More Candor

He acknowledged the public would find out about the "torture tapes."

Really.

I read the NYT piece in its dead tree edition. There's no statement that these interrogations involved torture.

Will TIME state that these interrogrations were destroyed because they document the use of torture by the CIA? Will TIME state that the president has lied when he says that "We don't torture"?

"CIA Director Hayden acknowledges that the public was going to find out about the CIA torture tapes anyway, but he still gets points for coming clean."

Hayden gets credit for engaging in damage control?!?!

You are a fool.

Reading the WaPo story linked by Joe:

"we may see misinterpretations of the facts in the days ahead."

says Hayden.

I guess that's "coming clean" with refreshing "candor."

They destroyed evidence, Joe. They did it because they broke the law and didn't want to go to jail. They showed 'refreshing candor' because the Times had the story, according the WaPo story you linked to.

It's not candor when you're caught.

And, apologies for not getting this all into one post, calling this "candor" really reinforces the idea that it wasn't "OBviously" true that you were praising the US and not "he" for "refreshing candor" yesterday when the president got caught lying to the American public.

Jeez.

Joe sez:

But this represents yet another case where the intelligence community has released information that hammers the Bush Administration's credibility--and, more important, helps the prospects of the bill that Congress will soon produce mandating that all government agencies conform to the anti-torture provisions of the Army Field Manual.

In what universe does Joe live? The true revelation is NOT that the tapes' existence was admitted, because the truth was bound to come out, given so many rumors from so many sources. No, you fool. The only news here is that the CIA, in the face of the subpoenas from the 9/11 Commission AND federal discovery & resulting Federal Court Orders demanding that the CIA disclose ALL DATA, DOCUMENTS, TAPES, MATERIALS, and RECORDINGS responsive to the request?

Joe, you really don't have a clue, do you? What happened here is not just contempt of a federal court order. What happened is not simply a discovery game, an effort to protect the IDs of lawbreaking, of torturers, of how the US acted under the direct orders of your friends, Team Bush, and the direct result of Alberto Gonzales', Addington's Yoo's, Libby's Cheney's, Rumsfeld's, and Rice's war crimes. This was deliberate spoliation of evidence specifically requested by two bodies with discovery or subpoena power.

That, you self-satisfied, smug, lazy, journalist wannabee, is called a crime.

On the second point: maybe the reason why we see a "decrease" in Iranian mischief lately is because we WERE BEING LIED TO ABOUT THAT INVOLVEMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Now that the NIE took the wind out of the Bushies' drumbeat for war, the government has less need to lie to us on that point.

You must still believe in the Easter bunny, you poor, pathetic tool.

I see that its already been pointed out that a confession elicited by the news that you've been caught out doesn't really qualify as candor.
Only in this brave new 1984 inspired world, where the President can look directly at the cameras and tell a blatant clear lie, confident that the press will spare no effort to avoid noting the obvious, can this be referred to as candor.

It's just a sign of how far down we've slid.

And as usual, Joe Klein is way too comfortable with the new rules to bother being anything but an avid enforcer of them.

Glenn, of course, points out this is obstruction of justice. And as PastorAg says, illegal.

Leave it to Joe to praise the CIA for breaking the law. Or, sorry, to refusing to admit it once it hears a news story is coming out documenting its obstruction.

It's especially weird seeing this as the media slowly discovers the Dumond case--reminding us all of the days when a twisted and false rumor about the president was front page news. The contrast to this president routinely violating the law and being praised for "candor" is really remarkable.

I'd sorta get it if he were some kind of blazingly successful propagandist. But the only people who buy his [barnyard epithet] are the beltway media. The 76 percent of America that is literate get this. What is up with you people?

"CANDOR"?

Un-flippin' believable.

Fire Klein, hire Greenwald.

In April, I compiled a long list of the numerous court proceedings and other investigations which were impeded by extremely dubious claims from the Bush administration that key evidence was mysteriously "missing." Much of the "missing" evidence involved precisely the type of evidence that the CIA has now been forced here to admit it deliberately destroyed: namely, evidence showing the conduct of its agents during interrogation of detainees.

There were not kidding when they said Bush was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I don't believe a war criminal in history has gotten the free ride this clown has.

Imagine the reaction if a Democrat did this.

Lets see, they destroyed a tape of WAR CRIMES! Jumping Joe gives him points. WTF Time, can you hire a real liberal?

I also have to comment that the rationale for destruction (to "protect the interrogators from retaliation from al Qaeda" is laughably ridiculous.

They never heard of placing a black spot over a face, or scrambling the audio?

This is spoliation of evidence, Joe. Against the express, written advice of intelligence committee members like Jane Harman, if she's to be believed.

Why do YOU think they destroyed the tapes, Joe? Did they do it in a fit of "candor?"

Not to destroy the evidence would have been politically tone deaf. It's the kind of thing a democrat might do.

Ana, Karen, and Jay:

If you don't separately post on this subject, it means you agree with Joe: destruction of evidence, and admitting it when there's a front page article on the subject in the New York Times (while giving a cover story for the rationale) is "candor."

This must be Time's official position.

Time is now simply a propaganda organ for a dying breed of criminals.

It was commented in another thread that this kind of BS is what led Robespierre, et al. to start chopping off heads after the French Revolution.

I know whose head I'd like to stick in a guillotine for passing on such tripe.

Hear what Joe thinks of your comments:
http://i.timeinc.net/time/podcast/klein/time_klein.mp3

Oh, and he says he doesn't see why he should ever have to mention anything about his sourcing. I guess if Hoekstra was my source, I wouldn't want to mention it either.

My last post comes from here:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/12/07/cia_evidence/index.html

Um, Joe...I don't think you're the right person to talk about candor. Not after you've been caught lying as many times as you have.

You've got to give Joe "courage points" on this one. Having completely discredited himself and Time magazine in the past couple of weeks, he's doubling down on his original bet and running with the "credulous, incompetent, ill-informed, dishonest hack" routine as fast and as far as his journamalistic legs will take him.

Congress wants to restore oversight of surveillance directed at Americans? The Democrats are coddling the terrorists! Bush suppresses the NIE conclusion that Iran disbanded its nukes program in 2003 for months, even as he's been scaring people with visions of a nuclear Holocaust initiated by Iran? Bush is being candid! He didn't even try to spin the NIE!

And now, government agencies have been caught destroying evidence that incriminates those very same agencies? They're being candid!

You've got to admit that Joe is showing tremendous resolve.

You've also got to admire the courage of the Time editors and managers who have done their level best to make sure that Joe's increasingly unhinged journamalism is waved into print without "editing" or "fact-checking", and that he continues to serve as Time magazine's representative on television shows. Less courageous editors and managers might have lacked the backbone to let Joe shred Time's reputation. Less resolute editors and managers might have insisted on correcting Joe's "factual errors" or letting the targets of Joe's smears respond to his claims. Not Time!

The Time folks know how to stand by their man, even when their man happens to be utterly incompetent.

Heckuva job! Pullitzers all around!

People know I'm not a fan of the Joe Klein bashing that goes on on this site, but this is pretty unbelievable.

At least Hayden didn't lie about it in the face of being caught? Yeah, my parents used to punish me worse for lying about my mischef when I was like 7, but we're all adults here.

Could it be anymore obvious these were held back to distort the natiional debate about torture? One looks at this "agressive interrogation" and I'll bet this country would realize just what it has been letting go on.

Heads should roll over this. And no, Joe Klein, "candor" doesn't mitigate the initial lie.

CANDOR? Destructon of evidence and obstruction of justice is CANDOR. When exactly did we slip into this alternative universe? When did it become 1984?
'
The capability--if not the desire--to eventually produce a nuclear weapon, to be sure.'

Umm, they don't have the capability, Joe. Possibly they have the desire. Do you write everything this backwardly?

And then there's this...

'And the need for demagogues like BUSH to plump a HITLER in order to divert the Iranian public's attention from the unemployment, crumbling economy and absence of freedom internally.'

Oops. should have been...

'And the need for demagogues like BUSH to plump a HITLER in order to divert the AMERICAN public's attention from the unemployment, crumbling economy and absence of freedom internally.'

Of all the things one could say in the face of this revelation, this is what Joe comes up with? Do you even realize how useless your commentary is?

He gets points? Points? How about freaking jail time?

Candor

I do not think that word means what you think it means, Joe.

Here's the definition of candor:

1. Frankness or sincerity of expression; openness.
2. Freedom from prejudice; impartiality.

Seriously, the disclosure shortly in advance of information which was about to be released by others, is not candor. It's political management. This behavior, as does the NIE lack any of the signature qualities of the word candor, such as sincerity or expression (as you yourself not the obvious lie in why the tapes were destroyed), or the more ridiculous assertion that this release of information exemplifies "Freedom from prejudice; impartiality.

Jesus, could you be any lazier?

but he still gets points for coming clean.

Joe, you wrote this knowing that people would laugh at the very idea that you even know what "coming clean" means, right?

****************

Its ridiculous that the US is destroying these tapes -- the idea that they no longer have any intelligence value is sheer nonsense. You really can't know what value they may have in the future...

But what REALLY bothers me is that the CIA isn't taping interogations at all. People have 'tells' - things they do when they aren't telling or are avoiding the truth -- and by examining the tapes, behavioral experts can determine further lines of inquiry, etc... ALL information is potentially valuable/relevant in the gathering and evaluation of intelligence, and the CIA should be taping the interrogations because there are clues in the physical behavior of people that don't come through in transcripts.

Hayden "gets points"? We are talking evidence that was twice ordered to be produced by a federal judge. The CIA twice lied to the court and denied the existence of the tapes to the judge, then intentionally destroyed them with the approval of the CIA Inspector General:

http://tinyurl.com/2dh3zw

Can you imagine how horrific those tapes must be?

The Inspector General (and others) should be tried for contempt of court.

And Joe, if you watch Inside Edition, you'll see they invented this neat gizmo that scrambles people's faces and voices onscreen.

The idea that they would actually say they destroyed these tapes because Bin Laden would come to Northern Virginia to get these torturers is absurd and a real low point among many for this Administration.

Joke line: Time Magazine's lovable douche.

Joe, I hope your comments about Hayden's "candor" and his "coming clean" were intended in jest (though I fear not). I'm tempted to insert a snarky comment speculating about what "direct orders" you might be reacting to or which quality source you might be channeling here.

For folks who are interested in a serious discussion of the matter, I recommend Spencer Ackerman.

What jayackroyd said at 8:20.

Joe, in comments to your "Misinterpreted" column, I said I would give you the benefit of the doubt that by "remarkable moment of candor" you were not referring to Bush (despite what grammar would suggest). But now you're attributing "candor" to Hayden for the implausible explanations he gave in reaction to the New York Times piece he knew was coming, I need to retract that.

Any plans to follow up on FISA? Do you stand by your original thesis that the Democrats did something wrong (to say nothing of "well beyond stupid") there?

But it's the Democrats that are soft on national security right Joe? That's the tired old line you like to sell isn't it?

We're much better off with these republicans in charge aren't we Joe?

I saw how totally busted the Democrats on their FISA bill which would have transferred control of our military to Osama Bin Laden. Good catch!

And good call not allowing any Democrats to respond as well!

Is it me, or is Swampland/TIME just not worth our time anymore? Since Joke Line's and TIME's FISA blowup, it just feels like interacting with these people is a waste of words.

(I posted this comment the the carpetbagger report, but it fits this discussion as well)

The central argument from the administration has been that what they were doing 1) was totally legal, and 2) extracting extremely valuable information.

*IF* that were true, the tapes would be a valuable resource. The information gleaned from the suspected terrorists would need to be preserved in the records, and the tapes could even be used as training for proper/legal interrogations. At the very least, the interrogations would be a necessary part of any evidentiary trail.

But if the activity on the tapes were illegal, and/or the information of no probative value, well, then all the better to get rid of them…

I got it -- when Joe wrote that CIA Director Hayden "gets points for coming clean," he really meant that the United States gets points?

[(x_1 + x_2)/2 , (y_1 + y_2)/2]

Joe is just following script, searching for the mid-point between the pro torture faction and the rule of law crowd.

The lesson of the story, children, is that if you torture people, and get caught, it's okay, as long as you admit it when the person with the evidense walks in carrying it.

Repent, and anything is forgiven. Even torture.

Even if you didn't repent, you just... admitted that gravity exists.

To recap:

1. Torture
2. Lie about it
3. ...
4. "Points!"

I typically don't join in the Joe Klein bashing -- I mean can we all just get over the Primary Colors thing? But this -- this, is just beyond the pale.

Joe are you just trying to piss off the blogosphere?

This is obstruction of justice! And its not the first time this administration has destroyed evidence in these detainee cases. The government "lost" 72 hours of the interrogation of Jose Padilla.

Even the self-proclaimed "RightWingNutHouse" can see this for what it is.

http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/12/06/cia-destroys-torture-tapes/

Have you no shame sir? No decency left? I join in the calls of my fellow posters, calling for your dismissal.

Z. Mulls is so right that it bears repeating.

The administration says that it doesn't torture, that it follows the law and that these interrogations are extremely valuable and "keep us safe."

That is entirely inconsistent with the destruction of these tapes.

As Glenn has already pointed out, this is de facto obstruction of justice.

And it is an admission that the interrogations were torture.

Now, part of what is going on here is that everybody knows--especially everybody in the Village knows--that the US is torturing people. And so it really doesn't strike Joe as big news. Just as it didn't strike the Village as important news as each of the administration's pretexts for invading Iraq collapsed--everybody knew that they were pretexts, so there was no point in running stories that said "President Bush and Vice President Cheney systematically lied to the American People."

But, Joe, it's really time to start engaging in some of this "journalism" you've heard about. Even when you're in the difficult live teevee medium. And when you make an "OBvious" mistake, you should correct it, not lecture people who point out that you were wrong.

Hayden wasn't at the CIA at the time, people, which Klein notes in the post. The "heads should roll" or "jail time" comments directed at Hayden are pretty damn stupid.

Oh my god do you not actually read things before you write?

Hayden didn't "come clean" until after the NYTimes told them they were going to publish a story about the tapes. Wow, a public servant doesn't lie to our faces AFTER a major newspaper exposes them. And he gets credit for it?

And his explanation is ridiculous. Really, the CIA couldn't blur the faces of agents or otherwise disguise them? MTV can do that.

Come on Joe, this isn't a oh-so-complicated legal situation like FISA, this is common sense, even u should be able to handle it.

Why don't you give Senator Craig credit for coming clean too?

There's a pattern here:

Klein always praises and respects American officials who, like him, are "good Germans."

"CIA Director Hayden acknowledges that the public was going to find out about the CIA torture tapes anyway, but he still gets points for coming clean"

Having now read the reporting and understanding the timing and context of Hayden's disclosure, I can say with perfect certainty Joe Klein is a useless hack of the lowest order.

It gets better.

The CIA says they told Congress they were going to destroy the tapes. The Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee that would have been informed of the tapes destruction was. . .wait for it. . .Joe Klein source extraordinare Pete Hoekstra!!

At long last have you no decency sir? Have you no shame?

Todd and In Charge:

Regarding the CIA Inspector General, Spencer Ackerman at TPM wonders if he was even allowed to render a judgement on the destruction of the tapes (he has been under attack from Hayden). It's also a much better take on what happened than you'll get from the lazy, dishonest and utterly clueless Joe Klein:

[i]Hayden makes not a single plausible claim about the tapes and why they were destroyed. He said in an internal message to CIA employees that the release of the tapes -- whether to the judge or to the inquiries or to, ultimately, the press -- would have allowed al-Qaeda to identify CIA interrogators and then target them for retribution. The appropriate response to that is: LOL. The CIA has the capacity to move its operatives around the world, including to places where there aren't any al-Qaeda "assassins" -- like, say, northern Virginia. To say otherwise, as Hayden does, is to tacitly concede that CIA is too incompetent to protect its people.

Hayden said that the tapes in 2005 "were no longer of intelligence value and not relevant to any internal, legislative, or judicial inquiries." First, that ducks the question of why they weren't relevant to, say, the joint Congressional inquiry or the 9/11 Commission, which they obviously were. Second, Moussaoui was convicted in 2006. The tapes were clearly relevant to his case, as Moussaoui wanted Abu Zubaydah's interrogation entered into the record for his defense (bin al-Shibh's, too). The Justice Department told Judge Brinkema that the interrogation wasn't videotaped. Someone at CIA either lied to DOJ (likely) or someone at DOJ lied to Brinkema (less likely). Third, Congress has been trying to get information about CIA interrogations for years. These are obviously relevant to that "legislative inquiry" as well.

He also said that the CIA's general counsel -- who works for the agency's director -- said the destruction was kosher, while neglecting to say whether his persecuted inspector general ever rendered a judgment here.[/i]

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004845.php

Thanks for that link, TheObnox.

If the CIA's general counsel -- a member of the Bar somewhere -- said the destruction was kosher, in the face of two court orders compelling their production -- Judge Brinkema should hold a contempt hearing and refer him asap to his state bar.

Sadly, I'm not optimistic our Dem leaders will hold these people accountable, given Rockefeller/Harmon.

But as an attorney I still hold out hope that a federal judge will take some concrete action.

I also suspect Padilla will raise this in a post-trial motion before Judge Cooke in Miami.

My God

Joe Klein now thinks destroying evidence and covering up war crimes is an example of "candor" and "coming clean."

Thanks Atrios.

I couldn't have said it better myself...

War crimes trials for crimes against humanity are clearly indicated. Hopefully Hillary will make it happen.

"Hayden gets credit for engaging in damage control?!?!

You are a fool."

Or a tool...

Since Joke Line's and TIME's FISA blowup, it just feels like interacting with these people is a waste of words.

Interaction? There's no interaction here. Klein and Carney never seem to post in the comments section. They just throw their stuff out here and go on to their next project; it's all one-way with them, just like the dead-tree version.

I sometimes wonder if they even read all this. I have no doubt that Klein doesn't, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that he had some secretary type his stuff in for him.

liberalrob - I have it on good authority that Joke Line reads and participates, but as several of the commenters here. He knows that he posted as himself he would not be taken seriously. Heck, I cannot even believe him when he says something true and bad about Bush now.

This being an intelligence matter, you have thoroughly vetted your comments with Hoekstra, haven't you?

I am going to jump in on the very unpopular side of this arguement.

Gen. Hayden has a track record for being a stand-up guy. As DirNSA he is the one who put a stop to, and publically announced the warrentless-wire tapping and corrected the error.

Also destroying the interrogation tapes (refering to them as "Torture tapes" is irresponsible, as the vast vast majority of interrogaiton both by the CIA & other agencies of the government are conducted within the boundaries of the law by responsible professionals) is a common practice, once the documentation has been completed video archives are parced (cut down to small segemnts of important or necessary clips) and the main recording is destroyed for protection for the interrogators and for storage reasons.

Keeping hundred hours of tapes for the purpose of about 15 minutes of dialogue spead across them is inefficient. So the destruction of tapes is a common practice across the entire IC.

Were there incidents of torture? Yes, certainly that has been proven that there were instances when particular interrogaitons went too far and when disapproved methods were used.

For the most part the activity which gets refered to as "torture" was a practice which had been approved for use which is simply unpalatable to most people.

Sleep-cycle management, noise/light overload or deprivation, temperture control, etc. practices which erode the will of the subject without causing lasting physical harm were allowed during 2002, they had been in practice for decades before that and are both effective and reasonably humane.

water-boarding, simulated drowning, kinetic-shock (bouncing, yanking or pulling and pushing a subject to cause disorientation), any form of physical coersion, and stress-bonding (using shackles or bonds of any sort to lock a subject into stress positions) are irresponsible and dangerous and have NEVER been allowed under US law as forms of interrogation. More importantly they are also scientifically proven to be ineffective in gain useful accurate information.

If there had been anything on the tapes which was a basis for a war crimes investigaition, I think Gen. Hayden would have reported it, he has done so in the past and has displayed no real love for saving the administration from embarassment.

With all of the above said, I think an audit of the timeline of the tapes destruction, allong with an inquiry of ethics into the legal counsel which authorized their destruction and an inquiry into the actions of Porter Goss during his tenure as DCIA is in order to assure the public that congressional oversight is in fact doing its job.

"he still gets points for coming clean"

How can a guy with so much experience be so naive?

If Hayden had released the tapes before his hand was forced, then he would deserve credit.

But that's not what's happening, is it?

BadKarma, Hayden probably has never even seen the tapes- they were destroyed under Porter Goss. That's why Klein is giving even slight praise to Hayden.

candor: 1. the state or quality of being frank, open, and sincere in speech or expression; 2. the ability to make judgments free from discrimination or dishonesty.

Compared with ...

crime: an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.

Just for your future reference, Joe.

Kleinshield, even though the tapes were actually destroyed under Porter Goss, the content of the tapes, likely, is documented, so Gen. Hayden was briefed on them and their content before making public statements.

If there had been anything in the documentation which was ear-marked as questionable, I am sure he would have initiated an inquest.

Gen. Hayden has shown himself to be a responisble and generally non-political person, and a dedicated professional.

With that said, you don't become a General and the director of the two largest intelligence agencies without a little weasle blood in you. His intenal message to CIA employees was less about veracity that it was about letting his people know he wasn't going to hang them out to dry at the first sign of trouble like the previous two F*cktards to hold the DCIA position.

So I guess every defendant who stands before a judge and pleads guilty is showing incredible 'candor'? So should Hayden clean bedpans at Walter Reed? I still maintain that a bedpan is some kind of vodka beverage and Joke is having some fun w/ us when he says this.

Kleinsheild/Joke, you realize the only reason Hayden acknowledged this is that the story was about to be made public right? Where have you been lately? Finding Joke unshieldable as of late?

BadKarma, isn't it reasonable to make an educated guess that perhaps there is something damaging about the interrogation techniques documented on the tapes? Otherwise the explanation for destruction that Hayden provided -- that disclosure of the tapes would almost certainly bring retribution to those conducting the interrogations -- would not make sense.

And it is not normal for any governmental agency to destroy evidence that is the subject of two existing orders compelling their production, particularly in a situation where government lawyers have denied the evidence's very existence.

Indeed, in the civil realm the penalties for any business and their counsel for analogous conduct would be swift and severe.

Atrios’s take on Klein gets it exactly right, I think:

“My God. Joe Klein now thinks destroying evidence and covering up war crimes is an example of 'candor' and 'coming clean.'

Just moronic.

Todd, There wouldn't have to be anything illegal or horrible on the tapes to warrant retribution against the Interrogators on the tapes, in general Interrogators are a hated and maligned group of people, it kinda just goes with the job.

There is also the remainder of their professional lives to be considered, being known to the public in that career field can be both dangerous and damaging.

Anything on the tapes that could identify the Interrogation personnel or their translators would be a security risk, that is one of the reason tapes are routinely destroyed.

I agree with your point that THESE tapes were the subject of subpoena and they should have been turned over to the oversight authority without delay, as is the usual process. There are security non-disclosure agreements in place within the oversight process which protect the identity of interrogation personnel because of the very real risk of repraisals (interrogation is not pleasant, even when done legally and using only humane and approved methods). So there would have been little risk, unless congress acted irresponsibly.

Mr. Goss should answer for the destruction of evidence and the legal counsel which agreed that the destruction of materiels which have been ordered by the court to be produced was legal should be investigated for ethical violations and held to criminal liability.

Identification could be avoided by blacking out the portions that portray the interrogators. And I don't buy that it was inconvenient to hold onto the tapes for "storage reasons" or whatever you were trying to float above, either. (BTW, if you store it on an secured computer site, it takes up no physical room whatsoever. Or maybe we could store the tapes in a vault in the Vatican City-sized Embassy we're building in Baghdad. Think they could find a spare cubby-hole?)

Any videotaped interrogation is significant, if for no other reason, to challenge the detention of those being interrogated. A coerced confession, offered while being drowned, might be germane to proceedings relevant to the "detained" guest at Guantanamo, doncha think?

Bad Karma, I don't buy what you're selling above regarding the after-the-fact rationales for destruction. (I'd like to compare Hayden's rationales with what was actually discussed in the chain of correspondence that actually led to their destruction.) I can't imagine a single, legitimate reason to destroy the tapes. Wanna try again?

SFBear, I am not trying to sell you on anything, that is just how it is. I'm not trying to justify the reason, just letting you know what they are.

As a person who was once employed in this trade, I can tell you that I agree VERY adamantly that video and audio recording of ALL interrogations should be common place and entered into evidence as a routine portion of the process.

Blacking out the video of Interrogators and masking the audio is the BEST way to show that things were done right, and no abuses took place and if that was the policy then the destruction of these tapes would seem like more of an oddity and stand out as a sign of criminal behavior more than they do now.

But that is not the feeling of the people on the blame line.

Well, the paper trail that led to the destruction ought to tell the tale of why the tapes were destroyed.

Five will get you ten that the rationales Hayden recited to the press ranked no higher than 7 or 8 among the reasons. Assuming this is so, which I am more than ready to do, I can hardly praise him.

My guess is that fear of war crimes tribunals, and their value to the defense at trials of the detainees ranked much higher. The Padilla tapes disappeared, too. Oopsies!

The investigation should be interesting.

That is something that we can agree on, the ENTIRE chain of events, legal reviews and reporting from all of the interrogations associated with the tapes should be released regardless of the classification so the entire tale is out in the open.

As for the rational, there is no way that the safety of the interrogators ever entered into the eqasion with the decision makers, IF that makes the list it is #10.

Anything touched by the FBI since September 11th has been a nightmare of missing and lost evidence.

Anything done by CIA without another agency in oversight has been suspect at best.

GTMO kangaroo courts have been a shambles since 2002, and it has gotten a little worse everyday since...video would have secured some convictions, released some folks that don't need to be there and made everyone follow the rules.

Candor? Courage? Not only a 180° misreading, but all this from Joe Klein? Why are we still reading this man?

Watch out, or Joe is going to open a candor whoopass...

Oh no!

The CIA slapped around some freakin DNC-enabled terrorists!

Oh the humusmanatee!

Candor is defined as "The happy quality possessed by people who tell the lies that Joe Klein likes" see: good Nazis.

Pretty much describes all the things Joke stands for in his neverending fight against the DNC.

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صرقعه  شات منتدي قلوب دليل مواقع  العاب  sitemap شات كتابي عالم الرومانسية قلوب السعودية

صرقعه شات منتدي قلوب دليل مواقع العاب sitemap شات كتابي عالم الرومانسية قلوب السعودية

صرقعه شات منتدي قلوب دليل مواقع العاب sitemap شات كتابي عالم الرومانسية قلوب السعودية

صرقعه شات منتدي قلوب دليل مواقع العاب sitemap شات كتابي عالم الرومانسية قلوب السعودية

صرقعه شات منتدي قلوب دليل مواقع العاب sitemap شات كتابي عالم الرومانسية قلوب السعودية

صرقعه شات منتدي قلوب دليل مواقع العاب sitemap شات كتابي عالم الرومانسية قلوب السعودية

صرقعه شات منتدي قلوب دليل مواقع العاب sitemap شات كتابي عالم الرومانسية قلوب السعودية

صرقعه شات  منتدي قلوب دليل مواقع العاب  sitemap شات كتابي  عالم الرومانسية  قلوب السعودية

بلوتوث مقاطع جوال


قسم الصحه



قسم الرجه


افلام عربيه




المسابقات




ثيمات الجيل الثالث



قصص حزينه قصص رومانسيه


الالعاب


افلام اجنبيه



القسم الاسلامي




نغمات Mp3



شعر-شعراء-خواطر-كلمات اغاني


اناقه رجل



منتدى الفضائح



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تصاميم


عالم السيارات وصور السيارات


صور مقلعين


الحوار والنقاش الجاد




برامج جوال


برامج كميوتر



القسم الرياضي


صور رومانسيه



المقلط والترحيب





قسم البوم صور المقلعين



وبيكات ملونه توبيكات ماسنجر


ازياء-موضه-فساتين-مكياج


صور بنات


منتدى الجرائم والحوداث






قسم الشعر والمهايط



رسائل رومنسيه وسائط  حب


اطباق-طبخ-مأكولات


صور انمى



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 الثقافة الجنسية
الثقافة الجنسية الثقافة الجنسيه

 
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