Dialing the Republicans

Joe, are your pants on firs?

Fire, I meant. Jeez.

Um, Joe, why haven't you been fired yet?

Seriously, Hoekstra? you listen to Peter Hoekstra?

But anyway, why haven't you been fired?

Luntz proves again why he is evil. Nothing is more cynical than taking poll testing to the degree of remote controls.

To top himself, Luntz might hook voters up to MRI machines for the 2012 cycle.

'"I don't have any problem pouring water on the face of a man who killed 3000 Americans on 9/11," said John Shevlin, a retired federal law enforcement officer. The group applauded, appallingly.'

Including Luntz, n'est-ce pas?

Joe, I can't help but notice this long post was just 3 minutes after your previous one. Huh. I wonder why that might be. Also no mention of your critics by name ("Glenn Greenwald" and "Ryan Singel" ring a bell?) in all you posts on FISA. I wonder why that might be.

Joe Klein was for white identity politics used against African-Americans before he was against white identity politics used against Hispanics. I have no idea what this means, if anything. As Jay Carney said, authenticity is very important, and now Joe Klein has none.

Threat Level issued ANOTHER update:
Time Edits Wiretapping Correction, Still Wrong - UPDATED

Joe Klein used a known liar as his source. As Talking Points Memo put it, "Hoekstra's tenure has committee chairman has been one long decline into politicization of intelligence and of the oversight process."

Has this been Joe Klein's source all along? Back in January 2006, he lied this way about domestic spying:
"People like me who favor this program don't yet know enough about it yet," he says, "Those opposed to it know even less -- and certainly less than I do." Apparently Joe Klein was mad at Eric Alterman for not being incompetent enough for TIME magazine.

What about Pete Hoeskstra's imaginary WMD? How dare the Democrats not wear tin foil hats!
You tell them, Joe Klein.

So, we'll be seeing a column attacking the Republicans for being "tone deaf" about torture and bigotry, right? Both are proven electoral losers, and the Republican Party, as it exists now, contains the most historically bigoted sections of the population, so it's a natural criticism to make.

The really sad thing is, this was objectively a good, interesting post. But when viewed in the context of the rest of your stuff, it just underscores how bad you are overall. When presented with explicit examples of Republican racism and thuggery, all you can offer is "I'm worried..."; when presented with a partisan, and flat out wrong, interpretation of a bill that paints the Democrats are "soft on terrorism," you go charging in, guns blazing. And it seems you still don't see why people are so pissed off.

I'm surprised that Joe is a gullible enough mark to buy into Frank Luntz' "undecided Republicans" spiel.

Frank Luntz deliberately selects groups to produce the message he wants to produce. Former members of his "focus groups" at previous debates have gloatingly posted at FreeRepublic.com about how Frank molds the group to produce the desired outcome. CNN should be ashamed for buying into the "focus group" scam.

Frank Luntz is a scam artist and hack neocon slimebag.

Nice - a post about nothing. I think you've found your niche, Joke.

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We feel if you have defamed our product by Hoekstra as "batguano [sic] insane". Our product is significantly more sane (up to 217% based on our lab results) than Hoekstra.

Please issue a correction (not the Joe Klein kind of correction) as soon as possible.

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Guano Gro

The thing I noticed about the debate last night was there was no mention of habeas corpus, education, health care, or FISA. I was especially troubled to see the dearth of FISA mentions. It's important to me, FISA is. I want the candidates to talk about their position on amnesty for the telecoms and about FISA. Why won't they talk about FISA? Seems like only last week they couldn't shut up about FISA, and now nothing. Just a lot of BS.

"I hope the nativists lose, as they almost always have in American history. But I'm worried that they may not."

So when you do the "nativists" bidding by misrepresenting Democratic positions that's what? Making your bones with them?

IMHO, this was a good post, filled with clear information, clear observations, and good background. It's interesting that no matter how many ways you look at the candidates and the electorate, a new nugget or two can be gleaned.

More like this, and I'll be pleased to keep coming back.

"too extreme, religiously, to be President" is code for too much of that whole "love" part of the New Testiment.

http://vikingkitties.blogspot.com/

Don't you think that it would have been better to show the 30 war loving republicans the error of their ways and encourage them to join us in the future and join us in electing Hillary?

Were any of the focus group the ones responsible for making Joe Klein slander the DNC?

Sounds like you were in a room w/ 30 Peter Hoekstras.

Harvard’s Center for Public Leadership National Leadership Index:

The media focuses too much on trivial, rather than important issues: 61% strongly agree, 27% somewhat agree.

Media coverage has too much influence on who Americans vote for: 56% strongly agree, 28% somewhat agree.

Large corporations have too much influence in what the news media reports: 55% strongly agree, 28% somewhat agree.

Most journalists don't make an effort to get the whole story: 46% strongly agree, 30% somewhat agree.

http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/leadership/images/CPLpdf/cpl_index%202007%20%283%29.pdf

Joe's learning! Usually when he finds himself in a room full of 30 Republican extremists he thinks he's found sources.

Joe is so funny. He writes fiction and posts it as fact. But I don't think he's a liar. I think he's just dumb enough to believe a bull-goose loony like Hoekstra. It's not a crime to be stupid and gullible, but it probably doesn't help a journalist's resume. Oh well, no one's been accusing Joe of journalism lately, so I guess it's okay.

Joe, any chance of your picking up an illustrator to add funny drawings to you future comics? You're writing some amusing stuff, but it would be so much cooler with caricatures, like you and Hoeky in the Cone of Silence.

"Get that in your next column,Joe"
"Right, Chief!"

When I saw that headline, "Dialing the Republicans," I thought this post was going to be Joe's description of how he gets his "facts" before writing a column.

Joe how many supports did you walk in and how supporters did you have when you left.

I certainly hope you gained some there, because I think you have lost a few supporters here.

I wonder if Mr Klein perceives the reaction to his column, his subsequent gyrations, the exposure of Hoekstra with attendant embarrassment, and the official correction, to add up to consequences he will make a meaningful effort to avoid in the future. If so, I think the demonstrated (to Joe) unreliability of whispered skinny from GOP players and this new dynamic of repercussions for the smearing of Democrats is an important and welcome development.

Wow, Joe. You thoroughly mucked up that FISA story. Nice job. Makes me wonder why anyone would believe anything you write here. Personally, I skip your posts and go straight to the comments. Much more informative and entertaining. Are those cocktail weenie invites REALLY worth more than your integrity?

This was a good post. It's rather frightening, especially given that McCain and Huckabee were pretty humanesque last night in their defense of not torturing and not immigrant-bashing last night. Hopefully BScheetz is right, and Luntz skews his samples.

And a more accurate, more specific, more prompt correction would have diffused some of the lingering resentment you're seeing here.

I think the demonstrated (to Joe) unreliability of whispered skinny from GOP players and this new dynamic of repercussions for the smearing of Democrats is an important and welcome development. Posted by another david

What repercussions did Joe suffer? He got battered around some by the DFH's of the internets, but he was defended on the pages of the National Review, a publication Joe probably regards highly and with no small amount of fear. The internets, though, unlike the Weekly Standard, can be dismissed as the realm of partisans. From Joe's perspective, it's probably a win -- maybe those meanies at the Review will, out of pity, cut Joe some slack for being such a ferocious liberal.

The one real breakthrough here was the spectacle of a real, live Democrat, Rush Holt, actually hitting back. Except for Bill Clinton rattling cages by bringing up Gore and the 2000 election, after the treatment of his wife during the infamous "pile on" debate, it's something I can't recall seeing at all. Usually, Democrats just bend over and take this sort of thing. Perhaps if responses like Holt's become the norm, columns like Klein's and -- a necessary precursor -- columnists like Klein, will become rarer and rarer.

I will note that Holt had to go to the internet to get his message out, whereas the Republicans can go straight to Fox, and Rush, and from there to just about everywhere, to get theirs out. It's a substantially unequal playing field, which means the Dems have to work harder than the Republicans -- something they've shown no interest in doing.

Thanks for this post. I agree it's astonishing. I'd be interested in more info about the demographics of the group--how things trended in terms of age and region of the country.

And a more accurate, more specific, more prompt correction would have diffused some of the lingering resentment you're seeing here.

Well said.

Hmmm did Joe just admit to dialling Republicans? Wouldn't it be easier just to roll over in bed and poke them in the ribs? Or am I just imagining things because of my lack of background?

Hey Joke Line,

What is the difference between Armstrong Williams and Joe Klein?

Armstrong Williams is completely bald.

Hey Joke Lie,

I understand your next column is about how the Democrats surrendered to the Japanese on December 7 1941 (I understand an obese draft dodger is your source).

Apparently FDR waited until Dec 8 1941 to seek a declaration of war. Your secret sources have told you that is the reason why were attacked on 9/11.

Your secret sources have also told you that had George W. Bush been President back then, none of this would have happened.

To be sure, you will cite some sources who say that Pearl Harbor has nothing to do with 9/11 and that some people maintain that George W. Bush was President during Sep 2001.

However, your editor will say that you have neither the Time nor the intelligence to dtermine who is telling the truth.

Just one question though: is it true that the obese draft dodger likes young boys?

Joe,

Is it really news to you that the average Republican hates the poor?

Is it really news to you that the average Republican hates Muslims/blacks/Mexicans and would not mind torturing any of them?

How do you think Peter Hoekstra would have done at this? I bet he would would have pegged the meter low on Huckabee and McCain

As BScheetz posted above:

"Frank Luntz deliberately selects groups to produce the message he wants to produce. Former members of his "focus groups" at previous debates have gloatingly posted at FreeRepublic.com about how Frank molds the group to produce the desired outcome."

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz#Criticism

No wonder Klein is so popular in The Village. He questions nothing. What will it take for him to understand that he gets "access" because he is so easily played and regurgitates whatever he is told?

Whoever ghostwrote this post is still not helping you with the credibility, J/K.

"Frank Luntz deliberately selects groups to produce the message he wants to produce. Former members of his "focus groups" at previous debates have gloatingly posted at FreeRepublic.com about how Frank molds the group to produce the desired outcome."

I didn't know that, but I'm not surprised. I wonder how much of an open secret that is around DC. And why things like that remain secret.

I'll now say something nice about Joe Klein: At least he doesn't present Lutz as a neutral pollster or analyst, as the various NBCs often do.

Since by now Joe's bosses are following comments closely (or should be) I'd like to offer them some advice.

Clearly, you have to fire Joe. Best way would be to pay him off with a book deal. You can remainder it later. But if you decide to give him "one more chance" (you know, orders "from above"), here are some practical tips:

1. Cut off the expense account. No, really. Cab fare only.
2. Insist that he's actually at his desk for at least 6 hours a day, even if "nothing's coming right now".
3. Foist on him a highly literate english grad with big tits for "research" and have her fact check his earliest drafts and leak them to you.
4. Have IT copy both his email and web-history to you. Some people say he pleasures himself in poultry and you don't need any more surprises.
Good luck!

Admit it --- the criticism of Kos and bloggers about you especially how you handled the FISA story is justified.

Learn from this -- unless you are really thinking of just $$$$$$ and dont care about the truth.

I see the Chicago Tribune (which ran parts of Joe's original piece) has issued a correction of their own...

A Time magazine essay by Joe Klein that was excerpted on the editorial page Wednesday incorrectly stated that the House Democratic version of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act would require a court approval of individual foreign surveillance targets. It does not.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003679176

Bloggers should stop pestering Mr. Klein and familiarize themselves with the 20 basic Rules of Journalism.

Just think if the Mexican hating, pro torture Republicans select the cult member Romney as their candidate, the Democrats will be the only party in the race running a Christian.

What this little focus group tells us is that the GOP will lose the genral election. After all, most normal Americans don't like drowing people for sport or arresting and deporting much of our workforce...

http://www.political-buzz.com/

It wouldn't have been too hard for Frank Luntz to craft his Republican audience to get these results. This is the party the Republicans have carefully built through forty years of anger, hatred, and fear-mongering: about hippies, criminals, flagburners, blacks, gays, Hispanics, Arabs, Moslems, whoever they can currently whip up hatred for.

Anyone who is surprised that this is how they approach politics -- and this is the party they've built -- has been deliberately closing their eyes and ears for the past 30+ years.

Which, come to think of it, would describe Joe Klein more or less perfectly.

Let's see if any of this wonderful epiphany remains learned for more than a few hours.

Joe, the reason why I ask about the makeup of Luntz's test group, is that in terms of the larger population, white xenophobes may not be that significant. You may not need them to win elections. I realize I'm beginning to sound like a Paul Krugman groupie (quoting him for the upteenth time) but I wonder what you think of the last column he wrote in response to David Brooks:

[B]ecause conservative ascendancy has depended so crucially on the racial backlash — a close look at voting data shows that religion and “values” issues have been far less important — I believe that the declining power of that backlash changes everything.

Can anti-immigrant rhetoric replace old-fashioned racial politics? No, because it mobilizes the same shrinking pool of whites — and alienates the growing number of Latino voters.

I'd be curious to hear your take.

Klein you still suck

And when axed about Say Joe Klein, the Dial-A-Dreg meters consistently stuttered on a rock solid 2.

Planted CNN questioners for the DNC rule!

How is this different from giving Mr Luntz this space to post under the Time banner?

Joe Klein, the living definition of chutzpah, shows his face here again. Is there nothing that will make this pathetic man resign? Does he actually have to be pelted with rotten fruit and vegetables at public appearances before he grasps how universally detested he is among literate people?

Regardless of how well this sample group relates to the rest of the Republican portion of the US, I still find this account terrifying.
It frightens me that there are people who would willingly dismantle the foundations of the country they claim to love so much, just avoid any disruption of their priviledged lifestyles. And yet we've just been through seven years of just that.
Klein's post makes me wonder: is Bush just the most visible symptom of a deeper disease?

Joe:

I've just about run out of intelligent things to say other than that my profound disappointment in your methodology and character revealed during this episode increases daily.

Because I think that an informed citizenry is always a higher priority for our democracy than point-scoring for ideology's sake, I can't see much of a difference between propagandizing for the right, left or, as in your case, the "radical middle".

Don't you see that when you defend your inadequate knowledge on the basis of the "larger point", you're no different than the (long discredited and marginalized) academic neo-trotskyists, the Dinkinsist apologists and the international chauvinists of the 1970s that you (and I) abhor?

Before this episode, I believed that you and I probably could have had reasonable, impassioned, entertaining and civil debates about important matters affecting our country, in which we would have found that we agreed on some key points, and learned a few things in the process.

Now I believe no such thing.
Until it's proven otherwise, I will consider you from this point on to be the Ann Coulter of the "radical middle", and I have found over the course of my life that it is usually a waste of time to try to have an open discussion with rabid ideologues.

If you continue to litter your prose with inaccuracies, falsehoods and naked ideology masquerading as analysis, I and the many others you have let down will do our best to hold you publicly accountable, even if that's in lieu of your editors and publishers.

Sooner or later, there will be consequences, Joe.

Yours in disillusionment,
Stuart Zechman

Joke Line and Time has proven that they are propagandist supporters of the Neocon GOP. Their editorial changes to the story have proven that they are more interested in perpetuating the LIE that Klein dutifully transcribed from his Republican source and not informing the citizenry of the facts.

Shame on you.

The surge IS working in Iraq, Red China is refusing USN docking in Hong Kong, Iran continues to harden their nuke labs, Chavez continues to terrorize his own people if not the entire Southern Hemisphere and/or Cape Crap, Billary plants DNC questioners at CNN MeetUps, Stalin Junior has squelched any valid opposition in Moscow -- so Say Joe bravely reports on 30 union hall retirees moved to die in Florida, all subscribed to USA Today's cartoon opinions for the benefit of Gannett's troop bashing and more innocent dead pine trees.

Missionary Position Accomplished!

Sheesh, I go away for a few days and this controversy is still growing?

Hoekstra? A source for information? Come on.

This is yet another example where the cover up is worse than the crime. Sure, Joe got it wrong -- badly -- because he relied on a source he never should have, and he failed to do the homework necessary to get it right, because what he was fed so nicely aligned with his internalized Dems-are-bad-on-Defense narrative.

But what TIME has done since, in backtracking, defending, parsing, etc., has given this story incredible legs. How about a swift and simple retraction, ala the Chicago Trib?

Why is this a better course?

If Klein and Wankette mated, would you get another Jayson Blair, or another Janet Cooke?

Any time the foreign-born population in this country gets above 10% there are cries that we need to lock down the borders. Cureently the foreign-born population in thsi country is 12.%. For much of the 90's it was between 8-9%. That more than anything else explains the outrage. We had the same thing happen a century ago when folks came from places like Germany, Poland and Italy and didn't know english. They didn't assimilate as quickly as Americans wanted either. Most Americans take for granted that generations ago our acestors came to this country in search of a better life, yet there is a vocal minority who doesn't want to extend the same opportunity to a new generation. A sad and hypocritical commentary.

Joe,
You've got no cred.

I don't want Joe Klein fired.

I want Joe Klein to be a better journalist.

Taking Hoekstra's word at face value was not good journalism.

The Luntz piece here was interesting, but ultimately unsurprising. Republicans hate poor people, what a stunner. Next.

Republicans hate all people except WASPS and rich people.

"I attended ...group of--Republicans"

Wow, what a surprise. Any of them foaming from the mouth?

I am a Republican and I cannot believe what I saw yesterday evening. I honestly and sincerely cannot trust anyone of those candidates to be at the helm of our country. They are not prepared or ready to lead our country in these highly instable times. So, let's review their performance and who they are:

1)Tancredo wants to ethnically cleanse America. I am ashamed that this guy is member of Abraham Lincoln's party. I am ashamed that he is still in the race and that he is shaping and framing the discussion on immigration. He represents what is worst about country not the best.

2)Huckabee is more comfortable in a Baptist (I am a Baptist) revival tent than in the Oval Office. Seriously, are you folks telling me that Huckabee could be a president? No, seriously NO.

3)Romney has changed position so many times that I cannot keep it straight. I think he suffers from low self-esteem that is why he is constantly changing his mind to seek approval and recognition. Not that changing one's mind about a subject is bad, but it has to have some kind of rational behind it, and Romney's flip-flopping has none. He needs a booster shot of confidence and substance.

4)Guiliani has been on an ego trip since he announced. He knows best, does not listen to anyone, does not learn or evolve, does not accept criticism, and/or does not admit guilt or making mistakes. Briefly, he scares the living light out of me. He reminds me of Nixon, but on crack.

5)McCain has some serious PTSD symptoms. Did you notice how he clamps his jaws when he is asked a tough question or get a bit emotional? He reminds of me when I got back from Vietnam. He needs rehab not the presidency.

6)Thompson needs not and wants not be there. He wants to be roasting his old bones in sunny Florida. His wife should let him drop out and get it over with.

7)Ron Paul: Whoever advocates the elimination of the IRS and the Department of Education (just a reminder: I am a Republican) should not and must not be taken seriously?

8)Hunter: what is he running for? President of the county fair or a seat on the local school board? Come on people.

This is my quick evaluation of our republican field. They did not talk about energy, environment, trade, government reform, health care, the sub-prime mortgage crisis, our foreign policy, and the direction of or how they see our country in next 10 or 20 years. They spent their time talking about immigration with very racist undertones (except for McCain), the Bible and religion as if Article VI of our constitution does not exist, guns as if Wayne La Pierre is running their campaign, and abortion as if there is a pandemic of aborted baby sweeping the nation (while the stats state that abortion has been decreasing for the last 15 years).

I think I made up my mind and I am going to vote for democrat(s) this time around. I am at peace with my decision. I can trust any of the top 5 democratic candidates (Dodd, Biden, Clinton, Edwards, or Obama) to be my president, and he/she would do a better job than any of republican nominee. All the democrats need to do to win this presidential is to put up a warm body next to our brain-dead candidate. More seriously, I hope the democrats won't weaken their future nominee by having an all-out war in their primary because the last thing this country needs right now is one of those clown leading our country. If you think that Bush has been incompetent, wait until you see a Huckabeen or Guiliani or Romeny administration.

Joe,

Huckabee did not say "After all, these are children of god" at the debate. He did not say anything approximate to this, or express any such sentiment.

McCain, however, said, "And we need to sit down as Americans and recognize these are God's children as well."

Please refer to the debate transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/28/se.01.html

We already know that your magazine pieces aren't vetted and fact-checked, but do you *ever* run a post that doesn't feature at least one obvious and glaring error?

tevste - Yes! This goes to show that you can indeed see the light and shed your past ignorances! Join the winning team and vote Hillary. You'll be glad you did!

Welcome to the light side...

Perfect. Not only has Mr. Line decided "not to dignify our [so-called] insults with a response" (translation: address the issue which is far from resolved) but refuses to so much as say that. I've long suspected Mr. Line doesn't read the comments section - oh, he has the time all right, just not the inclination - and now I know he doesn't. He'd have to disavow himself of the notion that we're stupid.

PS. What the vast majority of posters have chosen to do - speak to the enormous elephant in Joe's room, not at face value to this post itself- is called, in Psych terms, "addressing the subtext." And that's no babble.

Joke Line.. or Coke Line?

Time4Tolerance

It is comments like yours that make so many republicans reluctant to vote for the democrats. Show some humility, and you might win this time around.