Liveblogging: The Shoutfest in St. Pete

An opening song.
Well, at least there's no pretense of dignity.

I hope they have somebody in a Reagan mask asking a question. Or clowns.

Fred just said United States Americans! Ms. Teen South Carolina anyone?

Republicans should be sad right now.

Huckabee should just refuse to speak if he wants to keep up the big mo.

Here's a question that is yet to be asked:

Which one of your war loving social justice hating republicans ordered Joke Line to write the piece on FISA?

What T4T said.

Is it possible that we could've underestimated how much Republicans hate brown people?

poor anderson is getting ignored like whoa.

when things slow down, feel free to mention that Time has issued a new "correction" to Kleins execrable series of lies.

Of course, Time still isn't acknowledging that Klein lied in his column...

and Time Inc. allowed Klein to rewrite history, and isn't acknowledging that the first correct was a flat out lie of its own.

so it should come as no surprise that Time Inc is STILL LYING about what Klein wrote in its new correction.

Greenwald, as usual, has all the gory details...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/11/28/new_correction/index.html

(is it hard to breathe with you head in the sand, AMC?)

THEO - this debate and how they campaign will help usher in a long Republican minority.

Maybe Kanye wasn't thinking big enough They don't care about brown or black people..

We all know damn well Ron Paul believes not only in the North American Union, but Bigfoot, UFOs, and the Tooth Fairy.

Does Saint John win because he is the least crazy?

50 immigration questions and trilateralists to start.

We are doomed.

A strong dollar makes our exports more expensive. A weak dollar gives our items more value.

A strong dollar makes imports cheaper. A weak dollar makes them cost considerably more.

Rudy Giuliani is an idiot.

If we get rid of the IRS, does that mean we can stop paying Ron Paul and Mike Huckabee?

McCain Godwinned it.

Shut down the cameras; debate's over.
(And thank God.)

Bonus points that Huckabee was the only one to admit that DHS needs to be reformed from its bloated, ineffective form. I was afraid it would be too much of a "liability" to say.

Oh, and is Huckabee missing a few teeth, or is it just the angle? :P

Romney just said he wants open markets AND subsidies.
How'd he ever get the reputation of taking both sides of issues?!?

Ugh...every time Tom Tancredo smiles, God kills a kitten.

50 immigration questions and trilateralists to start.

the thing is, the Republicans love talking about how much they hate undocumented brown people, and none of the questions were "gotchas" for any of the candidates that were asked them -- In democratic debates, its almost all 'gotcha' questions -- and the subject is seldom the ones that Democrats want to talk about.

Alright! Wonkette's own brand of lying.

1. Romney didn't employ illegal aliens. He contracted with a company that allegedly employed illegal aliens. All the time the Globe spent hunting that down could have been spent investigating sweatshops, you know, the ones enabled by the Democratic Party (NewBedford).

2. Tancredo doesn't hate immigrants, as Wonkette falsely states.

3. Wonkette doesn't have the brain power to understand why the DREAMAct is horrific. Here's a rough animation that she can watch over and over until she understand the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZkvEmSy1vk

Can't Time do better than this?

Watch the live coverage on CNN. At least you get some idea of what happens. This liveblog is as much use as a Joe Klein apology.

Will AMC ever mention that CNN is on record as saying that only friendly YouTube questions will be asked?

Will she ever mention that this is an entirely different policy from that used in the Democratic debate?

Will she ever note that Anderscon Cooper is afraid to ask tough followup questions -- but that Wolf Blitzer acted like an attack dog to the Democrats?

Or will she continue to pretend that CNN, which is owned by the same people who employ her, isn't in the bag for the GOP?

Ohmigawd! did he just support the right of Iraqi terrorists to keep and bear arms? ('the rooftops of fallujah?')

Implied threats of violence are always a Republican crowd pleaser.

Kids born out of wedlock!!! Whatever shall we do, Saint Romney!? >_> If only every kid in America had a mom and a dad, we wouldn't have inner city crime! Please...

Half of the Paultards who didn't know where he stands on abortion just jumped ship.

OH MY GOD! TIME HAS JUST LET JOE KLEIN WRITE A NEW, LIE FILLED ARTICLE ABOUT FISA!!!

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1688754,00.html

here is greenwald's take (see update)...

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1688754,00.html

Joe suggests that THE LAW DOES NOT HAVE A SPECIFIC DEFITION FOR THE WORD "PERSONS" THAT JUDGES WILL IN ALL CASES CONSIDER AUTHORITATIVE.

He gets around this by one of the most completely intellectually dishonest bits of writing EVER.

"Republicans — including a senior legal source in the intelligence community who deals with the FISA court regularly — believe that a judge can construe that to mean a review of individuals who have been targeted."

YES, the definition of the word "persons" INCLUDES individuals -- but BY ITS DEFINITION, it also includes groups, and there is NO REVIEW COMPELLED OF ALL INDIVIDUALS CITED IN A TARGETED GROUP. PERIOD. The FISA Courts will review if the 'basket warrant' is being implemented according to the procedures it established. PERIOD.

If, in fact, the court finds that people not affiliated with the targeted group are being wiretapped under the warrant, then they will order that it be stopped. THIS DOES NOT, HOWEVER, SUGGEST THAT WARRANTS WILL HAVE TO BE ISSUED INDIVIDUALLY FOR EVERY MEMBER OF THE GROUP.

Joe Klein is a flat out liar, Ana Marie. You know. ANY IDIOT who can understand basic english knows it.

HOW CAN YOU CONTINUE TO SHARE A WEBSITE WITH AN ABSOLUTE LIAR WITHOUT PROTEST?

er.. p_luk... those two links are the same *s* Of course, I may not have the background to understand what you meant to do.....

Huckabee:
Love your neighbor as yourself...unless you have to kill his A$$.

D'OH!!!

the greenwald link

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/index.html#postid-updateG4

Wednesday November 28, 2007 17:54 EST
Time tries again
(updated below)

Last night, Time posted a truly absurd correction to Joe Klein's error-filled FISA column, a correction which generated at least as much criticism as Klein's initial column and his five separate efforts to explain himself. At some point today, Time went and tried to correct its correction. Here is what it says now (with the new parts in bold):

In the original version of this story, Joe Klein wrote that the House Democratic version of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) would require a court approval of individual foreign surveillance targets. The bill does not explicitly say that. Republicans believe it can be interpreted that way, but Democrats don't.
The Time correction last night completely mischaracterized Klein's original false statement by stating: "Joe Klein wrote that the House Democratic version of [FISA] would allow a court review of individual foreign surveillance targets." They now have changed it to say that Klein wrote that the House bill "would require a court approval of individual foreign surveillance targets." That's a little closer, but still wrong.

What Klein actually wrote was that the bill would "require the surveillance of every foreign-terrorist target's calls to be approved by the FISA court" and thus "would give terrorists the same legal protections as Americans." What's the point of correcting Klein's false statements if they can't even honestly summarize what he actually wrote?

Worse, the insertion of the new sentence "[t]he bill does not explicitly say that" is obviously an effort to avoid the "bad stenographer" criticisms. So, Time's Editors got brave today. They decided to write an actual declarative sentence about what the bill actually includes. That's progress, I suppose.

But by noting merely that the bill does not "explicitly" include what Klein (and his GOP source) claimed it did, and thereafter quickly noting that "Republicans believe it can be interpreted that way," Time actually compounds Klein's original error by now misleading its readers into believing that there is some genuine dispute over whether the House Democrats really did give the same rights to foreign Terrorists as they gave to American citizens. Time is thus encouraging its readers to believe that perhaps Klein was right -- that the Democrats' bill does exactly that which it explicitly says it does not do.

Finally, Time leaves uncorrected the multiple other errors in Klein's piece, including his bizarre claim that there was some great bipartisan bill agreed to by the House Intelligence Committee which Nancy Pelosi "quashed." Nobody has any idea what Klein is talking about, including Intelligence Committee member Rep. Rush Holt (who would obviously know), because no such thing ever happened.

And then there's Klein's claim, citing Chris Dodd, that "when the President takes the oath of office, he (or she) promises two things: to protect the Constitution and to protect the nation against enemies, foreign and domestic." Klein warns Democrats that to win in 2008, they must "find the proper balance between those two." But the oath of office which the President takes actually says nothing of the kind:

Each president recites the following oath, in accordance with Article II, Section I of the U.S. Constitution:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Directly contrary to what Klein said, Presidents only swear to "defend the Constitution," not to "to protect the nation against enemies, foreign and domestic." So that was completely wrong, too; all those serious errors packed tightly into an 855-word column.

So far, Klein has tried to explain himself on five separate occasions. Time has now had to issue two separate corrections -- and counting. That's all within less than a week. And none of them has yet to offer a single, straightforward acknowledgment of their transparent errors nor provide any explanation as to how they happened. How much more embarrassing could Time's conduct be? What this demonstrates about how our establishment media outlets think and function is, at this point, obviously far more important than the original (still uncorrected) fear-mongering lies in Klein's column about the Terrorist-loving House Democrats.

UPDATE: On the page where one finds Klein's article, Time has now also placed this -- the ultimate motto of the media-stenographer: That little box links to a new page where Klein re-states his tortured, convoluted, patently false explanation about why the House Democrats' bill really might do all the terrible things which his GOP sources claimed. And while Klein purports to excerpt the "FISA Section Under Dispute," he doesn't even list the section that expressly states that no warrants are required to eavesdrop on non-U.S. persons outside of the U.S. -- the provision that gives the lie to what he wrote.

So even after all of this, Time and Klein continue to suggest that the House Democrats' bill really can be read to require warrants for eavesdropping on foreign Terrorists' calls even though it explicitly says no warrants are required. What else can one say about how dishonest this is?

Due to a complete lack of integrity and unwillingness to admit its errors, Time has now concocted this fantasy where there is now some sort of raging dispute in Congress about whether the House Democrats' bill can be read to give the same rights to foreign Terrorists as it does to U.S. citizens -- a dispute which is simply non-existent in reality, and which Time invented all in order to defend Klein's original false claims, rather than simply stating that he was wrong. All of this week-long squirming and prevaricating just to avoid admitting that the article they published was false.

p_luk... I assume this was the article you meant

oh, and as Greenwald points out, its not even the part of the law that is in dispute -- because Klein said that the law requires a warrant for the calls of all targeted foreign terrorists -- AND THE LAW SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT DOES NOT REQUIRE SUCH A WARRANT.

WHY IS TIME COVERING FOR THIS SCUMBAG LIAR?

Noun + verb + 9/11 = DRINK

Ana Marie, you are teh hot, and your live blogging of this crap rules, like, totally.

The whole thing would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Statesmen, all of them.

Tsk tsk... p_luk, everyone understands that Joe never lies. He simply does not have the time or background to correct his own errors (which were due to a lack of time and background).

"They're going to follow us home"

So basically, al Qaeda is like a hungry stray kitten that can swim the Atlantic.

They're going to come on camels shipped to our shores by those funny looking Norse ships with the pointy bow.

And they will get as far as Detroit, where the armed and vicious militia will defeat them.

Also, Mexcans are bad.

Giuliani saying that George Will said he's an awesome conservative is like having George Lucas say that Episode 2 was totally AWESOME.

Uh, Senator McCain, didn't you ultimately cave on all the torture stuff?

I'm just a lowly voter...

For the record, Duncan Hunter just used the phrase "small, tight unit" when discussing homosexuality.

Dear God...how long IS this thing?

Now it's just plain funny watching this JokeLine-itis spread. With Joke Line's latest absurdity, it's even MORE absurd watching Cox say nothing.

Is there *nothing* Joke Line could do or say that would get a straight-up honest response from ANYONE at Time?

In a just world, one would be ashamed to put one's stint at Time on one's resume.

Go Cox! Show us how long you can ignore the pathetic dilapidated elephant that is Time's journalistic standards!

Maybe it really IS time for a conference on blogger ethics!

hahahahaha

Please note that Joe still doesn't have a republican on the record saying this. And his anonymous "republican" source is in "the intelligence community" who goes in front of judges at some point.

That seems to me to define an empty set--a lawyer in the intelligence community who brings cases before a judge and is a political appointee. (A civil servant, of course, cannot speak for the republican party, any more than you or I could.)

It really is impossible to claim that "republicans' believe something if nobody will say so publicly and on the record.

Holt is on the record on the letter and intent of his legislation. Where is the republican committee member who will say, on the record, that the bill doesn't mean what it says?

Without that, isn't Joe eventually going to have to retract his "republicans believe" line?

Hey, Fred...I'm pretty sure that the office where George "Macaca" Allen hung the Stars & Bars was a public place.

You remember George, right? One of the co-chairs of your campaign?

Watch the spin. I say, since he's down, McCain wins.

LOL.

The money is on a good horse race. And that's where the Corporate Media will be, come heck or high water.

We are cooked.

I missed about a half hour,did Gloria Vanderbilt's kid ever ask how more tax cuts and a continuing presence in Eye-raq works? I'm guessing no but it would seem to be a no-brainer as far as pertinent questions.

Awesome answer from McCain on waterboarding.

What was Romney up to during the Vietnam war, BTW?

Romney was on his Mormon mission, to France.

Interesting that gets you out of his service, especially since his Dad was "brainwashed" and all.

So.. basically it's a dais full of Republicans trying to show how much they're not like Bush by pretty much acting exactly like Bush?

Again?!

Joe has created a strawman to confuse his readers. This is the provision that debunks Joe's entire premise.

'CLARIFICATION OF ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE OF NON-UNITED STATES PERSONS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES'

Sec. 105A. (a) Foreign to Foreign Communications-

(1) IN GENERAL - Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, a court order is not required for electronic surveillance directed at the acquisition of the contents of any communication between persons that are not known to be United States persons and are reasonably believed to be located outside the United States for the purpose of collecting foreign intelligence information, without respect to whether the communication passes through the United States or the surveillance device is located within the United States.

Hey p_l, on the thread for the last Joe Klein post, you misquoted Joe Klein as saying the Democrats were "weak." Then you said that was okay, because quotes don't have to be direct quotes "in all cases."

The quotes you just laid out, is that one of those non-quote quotes, or is that actually a quote that reflects what someone said? Which case is this? Please clear this up.

And also you should post everything with the Caps Lock on. Screaming becomes you.

http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/d91f3cba-6a87-4686-92ce-70a16edc311b

Thank Allah the Clixons will refund honor and decency to the Doggie Housers!

I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT GAY CALISTAN GENERAL...

http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/d91f3cba-6a87-4686-92ce-70a16edc311b

Right, now we know that evolution is true. I mean, just look at these pathetic creatures, gibbering and hunching onstage! Either they are economically illiterate, or religious hicks pretending to be modern. Romney can't be honest about anything, except his desperate lust for power, while Ron Paul is just a babbling maniac. Tancredo and Hunter should have been stuffed and hung on the wall years ago, and Thompson looks like the Thing from the Crypt and speaks with roughly the same persuasive power. McCain seems to think Vietnam was a victory, while Giuliani emerges as an egomaniac dwarf who apparently created the earth, and on the seventh day saved New York! As for the cult of Ronald the Deficit Clown Reagan, well, can you cite a more pathetic example of a second-rate president transformed by party propaganda? (Leaving aside Bush the Second, that is). What a sordid shabby nasty incompetent crew! At this rate, we might as well vote for Binky the Clown or Ronald McDonald. At least they occasionally make sense (greasy sense, true, but still...).

what I want to know is why nobody ever asks these guys this voter's question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxTnI9zEpRA

Fantastic ！！！Thanx，Ana
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