September 26, 2008 10:50

Re: Big Fat Wrap-Up

Posted by Karen Tumulty | Comments (40) | Permalink | Trackbacks (0) | Email This

This was a weird one, given the bifurcated nature of it. It was supposed to be about foreign policy, but that's not what is on everyone's mind this week. As a result, Lehrer had to split it in half, and it didn't feel like either candidate got a groove.

Overall: I'd say it wasn't a game-changer. Both men did better, I think, than during their primary season debates. Neither made any big mistakes or committed any gaffes that I could discern. But this was McCain on what was supposed to be his home turf. He had a far clearer message with his constant references to Obama's inexperience and what Obama "doesn't understand." Obama seemed to lack a theme.

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Posted by 1200 | December 31, 2008 11:10 AM

Posted by q | October 30, 2008 6:41 AM

Far from it. Say again? Could you repeat that please?NS0-201 / 70-290 / 642-445 / 156-215.1 / 70-526

Posted by lauryn123 | October 22, 2008 9:44 AM

7:43 PM PST 9/27/2008

Very proud of the conduct of the Nephilim / Illuminati Warrior $enator McCain tactifully and strategically DEMONstrated last night. I know all of his Nephilim / Illuminati friends and family in "The Party" are too, including of course, "THE PRINCE", and the current Nephilim / Illuminati Warrior in the White House despite their differences. The $enator's training showed how strong The Force is with him. The $enator DEMONstrated that he can be trusted to tow "The Party's philosophy and agenda". I am eagerly awaiting the $enator's reception of the Sword, Torch, and Baton from the current occupying Knight, so that $enator McCain can solely push "The Agenda" from the Oval Office as planned. Even though we only need 4 more year$ there, in order to transition to "The Big Event", I believe the $enator has DEMONstrated enough faith for him to continue to hold our position in there for another full 8! I hope that my family and I will personally be continued to be counted worthy to po$itively participate and continue to benefit as we have the past 8 years. Everything is proceeding as foreseen and planned! "The Bailout" will help maximize our profit$ and pro$perity before the coming war with Iran. The liberal media has reflected this in their recent coverage of our orchestration of the current events and their public pollings. I am surprised that they even have the courage to go public with "Our Truth!". I hope this post will encourage you in "The Party" as well as assist the undetermined to join u$. It is such a joy to see things transpire as planned! Thank you for listening.

CHRI$Tian Verde,
Liberty Farms, Solano County, California, USA

This "Country First!"

$upport our troops, keep America free, VOTE McCAIN-PALIN!

"Drill, Baby Drill!"

"Bomb Iran Now!"

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Beloved Founding Father & 3rd American President: Thomas Jefferson

Posted by usvet | September 27, 2008 10:45 PM

Jake_Utah: I agree.

Case in point: the "John is right" obsession. Every time I turn on the news (both CNN and MSNBC), I keep seeing montages of all the times Obama said "John is right" or "Senator McCain is right," etc. (seemingly taken straight from that damned commercial), but no one seems to acknowledge that almost every one of those statements was followed by a "but," which was in turn followed by a nuanced addition or rebuttal to what McCain said. For instance:

"John mentioned the fact that business taxes on paper are high in this country, and he's absolutely right. Here's the problem: There are so many loopholes that have been written into the tax code, oftentimes with support of Senator McCain, that we actually see our businesses pay effectively one of the lowest tax rates in the world."

The pundits seem to think that Americans are so vapid or have such short attention spans that we'll hear and remember the "John is right" but not the actual substance of Obama's points. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I'd really like to believe otherwise.

Posted by Murdoc829 | September 27, 2008 1:29 PM

There has been a decisive swing during this election over the past elections. The group of undecideds and Independents. The yardstick for measuring success or failure in presidential debates has dramatically altered for this group. This is the precise reason why pundits who think that McCain won are scratching their heads in disbelief when they see poll results. They are keeping scores based on who poked, disagreed, ridiculed and criticized their opponent the most. And by those counts of STYLE, McCain earned more points. So that’s settled then – McCain won.

Oh but wait a minute, the polling with undecided and independents indicate that Obama won handily? Really? But why and how?!! Heres why – this election for the demographics of undecided voters has become all about SUBSTANCE. But pundits are still applying yesterday’s thumb rules to today’s elections.

So the pundits look incredulously at these undecideds and remark – “you mean substance actually means something to you? Does not who acted most bullying or dominant win the debate?? After all, that’s how all the previous election debates were decided”

And the undecided voter replies – “If it were all about style, why do you think we are not able to favor a candidate a year and half into this election? We can unwrap eloquence and cynicism to look for the meat we’re seeking. I can tell when a question was dodged and when it was addressed. I have online resources that help me verify facts quickly.”

This years undecided and new voters are highly intelligent and technology savvy. They stay current with blogs and forums. They’re looking for answers and they’re looking for change. Pundits brought their old yardstick to the debate as did McCain. Its time to toss those old formulas away and adopt the new. Don’t mock the intelligence of voters of the new generation.

Posted by Jake_Utah | September 27, 2008 11:59 AM

"Rose, check Halperin's site on an average day and you're as likely to find something that looks like a "McCain 08" fan site as you are to find something that resembles news. That's why.

Also, what you quoted, I didn't write that. I made a mistake with my italics tags so the "quoting" effect was lost."

FastEddie, sorry about the quoting mistake - the italics tags didn't seem to be working here. Anyway, I know about the McCain bias thing. But on this particular issue of debate grades, it's just a fact that he typically gives Obama very good grades. It doesn't make everything else Halperin does okay, but it does make his praise of Obama's debate performance very unsurprising. The one area where you really can't criticize Halperin for bias against Obama is in debate grades. I wasn't exaggerating when I said KO is more critical of Obama on that issue.

Posted by Rose | September 27, 2008 9:40 AM

how very odd.
i came away thinking that j. mccain has either been suffering from an overextended schedule that most lesser men would need toxic amounts of amphetamines to maintain, or, was completely insane, while b. obama had long since been to the restroom to sprinkle his face and make ready to dance a whipsong on his fourth rate, fast eddie felson impersonating, opponent.
i freely acknowledge that i may have gone blind, though...

Posted by spvix | September 27, 2008 6:33 AM

Rose, check Halperin's site on an average day and you're as likely to find something that looks like a "McCain 08" fan site as you are to find something that resembles news. That's why.

Also, what you quoted, I didn't write that. I made a mistake with my italics tags so the "quoting" effect was lost.

Posted by FastEddie | September 27, 2008 2:11 AM

"Even Halperin of all people is giving this to Obama, what else does one need?"

FastEddie, Why do people think Halperin gives Obama bad debate grades? I don't know anyone who isn't an official Obama supporter who has more of a record of liking Obama's debate performances. KO is far more critical of Obama's debate performances.

Posted by Rose | September 27, 2008 12:41 AM

Obama all the way, aside from McCain improving towards the end it was hardly close. Even Halperin of all people is giving this to Obama, what else does one need?

Jesus, you can almost picture Haplessin sobbing into his keyboard while typing that. What punishments will King Drudge have in store for him?

Posted by FastEddie | September 27, 2008 12:29 AM

Oh come on people, as a independent I am not tied to either party, but let's be straight, though both men presented good arguments, John McCain came off looking old and Bob Doleish. In our American Idol nation Obama rules. By the way as a individual I thought Barak ideas were closer to mine LC.

Posted by lsuecamp | September 27, 2008 12:24 AM

KT here again--

Okay, the pundits are giving it to McCain, and the network polls are giving it to Obama.

I have this impression that the pundits always get the debate wrong on the first night (assuming "getting the debate right" means predicting how voters see it). I vaguely recall the early spin in 2000 being that Gore whipped Bush in the first debate, but in fact voters hated him.

Posted by billiecat | September 27, 2008 12:11 AM

I remember after the Pennsylvania debate (maybe it was Ohio...) everyone thought Obama won, including the focus groups. The exit-polls said otherwise. Instant focus groups and those line graphs are unscientific - it's an artificial environment, and the sample sizes are usually too small. I really think McCain won. But it was only a small victory, and the continuing focus on the economy should help Obama. I just hope the MSM won't start worshiping McCain again if he does get a little bounce in the tracking polls. I can already see the new narrative: McCain triumphs after poll respondents count him out.

trifecta, Halperin always gives Obama good debate grades.

James, Los Angeles, I'm not getting the contradiction.

"Kissinger, speaking Monday at George Washington University along with four other former U.S. State Department secretaries, said the next president should initiate high-level discussions with Iran "without conditions," ABC News reported."

Kissinger's saying the President should initiate negotiations unconditionally, but not offer to meet with Iran's leaders unconditionally.

Posted by Rose | September 27, 2008 12:02 AM

J.J.: I like both Discipline and Beat very much, both with Belew.

Posted by superterrificdelegate | September 26, 2008 11:56 PM

What? No HTML?
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/09/16/Kissinger_Open_direct_Iran_talks/UPI-46971221579660/
Kissinger: Open direct Iran talks - UPI.com

and

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/kissinger-backs.html
Political Radar: Kissinger Backs Direct Talks 'Without Conditions' with Iran

Posted by James, Los Angeles | September 26, 2008 11:55 PM

Halperin has a headline up

Kissinger: Obama Misstates My View

The former Secretary of State says he does not support direct talks with Ahmadinejad.“Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level.”Obama said during the debate that Kissinger, a McCain adviser, supports presidential talks with the Iranian president.

Huh. That's funny because
//
Kissinger: Open direct Iran talks - UPI.com
WASHINGTON, Sept. 16 (UPI) -- Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger says the United States should begin direct negotiations with Iran over its nuclear enrichment program.

Kissinger, speaking Monday at George Washington University along with four other former U.S. State Department secretaries, said the next president should initiate high-level discussions with Iran "without conditions," ABC News reported.

Political Radar: Kissinger Backs Direct Talks 'Without Conditions' with Iran
Kissinger Backs Direct Talks 'Without Conditions' with Iran
//

September 15, 2008 6:16 PM
ABC News' Rachel Martin Reports: Former U.S.Secretary of State Henry Kissinger today told an audience in Washington, DC that the U.S. should negotiate with Iran "without conditions" and that the next President should begin such negotiations at a high level.

The former Nixon and Ford U.S. Secretary of State early in the year indicated his belief that the U.S. should hold direct talks with Iran when speaking to Bloomberg Television.
//

Posted by James, Los Angeles | September 26, 2008 11:53 PM

KT: Obama seemed to lack a theme.

My vote would have been the one from St. Elmo's Fire.

More seriously, having a 'bifurcated' debate makes it harder to establish one, unless you're John McCain and the theme you're pushing is "Obama's naive". Which Obama showed to be wrong.

Anyhow...The first round of fact checking is already here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080927/ap_on_el_pr/presidential_debate_factcheck

Posted by grape_crush | September 26, 2008 11:48 PM

KT kingcrimson rules.

Do you think they stayed good even into their Adrian Belew period?

Posted by J.J. | September 26, 2008 11:44 PM

This Canadian agrees with kingcrimson. The Democrat was once again the far superior debater, in both form and substance. But we all know how much that meant four years ago, when Kerry beat Bush three times and still lost the election. Here's hoping, for the world's sake, that Americans will not be fooled thrice.

Kudos to all the great commenters at Swampland for keeping up the fight for honest discourse.

Posted by Senator-Elect | September 26, 2008 11:44 PM

I thought Obama missed opportunities to weigh in more on the economy. It's what's on everyone's mind and he didn't spend nearly enough time on it.

And I agree he lacked a theme.

But he did go toe to toe with McCain on foreign policy and came out fighting to a draw, perhaps surprising some people...

Posted by J.J. | September 26, 2008 11:40 PM

Thank you, vicious maniac!

Posted by jarais | September 26, 2008 11:38 PM

Jarais, here you go:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/26/debate.mississippi.transcript/index.html

Posted by vicious maniac | September 26, 2008 11:37 PM

Can someone post a transcript of the debate when it is out?

Posted by jarais | September 26, 2008 11:36 PM

KT here again--

Okay, the pundits are giving it to McCain, and the network polls are giving it to Obama. kingcrimson rules.

Posted by Karen Tumulty | September 26, 2008 11:34 PM

Halperin gives Obama a A- and McCain a B-.

Does that mean he has to grovel to Hugh Hewitt tomorrow and apologize?

Posted by trifecta | September 26, 2008 11:33 PM

KT here--

AverageJane2: You are absolutely right. Bifurcated?

Posted by Karen Tumulty | September 26, 2008 11:31 PM

Karen Tumelty is dead wrong. Obama clearly won this debate. McCain sounded like a fool.

Posted by kingcrimson | September 26, 2008 11:29 PM

Obama all the way, aside from McCain improving towards the end it was hardly close. Even Halperin of all people is giving this to Obama, what else does one need?

http://thepage.time.com/2008/09/26/engagement-but-no-big-moments/

Posted by vicious maniac | September 26, 2008 11:29 PM

In addition to what time-blogger said, 2 things stood out for me, though only because I do my research on news stories and issues:

The first one was when McCain commented on Obama telling both Russia AND Georgia to stand down - that was because it was an offensive action by Georgia that gave Russia an excuse to invade South Ossetia, (which they'd obviously been planning for a long time anyway).

The second is that McCain, (no surprise), nor Obama (unfortuantely), gave the true reason the surge 'worked' - because the opposing forces took the opportunity to go out and commit genocide in a number of areas before hand, so that the fighting had pretty much died down by the time the surge 'took effect'.

Posted by HeltUrquad | September 26, 2008 11:23 PM

I completely agree with KT: Obama was lacking a theme (which is a problem because it makes him look directionless and disengaged) but it still wasn't a game-changer.

Posted by Rose | September 26, 2008 11:21 PM

Bifurcated? Coulda said "divided" and come off less pompous right out of the gate.

Anyway...

Bravo to Obama for NOT HAVING A THEME!!! What is wrong with you -- this is NOT entertainment. Obama answered the questions, if you absolutely have to satisfy your need for a theme then his theme was one of respect; something McCain showed none of.

Posted by AverageJane2 | September 26, 2008 11:16 PM

Obama's theme seemed to be You're right, John...

Sometimes John was.

I thought that one of the moments that particualrly turned Obama's way was when McCain was totally hung up on preconditions
There were several spots where Obama's ability to keep his cool were beneficial.

Posted by Paul Dirks | September 26, 2008 11:15 PM

I second superterrificdelegate. Thanks, KT!

My personal opinion is Obama won by not losing this debate. However, I have no idea how this will be spun tomorrow and what the soundbites will be.

I am looking forward to Biden-Palin. Let's hope Andrew Sullivan doesn't explode due to the fire of his righteous Palinfury.

Posted by jarais | September 26, 2008 11:13 PM

"Neither made any big mistakes or committed any gaffes that I could discern." Other than McCain stating that Pakistan was a failed state at the time of the coup (untrue, and if true, why didn't he bring this up at the time, given that they had nukes?). He also seemed to admit that the U.S. has tortured prisoners when he said we need to make sure don't ever do it... again.

Posted by time-blogger | September 26, 2008 11:09 PM

Also, thanks for hanging out with us tonight, KT.

Posted by superterrificdelegate | September 26, 2008 11:07 PM

Obama's theme seemed to be You're right, John. Although Jeffery Toobin gave it a more charitable reading than I did.

Posted by ivb | September 26, 2008 11:06 PM

Also, we can't forget the Obama didn't sound like a scary muslim arab factor.

Obama probably helped himself some with conservative democrats tonight.

Posted by trifecta | September 26, 2008 11:06 PM

Tie goes to he runner, though. McCain needed to hit it out of the park and couldn't do it, so this one has to go to Obama.

Posted by superterrificdelegate | September 26, 2008 11:05 PM

About Liveblog: The Debates

Michael Grunwald is TIME's National Correspondent. Read more

Jim Poniewozik writes TIME magazine's Tuned In column, about pop culture and society. Read more

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