I'm not saying that Pelosi and Rockefeller should be run out of DC on a rail, but I am saying this speaks to how well they can deal with rule-of-law issues themselves. If they've gotten their hands dirty, how well can they deal with other people who've done much worse?

But I'd still like to hear the details of the story, who all these anonymous sources were. How do we know they don't have scores to settle?

"What the United States stands for now,... should be far more important than where we stood "

Why? Are you done wetting your pants now? Wouldn't intelligent and thoughtful leadership addressed these issues on 9/12? How should the world deal with non-state actors? These are good questions and real leaders would have stood up and addressed them head on when we had the support of the world. You and your ilk want to make excuses for the brainless f*cktards that inhabit Washington on both sides of the aisle.

TPM Muckraker has some more details:

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004860.php

Joe Klein's sacred "bipartisanship" in action folks...

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دردشة كتابيه

شات كتابي

شات

شات مصري

شات خليجي

شات سوري

دردشه سوريه

دردشة مغربيه

دردشه سعوديه

دردشة كتابيه

دردشة

دردشه

العاب

سعوديات

بنات سعوديات

بنت السعوديه

غرام

برق

الود

 فله

مطابخ

صور

مركز تحميل

دردشة كويتيه

دردشة سعوديه

دردشة خليجيه

دردشه فله

فله

دردشة عمانيه

دردشة اماراتيه