The KT Big Fat Debate Thread

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You'll pay for this. You can't always get what you want.70-445 / EX0-100 / MB7-517 / 70-642 / 70-293

I wish Obama had pushed the issue of McCain's voting record on the environment and on developing alternative energy further. His voting record is terrible. Yes - he is from the state Arizona, but No! He has never previously been for solar - or any other form of alternative energy! Not even here in Arizona. Obama statement about McCain's terrible record in that area was accurate. If you look at the facts, there is nothing new or environmentally positive anyone can say about McCain. Do not forget how "green" bush behaved when running against Gore. All smoke and mirrors.

Okay, I know I'm late to the party, but I just figured out that signing out and back in will allow me to comment, and KT, you earned my respect calling out the debate drinking game, now back to my beer.

Chris Matthews:

"Why didn't John McCain look at his opponent during the debate?"

The overwhelming inanity of our political press corps is amazing.

Thanks, dgopalan.

Cliff the idea being touted is that no one won and left leaning analysts are stating that it is bad for McCain cause he needed to win tonight to offset the last couple of days but also because this is mccain's strength

So the consensus I'm reading is that there was no clear winner? (I have no TV so I have to rely on hearsay until the Youtubes come up)

Olberman is going to be interesting for a change.

Already pointed out that McCain didn't wear a flag pin.

Posted by Rose:
Slowhand Ted, do swing voters want "calm, informed and reasonable?"

Well, it's the McCain campaign that wanted to make this into a character contest between the two candidates. Obama came across as more magnanimous and open. McCain sounded small and angry, like a mean-spirited drunk arguing sports history at a bar.

And yes, if the reaction line of the independents was anything to go by, the aggression by McCain was counterproductive.

why does Chris Matthews keep waving an imaginary microphone around? He almost hit Andrea Mitchell with it two or three times!

Slowhand Ted, do swing voters want "calm, informed and reasonable?" '

Compared to old, cranky, and sourpussed? Yes.

Slowhand Ted, do swing voters want "calm, informed and reasonable?"

Only fact checked: the all-knowing Henry Kissinger wants talks with Iran to start at lower levels. Thanks for that, a-holes.

Noun. Verb. 9-11!

In terms of content, I'd call it very much a draw.

In terms of style, I'd definitely give Obama the win. He came across as calm, informed and reasonable. McCain came across as petty and patronizing.

ABC promises to "fact check a little more"..."when we come back"

Serial gambler (and inferior moralist) Bill Bennett said something vaguely intelligent: In politics you're either on offense or defense and McCain scored by constantly saying Obama is wrong and Obama weakened himself by gracefully acknowledging too many times that McCain is right. Sigh.

McCain deserves to have every answer debunked with facts. Fail. He frankly deserves every misery in the book.

Bobo and Shields are both saying this was not a game changer.

Hammerlock, I noticed the reaction lines on CNN as well (infuriatingly addictive once you get watching them).

As soon as McCain starts with the direct attacks on Obama, independents' reaction dips alarmingly. I think he comes across as angry to Obama's affable. He doesn't look attractive when he's snarling and foaming.

McCain deserves to have every answer debunked with facts. Fail. He frankly deserves every misery in the book.

grape_crush:

Go look up what that term actually means.

Seriously, go look it up.

Axelrod to Obama (post-debate): "Stop agreeing with him!!!!!"

Jim Lehrer lost this debate. Dull and uninformative.

Seriously, this was bad for McCain. He just didn't look presidential. There's no point to anything if can't manage that.

Meanwhile Obama had him contained save for the moments involving Russia and 9/11.

The gang of professional imbeciles at MSNBC are awarding this to McCain.

I think McCain won, but it wasn't a game-changer. Obama's still on track for a win.

Alas, McCain's simplistic, emotional appeals may resonate more with the average voter than Obama's steely intelligence. Sigh.

Zechman the Concern Troll strikes again.

I quit watching about 2/3 of the way through. Did the phrase "GI Bill" seriously not pass through Obama's lips?

And he seriously gave McCain credit on torture despite the fact that his voting record is unambiguously in favor of it?

Good grief. McCain wins. Obama had too many chances to tag him and/or coax out a temper tantrum and let them all pass.

McCain won, Obama held his own.

US would be a better place if only it stopped meddling in other country's affairs. yay obama.

POW? Where's my jaeger?

POW!

POW POW POW POW POW

GULP!

You all may have gotten their first, but I wrote POW more!Q

Remember folks, Al Gore won his debates...

damn, there goes my shoe.

missed.

POW ref, shot!

McCain offers to cook BBQ for veterans? I mean, he skips voting for veterans benefits, but wants to play mommy.

And...ending with a...POW!

Oh he saved the POW line for the end but he worked it in.

McCain: POW!

Straight to hell.

PO! Drink!

POW!

Drink up!

POW!!!

It pisses me off that McCain can only attack as his close, but I think it's bad strategy. It makes him look small.

POW!

If Obama doesn't mention McCain thought the "too generous vet benefits" were out of line I am sooo going to throw a shoe at the tv.

McCain is up for reds, down for indies and blues.

Obama in his response was up for both.

--that's the election split, right there.

Also, McCain is trying the "repeat something to lend it weight" game with the "obama isn't ready" bit.
Problem is, you need to back up that assertion with, you know, facts. "I believe" won't sway anyone.

McCain looking agitated again.

Wow, McCain's strategy all night has been to lie, lie, lie. What a tosser. F him.

"The coup followed the 1999 war in Kashmir with India and was due to a power struggle with Sharif, not due to Pakistan being a "failed state.""

This is unarguably true.

Obama is now tying threads together nicely.

McCain can not keep repeating his stupid Al Qaeda in Iraq thing without somebody in the media calling him on it.

If the Shia take over in Iraq, that means that Sunni Al Qaeda will run rampant there?

It is so stupid. It's Bushian in it's stupidity.

umm..late posting this, but in the league of democracies, is mccain capt america or superman...obviously obama is batman

Iraq! Iraq! Iraq!

is mccain capable of turning his head to the left?

Obama gives McCain credit on torture? Fail.

Oops

McCain just badly misstated the history of Pakistan. For someone claiming extensive foreign policy knowledge, this is simply not acceptable. McCain said Pakistan was a failed state before President Musharraf came to power. That is not true.

Musharraf took power in a military coup in 1999 when he diposed Nawaz Sharif - who recently participated in the latest election. The coup followed the 1999 war in Kashmir with India and was due to a power struggle with Sharif, not due to Pakistan being a "failed state." The United States did not welcome the Musharraf coup. Instead the government of the United States imposed sanctions against this action.

Remember Pakistan had nuclear weapons in 1999. Did McCain believe that there was a failed state that possessed nuclear weapons? If he did he showed no concern at the time. The fact is McCain made a huge gaffe and demonstrated he has little understanding if the region.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-bergmann/major-gaffe-mccain-said-p_b_129780.html

nice. obama getting big bump off of the "foreign perception" bit.

1234 jinx!...y'all owe me a diet Coke...

Kinda disappointed in the line of debate questions. Really I was expecting more on domestic fronts then 20 questions about which countries we think are unsafe and if/why we should attack them.

So he brings torture into the 9/11 question, but doesn't say that when it came right down to it he voted against it?

Chemical sites! Yay! Mention CBS!

I was against torture before I voted for it but apparently now I'm against it again.

I'm with trifecta. If this was the first exposure you had to this info, it would probably be a non-mover.

Must admit, though, I've spent time in the backyard talking to the UCLA poly sci major (my kid) who is also watching/talking. Anecdotal: he has a roomful of college students glued to his TV. Will they vote? Yeah. But CA is not a swing state.

champion and grape_crush: pinky swear!

@Curseword: the insurance costs are paid for by us...insurance companies will not touch a nuke plant at all...

Nine eleven!!!

Who pays for these great nuclear plants? Are there really a lot of corporations chomping at the bit to build them? I imagine the insurance costs are really really high. Wouldn't they need some help being built from the government. Is this not pork barrel spending that McCain would veto?

oh creepy, doppelganger comments twice now.

oil dependency tied into making our country weaker in the world - niiiiiiccccceeee.

Obama tying foreign policy to energy. Nice.

Tying oil to security is a good move for Obama.

I think McCain is "winning", though that's subjective when talking about a debate. But Obama is holding his own, and like someone above said, McCain had to slam dunk this, and I don't think he has. McCain also has the better zingers.

If McCain were to sit down with the press -- without preconditions -- it would endorse everything they've ever written.

Risk reference 2: UKRAINE IS NOT WEAK!

Sooo...what's McCain's answer to the question?

Mmm. Basically the same as Obama's. Now another story about McCain's travels.

I wish McCain's writers would have worked up some new material for this debate. He's told that KGB joke like fifty times.

I had forgotten about McCain's ring-leading on the Russia-Georgia conflict. Another way he turned the campaign process into a farce.

And "I can pronounce achmedinajad on the first try, fool"

I'm 10 minutes behind!! Stupid DVR!!

Obama needs to stop with the "John is absolutely right."

North Koreans are 3" taller than the gooks. I know this my friends.

it's the cuban heels.

Names are definitely not Mccain's forte...

It's Sa-a-kash-villi...

Uh...yeah...they might have aggressed Georgia but Georgia antagonized them first. The Georgians thought we had their backs...boy were they wrong.

can somebody get grumpy to stand still? jesus christ.

With the 'bomb bomb Iran' and Spain digs, it's becoming apparent that Obama's strategy is to get McCain to blow a gasket and knock him out of his stride.

Appears to be working too. McCain is just short of developing that nervous facial twitch Herbert Lom developed at the mention of Clouseau's name in 'Return of The Pink Panther'.

It'll also help if we don't encourage little countries to do things that irritate big ones and then tell the little countries...hey sorry, you're on your own. Good luck

North Koreans are 3" taller than the gooks. I know this my friends.

Obama is holding his own on foreign policy, which was held out to the nation as McCain's obviously superior strength.

I don't know how anyone comes away from this thinking that Obama is unprepared for foreign policy issues.

We must take Yakutz! I want the 7 extra men for Asia!

John, look the Kissinger comment up on the Google.

Korea - they claim we break our promises, and we claim they break theirs.

McCain doesn't know what Kissenger said, because he can't figure out how to Google.

Actually...yeah...that's what we do (or I would at least).

Well, here is my mostly non biased opinion.

Both of them are doing ok.

I think McCain needed a clear win here though. This is "his expertise". I don't think either of them will be unhappy with their performances.

I doubt the polls will move much in either direction.

How do they know how tall the NKs are if they're the most repressive?

And reagan? Didn't he set down with the Soviets without preconditions?

So mccain will start a war with them, but not talk with them.

brilliant.

and racial profiling! Mccain breaking down.

Is American foreign policy centered on the concept of keeping Israel safe?

Senator McCain, you legitimize Ahmadinejad's comments by repeating them verbatim repeatedly.

The Spain slam! Yes!

McCain still won't agree to meet with the prime minister of… Spain.

I'm just wondering how the MSM is going to spin this as a win for McCain. KT any thoughts on this?

And McCain sobs again when the Zapatero gaffe is mentioned.

Not a good day for him.

Spain! flaring cheeks again.

Obama explaining to McCain how foreign diplomacy really works...

time-blogger, my mother was just wondering about the existential thing. I wonder if they mean it as a synonym for religious threat... but that's just a theory.

And it was nice to hear someone talk about the fact that Ahmadinejad isn't the dictator of Iran - he's not Iran's Saddam Hussein.

nice point too on who's the "most influential person in Iran".

it ain't ackma, acha, that guy who's name McCain can't pronounce.

McCain seemed to literally sob when Obama had to remind him that Ahmenijhad doesn't really run Iran.

He's bombing out, it's getting bad now already. I couldn't even fathom it happening this fast.

How can McCain say that we shouldn't talk to these people? Are we just going to bomb first and ask questions later from now on? Talking to people is not legitimizing anything. It's just being civil. We can't keep acting like the bully on the block brow beating people over the head with "do this or we'll bomb you".

The League of Democracies was a good idea the first time McCain heard Woodrow Wilson mention it to him!

AGH!! Obama just legitimated KISSINGER?!?!?! He'll serve time in Purgatory for that.

Let's not invite the Iranian mullahs over for tea.

cold war!

And "I can pronounce achmedinajad on the first try, fool"

Nice point - League of Democracies won't work as long as Russia and China are funding Iran - their pockets are a hell of a lot deeper than anyone else's right now.

achma, ackmadina, ackaminininjad...

youtube moment!

Also I don't think anyone would be surprised by how forceful Obama is being as compared to the primaries. The primaries are a family feud and Obama kept the gloves on for the most part. They are off tonight.

I wonder if Lehrer would like my Burke Institute notes on being an effective moderator?

Obama needs to make lots of sports metaphor...

People get them easier.

McCain selling the iran war already?

"Can that man stay on subject for more than 30 seconds? WTF does a bracelet have to do with Afghanistan?"

About as much as Eisenhower's reaction to some of D-Day's failures has to do with the economy and Wall Street greed.

Oh no!

That's "Revolutionary Guard", Barack.

Sigh...

Good for Obama to point out the way the Iraq war has strengthened Iran.

That's "Revolutionary Guard", John.

OOooo. Iran?

McCain wants to engage Iran using the Bush Doctrine. Palin says 'wha'?

Again with the League of Democracies.

Thanks Hammerlock

Is it me, or is there a lot of time and effort being spent to "make things clear".

Is there anything unclear about "we must not allow another holocaust."?

WTF is an "existential threat"? They're not going to find meaning in their threat?

McCain: against Holocaust #2. Refreshing.

Lehrer is flatlining on the CNN feedback graph.

I've got more sky miles than you.

Can that man stay on subject for more than 30 seconds? WTF does a bracelet have to do with Afghanistan?

McCain getting agitated.

McCain's cheeks are flaring cause Obama is kicking his butt.

Pakistan was kind of unstable before Musharraf did his coup'de'tat. Now its just...slighly more stable.

I'm really impressed with how well Obama is doing. Far above my expectationsd.

He is also getting under McCain's skin.

why does john mccain hate my grizzly bears?

Bracelets? Argh.

Its the bracelet wars!

Now McCain is changing the subject. Reagan and bracelets and...POW!

McCain climbs on his rocking chair, plays grampa

The only thing I agree with McCain on is Pakistan. It's a country with 160 million people that isn't radical, but does dislike America. Hostility is not a good idea.

The song line was great.

Somalia?

OMG!! He was against Ronald Reagan!!

"A 20th century mindset"

He's old.

A failed state in Pakistan before Musharref? WTF? Can someone elaborate on that?

McCain: "he watnz to invade pack-ee-stan. and TELL EM FIRST!"

Obama: "Uh yeah. Bomb bomb Iran? Ok then."

Golden.

OUCH! Bomb iran comes back!!

"sung songs about bombing Iran, I don't know how credible that is..."

Songs! Awesome.

McCain's smile is really starting to creep me out.

McCain is ready to follow Bin Laden to the gates of hell, or the Pakistan border, whichever place stands in his way.

Notice how McCain smiles and how his cheek thumps when he's angry?

The Surge will work in Afghanistan? Wow.

Stuart, I'm not sure he nailed that Surge is Working mantra as well as he could have. However, I guess my brain is tied into the fact that it didn't meet the political objective and there were other factors. I would have brought up Maliki as well.

Speaking of YOU WERE WRONG, Obama nailed him on the whole "Shia and Sunni will not fight each other" thing b.s. sold during the run-up.

After Saddam fell, the first thing the Shia did was go over the top celebrating the Battle of Karbala after years of repression. So the world got to see images of hardcore Shia tearing apart their heads bloody with scabbards vowing to destroy the Sunni.

The first thing I thought of when I saw those images was those patently false statements sold by McCain and the MSM. And Obama got him on it today.

Mmmm. Gonna be tasty going over the transcript for this debate and debunking the content.

I'm listening, James...this is an important debate moment right here...can Obama beat back the McCain Surge Is Working(tm) mantra?

Good call by obama--define the funding issue by strategy and openendness, not on the troops themselves.

YOU WERE WRONG!!! Someone is gonna make a cool video out of that and add in "time for change"

Senator McCain -- You were wrong, you were wrong, you were wrong. KaPOW!!!!

That was a great soundbite. And it would make a very effective YouTube video.

jarais: Obama referred to Bush's "orgy of spending"

KT, I thought there was going to be a central blog.

This is no good. Too spread out. I wanted to see the comments of all of the regular people. Obamish, Gunny, SZ, Kathy, where are they?

I hate to say it but McCain looks sincere. He's not conveying competency, ease, knowledge or eloquency, but sincerity may be more important.

Obama needs to seem less glib - he's best on Iraq. This is a serious occasion.

"McCain's going to punch Obama in the face..."

Clearly revenge for Gore affronting Junior's personal space in 2K. ;)

Seriously, McCain is still unable to shake Obama's constant charges of irresponsibility, and he is getting visibly frustrated.

P.S. Tags are broken on the live blog.

"My friends," "Miss Congeniality," and now the word "earmarks," are starting to get on my nerves.

Where is KT?

sports metaphors!

I like that Obama is looking at the camera every now and again...and doesn't whistle when he talks!!!

sorry...

Obama nailed the Iraq question.

Obama is definitely going to kick him in the shins.

He's mentioned twice keeping veterans' benefits strong - apparently that's okay unless of course, they happen to be too generous. Then he opposes them, and when it passes claims credit for it. Webb may kick him in the shins too.

Orgy?

How did I miss that?

McCain steering the debate towards the The Surge™

Man, I wish Obama nailed McCain when John said that he wasn't Ms. Congeniality. I wish Obama nailed him for saying that Ms. Congeniality is what is required right now to restore AMerica's relationships in the international community

Shorter McCain: Remember when we won the Iraq war?

The word "orgy" needs to feature more prominently in our national discourse.

He's thinking of his partner and soul mate when he says Ms. Congeniality.

Opposing Dubya a whole 10% of the time...Cause he's a maverick (and so is teh Palin!)

Lets pretend we are not spending a billion a week in Iraq. WTF? How many times will McCain repeat his stump speech talking points.

McGrumpy is starting to get ticked. How long does he have to go?

What is with all the Miss Congeniality references?!!!

Lehrer has driven me out of the room.

McCain's going to punch Obama in the face...

Unnecessary spending? How 'bout the war in Iraq?

McOld: We can't hand the health care sector over to the private sector.

But the financial sector? Go!

McCain's lying about Obama's health plan. Again.

Jim Lehrer is the big loser in tonight's debate.

What a clown.

Dude! I left HRC out of my drinking game!

bears are killing us though my friends.

But it's a lot easier to get a rise out of most of America by beating the pork barrel.

Amen.